Gold outflows, bitcoin inflows

[bitcoininthevp]

Im curious if bitcoin really is becoming a competitor to gold. Im a fan of both assets.

Since October:

More than $3bn of inflows into Grayscale Bitcoin Trust
More than $7bn of outflows from Gold ETFs



Does anyone else have other data sets on this?

[Ugly_Bird]

Im curious if bitcoin really is becoming a competitor to gold. Im a fan of both assets.

Since October:

More than $3bn of inflows into Grayscale Bitcoin Trust
More than $7bn of outflows from Gold ETFs



Does anyone else have other data sets on this?

Most likely it is a temporary thing while BTC is bullish.

[bitcoininthevp]

Most likely it is a temporary thing while BTC is bullish.

But regardless, do you think people are actually taking billions out of gold and putting it into bitcoin?

[Ugly_Bird]

Most likely it is a temporary thing while BTC is bullish.

But regardless, do you think people are actually taking billions out of gold and putting it into bitcoin?

I do not think so. At least yet :-)

[perfect_simulation]

I think there probably is some gold flowing to bitcoin. A lot of traditional investors view Gold/Bitcoin as insurance, not strictly as an inflation hedge.

In my view bitcoin is a currency like cash, although without the backing of a government. Of 25% cash, I put 2.5% into crypto.

[barrett]

Most likely it is a temporary thing while BTC is bullish.

But regardless, do you think people are actually taking billions out of gold and putting it into bitcoin?

Days like today sure make it look like this is what's happening. At the moment (noon EST) Gold is off by 3% and Bitcoin is up by 7%.

[Don]

What happens when bitcoin is regulated and destroyed?

[bitcoininthevp]

What happens when bitcoin is regulated and destroyed?

Don, seems rather aggressive and off topic for the thread but Ill take a crack at a response which includes gold.

What happens when gold is regulated and destroyed?

Is it harder to regulate & destroy gold or bitcoin?

Who is the one regulating bitcoin in this scenario and how? Will other jurisdictions follow along or be emboldened to take an opposite stance?

Does regulating bitcoin destroy it?

Usually when people say something like this they mean, will bitcoins price go down if the US makes it illegal to buy/sell/hold bitcoins? Some responses in this thread for you to review: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11661&p=218930#p218930

It is actually harder in many respects to stop or regulate bitcoin when compared to gold. Jack booted thugs cannot come to your house looking for bitcoin and find any physical thing like they can with gold. Governments dont hold much if any bitcoins like their huge gold positions which can make price manipulation easier. Physical gold is transacted physically which violence and governments are better at stopping than some numbers floating by on the Internet. Gold, due to its achilles heel of being in the physical world, has caused it to largely centralize in a few spots making control easy.

US banning bitcoin would not be a good thing for bitcoins price, but it also wouldn't mean "the end". Miners can mine nearly anonymously with a small footprint in the physical world. Users can transact in largely private. Holding bitcoin can be impossible to detect in the physical world, etc.

[Ugly_Bird]

Holding bitcoin can be impossible to detect in the physical world, etc.

But cashing out would be difficult.

[bitcoininthevp]

Holding bitcoin can be impossible to detect in the physical world, etc.

But cashing out would be difficult.

It would be harder but still easier than cashing out of a banned gold.

Bitcoin: "What is this bank transfer I see to your account?" "Oh, consulting"
Gold: "The postal gestapo has detected gold in an outgoing mail item. Please report to jail."

[Smith1776]

I just own both. Problem solved.

[bitcoininthevp]

Update on flows from JPM, via https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/jpmor ... tion-hedge

[Ugly_Bird]

Update on flows from JPM, via https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/jpmor ... tion-hedge

Even though those are apparent correlations, the y-axis are 10 fold different in scales. The difference flows out somewhere else.

[Ugly_Bird]

Update on flows from JPM, via https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/jpmor ... tion-hedge

Even though those are apparent correlations, the y-axis are 10 fold different in scales. The difference flows out somewhere else.

Thats exactly how I weight it atm 10:1.

So, while crypto might affect gold prices, there is some other driving reason. I have no clue what it is.
Also, when bitcoin crashes, loosing 80% after reaching the max in the current halving cycle, gold should break out free from the crypto affect.

[Ugly_Bird]

Some other reason for what?

For the "correlation" on the graph.

[seajay]

Im curious if bitcoin really is becoming a competitor to gold.

Distinctly different, similar to the difference between traditional art and digital art.

[bitcoininthevp]

Im curious if bitcoin really is becoming a competitor to gold.

Distinctly different, similar to the difference between traditional art and digital art.

This is a bit vague. Sure the digital vs non-digital difference between gold/bitcoin is there, that’s obvious. But are you tryin to say something besides that?

[seajay]

Im curious if bitcoin really is becoming a competitor to gold.

Distinctly different, similar to the difference between traditional art and digital art.

This is a bit vague. Sure the digital vs non-digital difference between gold/bitcoin is there, that’s obvious. But are you tryin to say something besides that?

Physical gold can be both/either anonymous and private, bitcoin isn't private, every transaction is visible in the blockchain (the distributed electronic public ledger). In certain situations the privacy of tangible can be extremely valuable.

[Jack Jones]

Physical gold can be both/either anonymous and private, bitcoin isn't private, every transaction is visible in the blockchain (the distributed electronic public ledger). In certain situations the privacy of tangible can be extremely valuable.

Ever try to fly to another country with gold on your person?

[yankees60]

Physical gold can be both/either anonymous and private, bitcoin isn't private, every transaction is visible in the blockchain (the distributed electronic public ledger). In certain situations the privacy of tangible can be extremely valuable.

Ever try to fly to another country with gold on your person?

