A good time to be a vegetarian?

[Mountaineer]

A good time to be a vegetarian?

According to a story in Slate, the rising cost of meat in grocery stores may give us all a chance to see how we'd like being vegetarians. The price of meat is being affected by all sorts of things.

Pork: a deadly pig virus is decimating the pork supply

Beef: the domestic cattle herd is the smallest it's been since 1951

Chicken: ok for now, but there's a rooster fertility issue which could affect the chicken supply in the future

Feed: Ongoing conflict in Ukraine—a major exporter of corn and wheat—has left farmers facing higher feed prices for what livestock they do have.

Who among us knew that we exported corn and wheat from the Ukraine? Our country with its endless fields of corn and wheat?

Vegetables on the other hand have seen only modest price increases so they become more attractive...

But, if you're paying attention to the news, you'll have learned about all the fruit recalls due to a Listeria contamination at the packing plant in California. Trader Joe's, Costco, Walmart, Ralph's, and others have been asking those who purchased the various affected items to either toss them or bring them back for a refund. Even Wegmans alerted customers that baked goods with fruit should not be eaten.

What this all means is food can be tricky no matter the cost or the type.

So, beans and rice .... or continue with the filet?  Man knows all .... or nature once again trumps science?

... Mountaineer

[Tyler]

Who among us knew that we exported corn and wheat from the Ukraine? Our country with its endless fields of corn and wheat?

Well, the US currently burns half of its annual corn production for fuel to meet federal ethanol standards.  It's a classic case of economic incentives and unintended side effects. 

We're not vegetarians but we do enjoy a vegetarian meal or two a week.  I don't think I could sustain it full time, but properly prepared it's quite good.  There are more options than you realize, especially when you consider international cuisine (Indian, Thai, etc) with heavy vegetarian populations.

[Mountaineer]

Who among us knew that we exported corn and wheat from the Ukraine? Our country with its endless fields of corn and wheat?

Well, the US currently burns half of its annual corn production for fuel to meet federal ethanol standards.  It's a classic case of economic incentives and unintended side effects. 

We're not vegetarians but we do enjoy a vegetarian meal or two a week.  I don't think I could sustain it full time, but properly prepared it's quite good.  There are more options than you realize, especially when you consider international cuisine (Indian, Thai, etc) with heavy vegetarian populations.

Depressing.  Another politics gone astray scenario!  When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?  The state does not know all .... again.  Save us from ourselves. 

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

I've been looking into this book called The Mindful Carnivore by a vegan turned hunter. I live in the city, but my compromise is that I only buy from sources I know: pasture-raised pigs and grass-fed beef. In the latter case, my vendor has a vegetarian sister working on the farm.

[Tortoise]

The price of meat (especially beef) has been kept artificially low for years, primarily due to heavy government subsidization of corn farming. It has directly lowered the price of corn and indirectly lowered the price of corn-fed cattle.

So if meat prices are rising, I'd say they're simply becoming more realistic in terms of the meat prices we'd see in a less distorted market. Expensive meat is certainly the historical norm; in most eras it has been far cheaper to be a vegetarian than to eat meat.

I think a big part of that is simply that all of our energy ultimately comes from the sun, and converting solar energy into human energy is more efficient when fewer intermediate steps are taken (energy is wasted at every conversion step). When you're a vegetarian the equation looks like this:

Sun --> plants --> people

By contrast, when you're a meat-eater the equation looks like this:

Sun --> plants --> animals --> people

The former is a two-step process, whereas the latter is a three-step process and therefore significantly less efficient. Less efficiency means more resources are required to get a certain level of energy into people's bellies, which means higher expense.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if people seem surprised as meat becomes significantly more expensive than alternative vegetarian foods... they probably shouldn't be. It's the historical norm, and it also makes thermodynamic sense. Government interference has simply skewed our common sense on this matter.

[WildAboutHarry]

[quote=Tortoise]Sun --> plants --> people

By contrast, when you're a meat-eater the equation looks like this:

Sun --> plants --> animals --> people

The former is a two-step process, whereas the latter is a three-step process and therefore significantly less efficient. Less efficiency means more resources are required to get a certain level of energy into people's bellies, which means higher expense.[/quote]

Grazing animals can convert (thanks to gut micro organisms) cellulose from all sorts of things that we cannot eat (grass, etc.) into human-edible products.  It is a very efficient process to have grazers convert grass to meat, milk, etc.  Adding all the "finishing" at the feed lot with corn, etc. adds unnecessary cost and is inefficient (but very tasty!).

Pigs and chickens can convert all sorts of things we humans wouldn't touch into tasty meals.  Again, it is the method used (confinement, processed feed) that is inefficient compared to some level of "free ranging".

We humans are meat eaters.

And I am not overly concerned about the food supply.  We have it better than just about any time in history.

Bon apetit.

[dualstow]

When you eat beef, you're eating a grass salad that's been pre processed(in a good way).
Edit: wild About Harry already said it better above while I was typing.

Tortoise: as far as cost goes, doesn't it depend on quality? I mean a grocery cart full of good vegetables costs way more than the same volume of McDonald's hamburgers. I guess economy of scale and other factors may trump thermodynamics.

[Tortoise]

Pigs and chickens can convert all sorts of things we humans wouldn't touch into tasty meals.  Again, it is the method used (confinement, processed feed) that is inefficient compared to some level of "free ranging".

