Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

Post by MediumTex »

As the world celebrates the life of Nelson Mandela, it surprises me that so few people talk about how in this age of strident anti-terrorism efforts, Mandela's past is actually quite troubling.

Here is a bit about Mandela's activities leading up to a 1961 arrest:
Eventually, Mandela's arguments won over the ANC, which voted to establish a separate and independent military organ, Umkhonto we Sizwe, or "Spear of the Nation" (or MK, for short).  In June 1961, Mandela sent to South African newspapers a letter warning that a new campaign would be launched unless the government agreed to call for a national constitutional convention.  Knowing that no such call would be forthcoming, Mandela retreated to the Rivonia hideout to began planning, with other supporters, a sabotage campaign.  The campaign began on December 16, 1961 when Umkhonto we Sizwe saboteurs lit explosives at an electricity sub-station.  Dozens of other acts of sabotage followed over the next eighteen months.  (Indeed, the government would allege the defendants committed 235 separate acts of sabotage.)  The sabotage included attacks on government posts, machines, and power facilities, as well as deliberate crop burning.

Mandela spent much of the early months of the sabotage campaign at the Rivonia safe-house, where he went by the name of "David."  At Rivonia, Mandela met with other leaders to shape strategy and plan a possible future guerrilla war against the South African government.  His goal, he always said, was not to establish a government ruled by blacks, but to move to a multi-racial democracy that would abolish repressive laws that separated African families, restricted their travel, imposed curfews, and denied other basic human rights.  In February 1962, Mandela left South Africa to garner support from foreign governments for the goals of the ANC and to receive six months of military training is Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.  Acting on a tip, probably from the CIA, South African officials arrested Mandela shortly after his return in October.

LINK
When people talk about Mandela, it is often as if he were the Martin Luther King, Jr. or Gandhi of South Africa.  The reality seems to be that he was more like the Yasser Arafat of South Africa.

To my knowledge, Mandela never renounced violence as a tool for effecting political change.

It goes without saying that the Apartheid regime in South Africa was oppressive and that its demise was almost certainly a good thing, just as the end of segregation in the U.S. was a good thing for our country.

If, however, Martin Luther King, Jr. had committed dozens of acts of sabotage and violence in his campaign to end segregation, would he have a holiday named in his honor today or would he have been tried and convicted as a violent criminal?

It's just peculiar to me that Mandela is treated as a saint by many when he always struck me as a wise and reflective person, but also as a ruthless politician who had a lot of blood on his hands.

It's ironic that in many parts of the world today, U.S. drones routinely incinerate very Mandela-like individuals. 

Maybe Mandela just lived that rare life of a violent revolutionary who somehow came to stand for something other than violent revolution.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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Did his actions ever result in deaths, or were they attacks on property?

Aggression in the face of oppression of one's individual sovereignty has been met by violence by many that we regard as heroes today.  Nonviolence is more difficult, and if done right, usually more effective.

But if our founding fathers are people to look back fondly on (in spite of some character flaws, and using violence to achieve their goals), then I think it's pretty safe to view any violence that occurred in context of the government that they were violent against, and especially how they grow out of that phase into offering a truly viable alternative.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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One often makes a hero of those who fit their own idea of worthiness (we could go down the rabbit hole of discussing morals again so be careful ... be very careful).  Others view the same person with contempt, wrath, and disdain.

Just think about recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize  ;D
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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moda0306 wrote: Did his actions ever result in deaths, or were they attacks on property?

Aggression in the face of oppression of one's individual sovereignty has been met by violence by many that we regard as heroes today.  Nonviolence is more difficult, and if done right, usually more effective.

But if our founding fathers are people to look back fondly on (in spite of some character flaws, and using violence to achieve their goals), then I think it's pretty safe to view any violence that occurred in context of the government that they were violent against, and especially how they grow out of that phase into offering a truly viable alternative.
That depends on how far you want to extend Mandela's responsibility for people acting under his leadership.  If you think that a general is accountable for what his soldiers do, then the body count from violence perpetrated under the leadership and direction of Mandela is pretty high.
In his book Long Walk to Freedom Nelson Mandela wrote that as a leading member of the ANC’s executive committee, he had “personally signed off”? in approving these acts of terrorism, the pictures and details of which follow below. This is the horror which Mandela had “signed off”? for while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism after the Rivonia trial. The late SA president P.W. Botha told Mandela in 1985 that he could be a free man as long as he did just one thing: ‘publicly renounce violence’. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser Pres F W de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line? Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced the use of violence to further the ‘cause of freedom’.

