Parenthood

[Pointedstick]

And that waste not only causes environmental pollution, but it also wastes work and effort because those resources had to be created and they benefit no one.

So I guess what I am driving at is that a better, cleaner, more "utopian" society could be created if people were not controlled so much as that they were provided better clearer information (water down the drain is clearer than electricity) and allowed to make decisions without being bombarded 24/7 by advertising and marketing dominated by companies whose sole purpose is to sell them something. I think advertising should perhaps be limited and not allowed to enter so freely into lives through television, radio, and print media.

I think you sometimes over-emphasize advertising and corporate brainwashing. While it's true that these things exist, my belief is that these influences can't make you do things you don't actually want to do; all they can do it push you in a direction you were already heading, or give you a direction if you were directionless. That's why strong-willed people seem to be pretty much immune to such messages, while conformists and the weak-willed fall prey to them at every turn.

If I go to the mall or marketplace, I would not be opposed to someone advertising their product in that location. I just don't think my children should be exposed to some corporations message because they are watching sesame street and trying to learn to spell and count.

My son is not exposed to any corporate messages. How? Simple. No TV. We don't even have a television hooked up to a set-top box or anything. Everything we watch has to be on a laptop, which as you can imagine, limits it. You can watch Seasame Street and Mr Rogers and a whole host of awesome kids shows for free online with no commercials, even. I did recently get an Amazon Prime subscription for access to their Mr. Rogers catalog, but it was well worth it. $80 a year for a near-endless supply of Mr. Rogers as well as free two-day shipping!

If you want to limit your children's exposure to this sort of thing, it's actually easy. You just have to be willing to give up certain things in exchange. No different from anything else in life.

[Xan]

My son is not exposed to any corporate messages. How? Simple. No TV. We don't even have a television hooked up to a set-top box or anything. Everything we watch has to be on a laptop, which as you can imagine, limits it. You can watch Seasame Street and Mr Rogers and a whole host of awesome kids shows for free online with no commercials, even. I did recently get an Amazon Prime subscription for access to their Mr. Rogers catalog, but it was well worth it. $80 a year for a near-endless supply of Mr. Rogers as well as free two-day shipping!

That is great to know, PS.  My 11-week-old is still a ways away from watching TV, but it'll come more quickly than I expect, probably.  I am a huge Mr Rogers fan.  I think he's the attention-span antidote to, for example, Bill Nye and all the other shows which are incredibly frenetic.  Will definitely look into your solution when the time comes.

[Pointedstick]

There are 50 Mister Rogers episodes available on-line at http://pbskids.org/rogers/.

Yeah, and Amazon has hundreds more once you've watched those five times each and are starting to go nuts. 

To be clear, I'm under no illusions that I can keep my son from advertisement forever, nor do I want to. He has to learn at some point how to cast a critical eye towards well-engineered attempts to persuade him using the science of human psychology, but I feel like that's a subject I'll be much better equipped to teach if I'm not already fighting against corporate brainwashing.

Then again, what do I know? Despite the fact that my son is exposed to very little gender-stereotype-reinforcing media, he still very clearly gravitates toward toy vehicles and depictions of machines. Go figure. Maybe by the time he's four, he'll want to be a soldier or a firefighter or a construction worker as much as your daughter wants to be a princess. Becoming a parent did terrible damage to my skepticism of genetic determinism, a sentiment that my own super-liberal father will admit to when my mom's not around to hear him!

[Pointedstick]

By the way, Xan, 11 weeks? Congratulations! How are you holding up? And more importantly, how's the missus holding up? So many transitions…

[doodle]

That's a lot of federally funded television for a libertarian household, don't you think your kids would be better off with commercially funded shows like Jerry Springer or Cops? Or at the very least there should be at least 3 minutes of commercials for every 10 minutes of programming telling the kids to pester their parents for sugar packed snacks and juice drinks or some toy that they have to have. You guys are lucky to live in an Internet age and have the money and technological saavy where you can buy videos for your kids and shelter them from the maelstrom of manipulation of wants. My parents didn't have that option, at least I was lucky enough to grow up most of my life overseas where I had no interest in watching television in a foreign language. I remember how it was always shocking though to return to the united states from Europe and observe the massive difference in commercialization. To me coming to the united states was a bit like what Americans feel like when they visit Disneyland

[flyingpylon]

It's relatively easy to keep your kids in a protective bubble when they are infants or toddlers.  The real challenge comes when they start hanging out with other kids, whether that's at school or in the neighborhood, etc.  You start out thinking you won't compromise on certain things but then you'll be amazed at what other parents let their kids have or do, and it will wear you down after a while.  My kids are 12 and 9... so all I can say to those of you with younger kids is "good luck"!  (and we haven't even hit the teen years yet)

Not sure what this has to do with peak oil, lol.

