Kavanaugh

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moda0306
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:58 pm

Tyler wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:38 pm
sophie wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:04 pm
I did think his rant about the left-wing conspiracy was a bit over the top, and a bit too paranoid-sounding for a Supreme Court candidate.

Here's his actual statement:
"This whole two-week effort has been a calculated and orchestrated political hit, fueled with apparent pent-up anger about President Trump and the 2016 election, fear that has been unfairly stoked about my judicial record, revenge on behalf of the Clintons and millions of dollars in money from outside left-wing opposition groups."

The Clinton comment clearly raised a few eyebrows as a personal opinion that would be hard to prove, but the other statements are undeniably true. IMHO, reducing his statement to paranoia is just a way of ignoring reality.
"Undeniably True."

Your and my definitions of "undeniably true" are undeniably different. This is partially a hit-job, as Senators don't care much for ethics, but it was also a legitimate and very limited investigation into a very disturbing claim about his nature.

He was being a whiner and dodging questions. That alone was almost disqualifying, but more important than that is this guy is a disaster for the 4th amendment and executive power, something we should be far more focused on for folks in powerful positions than whether they had false accusations lobbed at them.

You didn't see Obama sniffling like a wimp when people were accusing him of being born in Kenya and a knuckle-dragging 20% of this country you can always count on bought into it. Hillary never cried when 40% of R's bought into her being part of a child sex ring.

There were a parade of horrible accusations I heard my right-leaning friends and dipshits in the conservative media overtly believing or parroting. Let's lose the melodrama on the righteousness of this process. Lindsey Graham looked like an utter fool calling this the worst thing he's seen in his life in politics.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by stuper1 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:07 pm

Everybody says that they are tired of politicians and other public figures who sugarcoat things and won't just say things clearly. Then, when we get some people who just say what they really feel (e.g., Trump and Kavanaugh), they complain about that too. Some people are just whiners.

This whole thing is obviously a left-wing hit job. Even if every word of the charges were true, I personally would have no trouble if the guy were confirmed. As it is, it seems that not one word can be corroborated. Given the left's desire to see Kavanaugh rejected, it's not hard to imagine that some loony leftist woman could just be making this stuff up.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Benko » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:15 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:07 pm
This whole thing is obviously a left-wing hit job.
Agree.

Moda imagine if after Dan Rather's fake documents were discredited** someone came up with another and worse fake document. And than another. You don't see it this way, but most of us (and based on polls lots of voters) do see it this way.

** I use this as an analogy of tactics not to discuss Bush (who I know you love).
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Xan » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:17 pm

I don't think the Clinton thing came entirely out of left field. He's saying people are angry about Kavanaugh's involvement in the Starr probe.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by stuper1 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:55 pm

Here's a great comment I came across today on another forum:

"If the biggest bully or the biggest drinker or dopehead in my high school class of ’76 was nominated for the Supreme Court, my initial reaction would be, “Wow, he’s changed. He’s made something of himself. That’s a good thing.” Not, “Damn! He’s fooled them into believing that he’s something he’s not!”

I think most conservatives go along with this idea of personal redemption, whether they have a Christian faith or not. They go along with the idea that a person improves himself or herself in one way or another, and becomes far more than they were in high school, sometimes overcoming self-imposed obstacles.

Leftists believe that only gangbangers, dope dealers and prostitutes and minority criminals are in need of – and capable of – redemption. Everyone else has privilege, so redemption isn’t for them.

Of course, it’s all political. Whether he is kept from the court because he attacked a girl or because his testimony when defending himself is inconsistent in some minor sense is irrelevant to leftists. Keep him off the court is the ultimate goal.

Anyway, leftists made a calculated risk, a very big one. In trashing him without due process, they’ve antagonized a possible member of the Supreme Court, one who’ll be replacing a justice who was often a key swing vote. And at the moment, it appears as though they’re going to lose big. Or maybe the left going will fall back on a very contemptuous and radical strategy: we won’t follow the mandates of a court that has someone like Judge Kavanaugh on it."
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:04 pm

Benko wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:15 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:07 pm
This whole thing is obviously a left-wing hit job.
Agree.

Moda imagine if after Dan Rather's fake documents were discredited** someone came up with another and worse fake document. And than another. You don't see it this way, but most of us (and based on polls lots of voters) do see it this way.

** I use this as an analogy of tactics not to discuss Bush (who I know you love).
You think Ms. Ford is "discredited?" Poor analogy. She simply "might be wrong." That's about it.

And even if she is lying, it would be no stretch of facts at all to have it be motivating to other women to come out who were in-fact assaulted by Brett.

What polls are you talking about?
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:50 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:04 pm
Benko wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:15 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:07 pm
This whole thing is obviously a left-wing hit job.
Agree.

Moda imagine if after Dan Rather's fake documents were discredited** someone came up with another and worse fake document. And than another. You don't see it this way, but most of us (and based on polls lots of voters) do see it this way.

** I use this as an analogy of tactics not to discuss Bush (who I know you love).
You think Ms. Ford is "discredited?" Poor analogy. She simply "might be wrong." That's about it.

And even if she is lying, it would be no stretch of facts at all to have it be motivating to other women to come out who were in-fact assaulted by Brett.