I never have. What is the outcome if one does?

[seajay]

Physical gold can be both/either anonymous and private, bitcoin isn't private, every transaction is visible in the blockchain (the distributed electronic public ledger). In certain situations the privacy of tangible can be extremely valuable.

Ever try to fly to another country with gold on your person?

Never had the need to do so. If/when the case to move gold to another country arose then there's a plethora of methods that could be employed outside of trying to personally transport it via a single airline trip.

Its important to have a paper trail that demonstrates legal title, otherwise gold could be confiscated as being the proceeds of illegal activities. But paper trails can be formed to lead in many different directions. Gold stack in a safe isn't mine, yes I bought it originally and here are the receipts, but as per this witnessed document I gifted it to my son years ago and they've just left the gold in this safe for safe keeping, I believe as a intended gift to his children when they get married. Or if he is the one under the spotlight, the gold in the safe is dads, and here's are the receipts that shows when/where it was bought (whilst the embers of the witnessed gifting papers float up the chimney).

If being passed on to others in exchange for cash/whatever then its no longer private anyway as otherwise that cash could be seized as being the proceeds of illegal activities. In some situations is may be appropriate to liquidate, electronically transfer the proceeds and repurchase again in another country, where that gold might then have records of it having been gifted.

Or it might simply vanish, seemingly all lost in a poker game years ago, where 20 years later it and the proof of purchase are suddenly discovered buried whilst digging up the back yard.

Digital trails in contrast to paper trails have a public ledger where in many situations inspection can lead to indirect association to particular individuals/time/places and as such may be neither private nor anonymous.

[bitcoininthevp]

Im curious if bitcoin really is becoming a competitor to gold.

Distinctly different, similar to the difference between traditional art and digital art.

This is a bit vague. Sure the digital vs non-digital difference between gold/bitcoin is there, that’s obvious. But are you tryin to say something besides that?

Physical gold can be both/either anonymous and private, bitcoin isn't private, every transaction is visible in the blockchain (the distributed electronic public ledger). In certain situations the privacy of tangible can be extremely valuable.

This isn't so cut and dry as you outline.

You can meet in an alley and exchange dollar bills for a gold coin, yes. You can also meet in an alley and exchange dollars for bitcoins. There is a public transaction on the bitcoin blockchain, yes, but that doesn’t give up privacy entirely. Sure, your counterparty could taddle on you, but that’s the same case with the in person gold transaction as well (maybe they have video evidences).

Additionally there are ways of exchanging bitcoins physically, with no on chain fingerprint, with something like opendimes.

Additionally you could use localbitcoins or Bisq to facilitate a buying or selling of bitcoins (uses an escrow) with varying payment methods and traceability.

Additionally there is a technique of joining a bunch of bitcoin transactions together, called a coinjoin, to obfuscate coin origins and attain more privacy. This can be done without some central party taking control of your coins at any point. And no KYC.

Additionally there are centralized mixing services, though I wouldn't recommend that.

Additionally, I could turn my dollar bills into USD equivalents (stablecoins) and then use a decentralized exchange, that doesn’t need my KYC info, to purchase coins.

Additionally I could swap "my" bitcoins with an equivalent amount of someone elses bitcoins in a process known as a coinswap.

Additionally, similar to the coinswap (within the same chain/currency), I would swap my BTC with LTC in a cross chain atomic swap (swapping between chains). This can be done without anyone knowing of anyones identity.

Additionally you could buy bitcoin and not have an blockchain fingerprint. For example I buy bitcoins in the alley and someone sends me bitcoins on the lightning network which doesn’t have a record kept forever like the blockchain.

None of these is fool proof and there are considerations (legal, privacy, trust, physical security, etc) for each. But it’s the same with alley gold.

[Xan]

I think what this shows is that some people are willing to comment on topics and make definitive conclusions about something without actually having done any research into the subject matter. I believe everyone is entitled to their personal opinions but when it comes to facts, it would help to take an approach where you are inquisitive like, "please correct me if my understanding is wrong" rather than simply stating things as if they were facts or using blanket statements.

Keep in mind we're talking about replacing the backstop, SHTF asset, whose primary characteristic is that it's physical and thus completely simple, with some rigamarole on the computer.

If you want people to make that switch, then you're going to need to not ridicule them for being confused about how this-or-that property of gold can be duplicated by perfectly following some 18-step process.

[bitcoininthevp]

I think what this shows is that some people are willing to comment on topics and make definitive conclusions about something without actually having done any research into the subject matter. I believe everyone is entitled to their personal opinions but when it comes to facts, it would help to take an approach where you are inquisitive like, "please correct me if my understanding is wrong" rather than simply stating things as if they were facts or using blanket statements.

To be fair, Id be surprised if anyone on this forum knew about those tech I mentioned. That’s mostly the reason I posted it.

[seajay]

I think what this shows is that some people are willing to comment on topics and make definitive conclusions about something without actually having done any research into the subject matter. I believe everyone is entitled to their personal opinions but when it comes to facts, it would help to take an approach where you are inquisitive like, "please correct me if my understanding is wrong" rather than simply stating things as if they were facts or using blanket statements.

To be fair, Id be surprised if anyone on this forum knew about those tech I mentioned. That’s mostly the reason I posted it.

I'm with Xan

Out of the clutter find Simplicity - Albert Einstein

The complexities of BC is just unnecessary clutter/risk.
Given a nail (gold) a simple hammer (physical) works for me, even though there may be alternative complex gizmos that involve walking through a minefield to maybe do a similar job. Yes there may be experts that can better navigate the minefield, but even experts sooner or later can get caught short.

For me a blanket dismissal is reasonable given this is a PP forum Gold section.