LINK
The site above is definitely an anti-Mandela site, but I am linking to it because it includes both descriptions AND pictures from some of the bombings committed by the MK wing of the ANC with Mandela's approval while in prison.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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I'm not intimately familiar with Mandela's actions, but humans have a fundamental right to resist oppression.  They don't have a right to win.  Many don't.

I leave pacifism to my sheep and thank them for not resisting my oppression to much when it comes time to make some lamb chops.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

Post by smurff »

All of what you wrote, MedTex, makes me think of Mandela being more like George Washington than like Ghandi. 

Fighting over oppression is not pretty, no matter which side you're fighting on.  One of the things about Mandela was his ability to get the oppressed and the oppressors to sit at the same table, see commonalities, and move forward without as much recrimination as is typical when one side "wins."  Even his jailers respected him.

We revere different types of leaders for all sorts of different reasons.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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smurff wrote: All of what you wrote, MedTex, makes me think of Mandela being more like George Washington than like Ghandi. 

Fighting over oppression is not pretty, no matter which side you're fighting on.  One of the things about Mandela was his ability to get the oppressed and the oppressors to sit at the same table, see commonalities, and move forward without as much recrimination as is typical when one side "wins."  Even his jailers respected him.

We revere different types of leaders for all sorts of different reasons.
+1. Nonviolent opposition to oppression is great, but most times we don't hear about it working so well because the nonviolent are simply shot before they get to rousing speeches.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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I would appreciate a news account that went something like this:
Celebrated terrorist and revolutionary Nelson Mandela died today. 

Unlike terrorists of more recent vintage, Mandela's form of terrorism was celebrated by people all over the world as a means that was justified by the ends. 

Mandela's seeming gentleness and silky smooth delivery made it easier for many to overlook the brutality of the attacks on civilian populations that occurred under his leadership prior to the overthrow of the sitting government and his assumption of power.

Former U.S. President George W. Bush attended a memorial service in South Africa and had this to say about Mandela: "When I first heard the news that Mandela had died, I actually thought that Morgan Freeman had died because I always got those two guys mixed up.  But anyway, Nelson Mandela was a great statesman and leader.  Back in Texas, we call people like Mandela Negro Desperado Terroristo Statesmanero.

President Obama was more reflective in his praise of Mandela to a group of supporters: "In many ways Mandela was an inspiration to me.  Our careers were actually quite similar.  I mean, we were both born in Africa, right?  [laughter and applause].  Another thing that Mandela and I have in common is that we are both Nobel Peace Prize winners.  We are different, however, in that Mandela committed most of his acts of violence and brutality BEFORE he won his Nobel Peace Prize, while I waited until AFTER I won mine to begin my acts of violence and brutality.  The world will miss Nelson Mandela.  He reminded us that violent resistance to a sitting government that you don't like really can work, and that cozying up to a murderous thug like Colonel Qadaffi in Libya in exchange for financial support doesn't have to damage your image as a distinguished statesman."
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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We didn't need Mandela to remind us that violent resistance against a government we don't like can work. That's what all those fireworks are for every 4th of July.

If you want to make a sarcastic news release, I suggest more focus on any civilian casualties as opposed to general violence. An American condemning violence in the fight against an oppressive regime is a tough sell at best.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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RuralEngineer wrote: We didn't need Mandela to remind us that violent resistance against a government we don't like can work. That's what all those fireworks are for every 4th of July.

If you want to make a sarcastic news release, I suggest more focus on any civilian casualties as opposed to general violence. An American condemning violence in the fight against an oppressive regime is a tough sell at best.
I'm okay with a body count associated with political change.  What bothers me is acting like it didn't happen because you find the guy who did it charming.

I feel the same way about Che Guevara and his groupies.

If the truth is that sometimes terrorism is necessary to build the kind of society you want to live in, then I think that the U.S. should modify its messaging so that the "War on Terrorism" becomes the "War on Islamic Terrorists That We Don't Like."  I think that would be a more accurate way of describing the mission.

I didn't mean for my news release to sound especially sarcastic.  I was just trying to put some truth into the mouths of a couple of guys who don't necessarily speak the truth all that often.

It bugs me to see someone adored without telling the whole story about how he came to prominence in the first place.  I'm fine with adoring a political leader, but I just wish that there were more people out there saying "Nelson Mandela's greatness teaches us that sometimes the scattered body parts of women and children in a train station are necessary to change society for the better."  Once statements like that were out there, we could then have a debate about whether they are true.

If such statements are true, then maybe we owe an apology to some of the "evil doers" around the world.  Instead of saying that we are picking them off from the air because they are evil, maybe we should just say that we wish to prevent their desired form of political change from occurring (which we do in most cases).