What polls are you talking about?
Benko,

Unless I'm misinterpreting your bit about "seeing it this way," it appears you may have the polls wrong...

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/03/65405410 ... -from-1991

I'm totally open to any other opposing polls you might have in mind...
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by jacksonM » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:12 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:27 am
All this being said and the past few days, I have moved my needle to where I am not at all sure how much of what Ford is saying is true vs. mis-remembered anymore.

In the same breath, though, I'd have to say that given Kavanaugh's comments, he definitely is a Republican conservative, and I still don't understand how anyone with such an obvious bias should be on the court, whether left or right. We should strive to search for middle ground people to be on the court.

I understand that is a fantasy. :(
You don't think Kagan and Sotomayor had "obvious bias"?

As for Ford I never found her credible at all and I couldn't understand why even Republicans were saying that she was. Trump apparently saw things the way I did and said so yesterday, much to the chagrin of everyone but the base.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Benko » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:09 pm

Moda,

I started thinking Ford was sincere and her story need to be looked into. OTOH Kavanaugh's testimony was very credible and was also that of someone who was sincere. In addition Kavanaugh has what, 65 women writing letters attesting to his character. Offenders tend to repeat and not just have one incident. They can both kinda be correct and Ford be an actual victim of whatever happened (with a different "attacker"). However, then it comes out about her coaching someone about polygraphs, the "fear of flying", the claustrophobia, the 2nd door, in addition to people she said could verify her story all denying any knowledge of it.

So was she an actual victim? No evidence to back that up. Is her story based on recovered memories (notoriously inaccurate)? Seems more likely one of these 2 possibilities vs her just making story up but then why all the lies? And if K actually attacked her, why all the lies?

Odds of false rape accusation perhaps 5-10% (don't remember source but doesn't matter). Odds of false rape accusation in the 11th hour of a supreme court nomination? This is the MO of the left. And then the less and less credible accusations? Clearly they think (and are usually correct) that Rs are very stupid.

Apologies for the wording about the polls. I didn't type that (I haven't been paying any attention to polls) must have been autocorrect which is often very annoying.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by Tyler » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:57 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:58 pm
Your and my definitions of "undeniably true" are undeniably different. This is partially a hit-job, as Senators don't care much for ethics, but it was also a legitimate and very limited investigation into a very disturbing claim about his nature.

Nah -- I don't think we're that far off. Embrace the freeing power of "both". Politics sucks.

I agree Ford's accusations deserved investigation and concede that calling out Clinton was unnecessary (even if absolutely believable because of Kavanaugh's ties to the Ken Starr Clinton investigation). But I think reasonable people can also understand that the entire dog & pony show "has been a calculated and orchestrated political hit, fueled with apparent pent-up anger about President Trump and the 2016 election, fear that has been unfairly stoked about [Kavanaugh's] judicial record... and millions of dollars in money from outside left-wing opposition groups." It never had to unfold this way, and it was largely orchestrated for maximum political effect (and decidedly not in Blasey Ford's best interests) by Feinstein.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by stuper1 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:16 pm

The leftists like to say that the US is the laughingstock of the world because we elected Trump as our president. To that I say: 1) I couldn't care less whether anybody else likes our leader, and 2) I don't believe that most of the world is laughing, because I think that much of the world actually respects a leader who conspicuously puts the interests of his own country first.

What I want to know is why aren't the leftists worried about the rest of the world laughing at the US for this manufactured Kavanaugh spectacle about things that supposedly happened in high school? I can't imagine that the rest of the world isn't laughing uproariously at us for this. Not that I really care, but again this is something that the leftists and their minion media like to say all the time about Trump.
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Re: Kavanaugh

Post by moda0306 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:32 am

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:16 pm
The leftists like to say that the US is the laughingstock of the world because we elected Trump as our president. To that I say: 1) I couldn't care less whether anybody else likes our leader, and 2) I don't believe that most of the world is laughing, because I think that much of the world actually respects a leader who conspicuously puts the interests of his own country first.

What I want to know is why aren't the leftists worried about the rest of the world laughing at the US for this manufactured Kavanaugh spectacle about things that supposedly happened in high school? I can't imagine that the rest of the world isn't laughing uproariously at us for this. Not that I really care, but again this is something that the leftists and their minion media like to say all the time about Trump.
Some on the left care about this. Some on the left don't care much. Many probably feign their concern, just as many conservatives feign concern on a number of micro-topics to help them assemble an embarrassing narrative towards "the left," whatever that is.

Other countries probably don't care much about the nomination norms of Supreme Court judges. What many folks in other countries probably find odd is how we give these people lifetime appointments, and while I wouldn't classify that under "embarrassing," I totally agree with that sentiment.

Of far-more concern than whether power treats power (dem senators treat a judicial nominee or Repub senators treat other senators) should be how power treats those without it. Either the masses or individuals. Focusing on the former in lieu of the latter on a consisten basis shows a nakedly partisan slant. One that we should, imo, be embarrassed about, though not because any foreigner tells us we should be.

And Donald Trump may be conspicuous, but the idea that he's acting in American's best interest is ridiculous. He's acting, as the elite does, in American Capital's best interest. I know some of us are good savers, but let's not kid ourselves about who our lot is in with... it's those who sell their labor for compensation.
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