That's a good point. On marginal land, raising animals that graze is a good way to extract energy from it and convert it to human food since the land can't really be farmed. I guess I was thinking more of arable land when comparing the efficiency of farming vs. animal production. Thermodynamically, it seems like humans should be able to extract more energy from a plot of arable land by growing human-edible plants on it instead of grazing animals since the animals are another "middle-man" between the sun and humans. But I admit it's possible I'm mistaken on that notion, and I may have not seen all the right facts and figures regarding the energy efficiency of farming vs. animal grazing.

Tortoise: as far as cost goes, doesn't it depend on quality? I mean a grocery cart full of good vegetables costs way more than the same volume of McDonald's hamburgers. I guess economy of scale and other factors may trump thermodynamics.

Oh, quality definitely matters. But if you go to, say, Whole Foods and compare the cost of a pound of dried rice and beans to the cost of a pound of fish or pastured beef or chicken, the rice and beans are going to be a lot cheaper.

If McDonald's used its massive efficiency of scale to produce plant-based foods instead of meat-based foods, my guess is that they could supply more overall energy to more people at a given price level. But that's just a hunch on my part based on "thermodynamic reasoning" similar to what I said above; I don't have the supporting facts and figures at my fingertips.

(BTW, I am not a vegetarian. I love eating meat. In fact, in a few minutes my wife and I are headed out to have a steak dinner. Good steak is a rare treat for us... a luxury.)

[Tyler]

If McDonald's used its massive efficiency of scale to produce plant-based foods instead of meat-based foods, my guess is that they could supply more overall energy to more people at a given price level. But that's just a hunch on my part based on "thermodynamic reasoning" similar to what I said above; I don't have the supporting facts and figures at my fingertips.

I don't doubt that, but McDonald's is already doing pretty well as-is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink ... story.html

Describing the McDonald’s double cheeseburger as “the cheapest, most nutritious, and bountiful food that has ever existed in human history”? might seem beyond fanciful, but according to the author of Freakonomics, it is not as absurd a suggestion as it appears.

[WildAboutHarry]

[quote=Desert]The worst part in that double cheeseburger is probably the bun. [/quote]

I see a marketing opportunity for McDonalds:  "The Quadruple Cheeseburger".  That would halve the bun/burger+cheese ratio!

[Mountaineer]

The worst part in that double cheeseburger is probably the bun.

I see a marketing opportunity for McDonalds:  "The Quadruple Cheeseburger".  That would halve the bun/burger+cheese ratio!

When I read the first part of your sentence, I thought you were going to advocate using two slabs of beef for the outer shell and dispense with the bun entirely.    That way you could have a slogan like "two all beef patties, special sauce, letuce, cheese, pickle, and an all beef bun - yum".

... Mountaineer

[Xan]

The worst part in that double cheeseburger is probably the bun.

I see a marketing opportunity for McDonalds:  "The Quadruple Cheeseburger".  That would halve the bun/burger+cheese ratio!

I do always get the Triple at Wendy's for just that reason.  And I understand (from an episode of Jeopardy, oddly enough) that they'll make you a "Grand Slam" 4-burger if you ask for it.

[Benko]

two slabs of beef for the outer shell and dispense with the bun entirely.    That way you could have a slogan like "two all beef patties, special sauce, letuce, cheese, pickle, and an all beef bun - yum".

... Mountaineer

new Wendy's paleo burger.  Available for a limited time.  Get yours now.

[Mountaineer]

I love meat.

As my brother says, "If the good lord didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them outta meat."

I like meat very much also.  A side benefit is if I eat enough, fast and fatty enough, I'll get to see Jesus sooner!

... Mountaineer

[Tyler]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.kfc.com/doubledown/

[/quote]

[moda0306]

When I read the first part of your sentence, I thought you were going to advocate using two slabs of beef for the outer shell and dispense with the bun entirely.    That way you could have a slogan like "two all beef patties, special sauce, letuce, cheese, pickle, and an all beef bun - yum".

... Mountaineer

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.kfc.com/doubledown/

Forget about the meal... That PICTURE should be banned by the FDA.

[WildAboutHarry]

When I read the first part of your sentence, I thought you were going to advocate using two slabs of beef for the outer shell and dispense with the bun entirely.    That way you could have a slogan like "two all beef patties, special sauce, letuce, cheese, pickle, and an all beef bun - yum".

Good thinking, but where to stop?  If you have ever read Plato and a Platypus Walk into a Bar the phrase "...its turtles all the way down..." might resonate here.

[l82start]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.kfc.com/doubledown/

i got exited when i saw the commercial for those, they just looked so yummy...
sadly, the reality was that the commercial was filmed using a "little person's" hands to hold the sandwich, and while tasty, the high price, and the sandwich being gone in two bites left me sad and disappointed...

[Mountaineer]

Just eat a couple of sticks of butter.  Some saltines if you have to.  More flavor, excellent source of calories, relatively cheap.  Or, a tub of lard is even better value. 

... Mountaineer

[gizmo_rat]

<kfcdoubledown.jpg>
Oh my word thats actually real, I thought it was a photoshop creation. We've not yet had the pleasure here, although I'd probably want a beef burger in there to 'eat the rainbow'.