If civilian attacks are an appropriate tool in effecting political change, then it shouldn't spark such outrage when it occurs, and to the extent that it DOES trigger outrage, the outrage should be applied equally to all perpetrators of such acts.  For example, I think that Osama bin Laden was a really bad person who orchestrated some really gratuitous attacks on civilian targets, the most obvious of which occurred on 9/11, but I also look at what Harry Truman did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that ALSO seems like pretty gratuitous attacks on civilian populations, except on a vastly larger scale.

What does anyone else think?  The stuff above is obviously just MHO.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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MediumTex wrote: What does anyone else think?  The stuff above is obviously just MHO.
This is basically what I think about all the conservatives falling all over themselves to heap praise on the man....

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/att ... berty.html

I also recommend Ilana Mercer for her take on Mandela. Having escaped from South Africa with what money she could hide in her shoe she wrote a book about what became of her former homeland under so-called "democratic rule" with the unflattering title of "Into the Cannibal's Pot". Her latest column refers to Mandela as the Che Guevara of Africa.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

Post by MediumTex »

ns2 wrote:
MediumTex wrote: What does anyone else think?  The stuff above is obviously just MHO.
This is basically what I think about all the conservatives falling all over themselves to heap praise on the man....

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/att ... berty.html

I also recommend Ilana Mercer for her take on Mandela. Having escaped from South Africa with what money she could hide in her shoe she wrote a book about what became of her former homeland under so-called "democratic rule" with the unflattering title of "Into the Cannibal's Pot". Her latest column refers to Mandela as the Che Guevara of Africa.
That's exactly what I was looking for.  I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks that the whole "Mandela the Saint" narrative is a bit contrived.

I knew if I hit the pinata enough times something interesting would fall out.
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

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MediumTex wrote: I knew if I hit the pinata enough times something interesting would fall out.
Well, if you liked that take-down this one is even better....

http://takimag.com/article/mandela_what_the_obits_omit_jim_goad
Simonjester wrote: a list of Mandela quotes at WND http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/the-real-mandela-in-his-own-words/
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Re: Nelson Mandela-A Mixed Bag

Post by MWKXJ »

>I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks that the whole "Mandela the Saint" narrative is a bit contrived.

Mandela's lionization fits perfectly well with the Baby Boomer generation's worldview, IMHO.  Boomers, raised in the stable 1950s, seem to believe that the shrill tantrums leveled against their parent's traditions will never ultimately destroy their own generation's inheritance.  Boomers are often prone to romanticize the outsider, to diminish institutions, and to favor novelty over practicality.  They are as a lot, prodigal rather than liberal. 

Also, Americans should think long and hard before assuming that a particular demographic becomes "persecuted" once it exponentially increases its numbers and demands majority representation.  As with the United States' history, rather than a "nation of immigrants", South Africa is in reality a "nation of colonists", specifically, North-Western European colonists.  The Republic of South Africa did not precede the European peoples who founded its laws and institutions, or to put it even more plainly, the Republic of South Africa did not exist before the Dutch, Huguenot French, and British colonists founded the nation.

Just as the media uses the term "American" to conflate "United States Citizen" with "North American Aborigine" (i.e. "Native American"), so the media also uses the term "South African" to conflate "Republic of South Africa Citizen" with "Sub Saharan Black" (i.e. "African Native").  Chance birth on a continent does not equate to citizenship, or the ownership, of a nation.  The Republic of South Africa was born in South Africa but not born /of/ Sub Saharan Blacks.  Sub Saharan Blacks do not automatically "own" the Republic of South Africa just because Sub Saharan Blacks hail from the African continent.  Similarly, the United States of America was born in the North American landmass, but not born /of/ North American Aborigines.  North American Aborigines do not automatically "own" the United States of America just because North American Aborigines hail from the North American landmass.

The majority of fecund Blacks in South Africa today are descended from recent economic migrants, just as the majority of fecund Hispanics in the United States are descended from recent economic migrants - migrants who arrived during a period when conservatives and liberals together sidelined citizen employment and border enforcement laws.  For being persecuted, the underclasses of South Africa and the United States (who are now projected to be those nations future majorities) were certainly eager to come to their land of persecution.

The dispossession of the founding stock in South Africa is exactly why I am adhering to the Harry Browne portfolio in the United States; the 25% stake in Gold is an acknowledgement that demographics are significant, that a nation is its people rather than its geography, and that the exchange of a nation's people will affect that nation's economics, one way or another.
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