And congrats to Xan and his wife... as I like to tell new parents, you have no idea what you've gotten yourself into. 

[Xan]

Thanks, everybody!  Yes, there are a lot of transitions.  We're holding up okay.  Mostly we're finding out there are some high highs and some low lows.  (Yesterday had some lows; I think it might have bled a bit into my behavior on the forum...)  If I weren't working at home, and my wife weren't able to quit, we'd really be up a creek.

Flyingpylon, you're right: we had no idea, and I'm sure that'll continue, well, forever.  :-)

[gizmo_rat]

[] Becoming a parent did terrible damage to my skepticism of genetic determinism..

I recall in my teens my mum making a cryptic comment along the lines of "having kids is like having your faults paraded in front of you" didn't know what she meant until I had kids myself.

As much as anything it's a lesson in self acceptance, some aspects of your personality/behaviour weren't ever really under your control, but you don't see it until it arises in your children.

[doodle]

I'm surprised actually by the number of people that decide to procreate in a modern industrial society. I guess the genetically programmed biological urges must be quite strong. If I lived on a farm and needed help I would probably have kids, but I get just as much pleasure tutoring or coaching kids or hanging out with my friends kids and then letting the parents deal with all the tantrums, expenses, etc. etc.

I actually think that child rearing should be a community affair anyways and that kids would grow up best if they were raised by a collective of adults instead of primarily by their own parents...

[Xan]

I recall in my teens my mum making a cryptic comment along the lines of "having kids is like having your faults paraded in front of you" didn't know what she meant until I had kids myself.

As much as anything it's a lesson in self acceptance, some aspects of your personality/behaviour weren't ever really under your control, but you don't see it until it arises in your children.

Yes, I'm learning an awful lot very quickly right now, about myself and life in general.

I actually think that child rearing should be a community affair anyways and that kids would grow up best if they were raised by a collective of adults instead of primarily by their own parents...

Well, he's got us, plus a large extended family, Godparents, and our network of friends both at and outside of church.

If you're advocating for the state to raise people's children for them, I'm having trouble coming up with anything more horrifying.

[Pointedstick]

I actually think that child rearing should be a community affair anyways and that kids would grow up best if they were raised by a collective of adults instead of primarily by their own parents...

I think you're advocating for the "it takes a village" approach, but let me tell you right now that telling parents how you think kids ought to be raised when you don't have any yourself is not an approach that's likely to result in much success--whatever the goal may be.

[doodle]

Have you read Walden 2 by BF skinner? Something like that....

[Mountaineer]

This is not peak oil, but peak congratulations to Xan.

Hang in there Xan!  As a former boss of mine once said to me when I was having a bad day, "Ive seen it go on for weeks like this ......... then get worse! 

My experience with my kids (who are now over 40) is there will be many, many really high "ups" and many, many low "downs".  If I had it to do all over again though, I'd not change much if anything.  Just thank God for your vocations as father and mother, do your best, and then you will slowly come to realize (my case) that it is all in God's hands anyway.  Enjoy the ride, treasure the moments, and above all appreciate the gifts God has given you to enjoy, nurture, sing and cry with.

... Mountaineer

[Xan]

Thanks for the congratulations and advice!  It's going to be a great ride.

[WildAboutHarry]

Thanks for the congratulations and advice!  It's going to be a great ride.

Just remember, once they turn 40 they are on their own

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for the congratulations and advice!  It's going to be a great ride.

Just remember, once they turn 40 they are on their own

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!  What are you smoking?  (I do believe you are in WA state, right?) 

... Mountaineer

[WildAboutHarry]

Thanks for the congratulations and advice!  It's going to be a great ride.

Just remember, once they turn 40 they are on their own

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!  What are you smoking?  (I do believe you are in WA state, right?) 

... Mountaineer

No smoke.  I am in CA, on the way to WA.

And for the record, both of mine (well under 40) are on their own.  Thank goodness!

[Mountaineer]

Just remember, once they turn 40 they are on their own

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!  What are you smoking?  (I do believe you are in WA state, right?) 

... Mountaineer

No smoke.  I am in CA, on the way to WA.

And for the record, both of mine (well under 40) are on their own.  Thank goodness!

Mine too are out of the house and on their own with their own families to care for .... Ooops, I said on their own .... perhaps we should ask Kshartle for a few dozen premises to prove they are "on their own" 

... Mountaineer