The Gods of the Copybook Headings Kipling

[Benko]

Jerry Pournelle likes this, and someone asked me about Pournelle what kinds of thing he talks about. 

NB: Pournelle's personality is about as relevant to information he provides, as Aye Rands info, or Obamas deeds, which is to say none.

http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_copybook.htm

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

[TripleB]

That was me asking about Pournelle.

Funny you mention Ayn Rand. I just started reading Atlas Shrugged. I got about 30 pages into it a couple of years ago but had to put it down. It's written horrendously from a technical fiction writing perspective.

I started from page 1 again today and got to chapter 3. It's as bad as I remembered it, but I'm trying to read it quickly so I don't notice as much and instead focus on the story, which is what I'm interested in getting from it.

[Benko]

Someone on here mentioned that they'd met pournelle and he wasn't a nice guy or warm and fuzzy, or whatever.  If you pick a surgeon, you want the most technically competent person, and the personality is irrelevant.  But our society (partially) elects presidents because they are "rock stars", and Ayn Rand was "put down" in recent thread because she apparently was personality wise a turkey, etc. 

Atlas Shrugged has super relevant (to today's society) information.  The story was written ages ago and it is certainly not War and Peace (what I was reading before Atlas).  If you keep reading, pay attention to what is going on i.e. what is being demanded of the various people/corporations in the book, and how those demands play out i.e. do they turn out well?  Why?.  There is a speech near the end of the book which lays things out i.e. her points.

[MachineGhost]

I started from page 1 again today and got to chapter 3. It's as bad as I remembered it, but I'm trying to read it quickly so I don't notice as much and instead focus on the story, which is what I'm interested in getting from it.

May I suggest the Cliff's Note version?  It will save you a lot of time.

[MachineGhost]

Atlas Shrugged has super relevant (to today's society) information.  The story was written ages ago and it is certainly not War and Peace (what I was reading before Atlas).  If you keep reading, pay attention to what is going on i.e. what is being demanded of the various people/corporations in the book, and how those demands play out i.e. do they turn out well?  Why?.  There is a speech near the end of the book which lays things out i.e. her points.

Keep in mind that Rand promulgated her extremism before altruisim was recognized as a major evolutionary and cognitive imperative for human civilization.  For a long time, homo economicus was considered to be all that was relevant.

[Benko]

Keep in mind that Rand promulgated her extremism before altruisim was recognized as a major evolutionary and cognitive imperative for human civilization. 

Altrusim is not forcing other people to be altrusitic to their own detriment. 
And seriously, I never would have pegged you for a progressive

[Pointedstick]

Keep in mind that Rand promulgated her extremism before altruisim was recognized as a major evolutionary and cognitive imperative for human civilization. 

Altrusim is not forcing other people to be altrusitic to their own detriment. 
And seriously, I never would have pegged you for a progressive

Nobody said anything about forcing anyone to do something. Altruism can be undertaken voluntarily without having some government coerce you into it. I think if anything, MG was challenging Rand's argument that even voluntarily-undertaken altruism is inefficient and encourages sloth.

Progressivism is hardly reducible to the belief that altruism is a natural part of the human psyche. Research shows that right-wing religious people donate the most to charity… are they all closet progressives?

[Benko]

Nobody said anything about forcing anyone to do something.

The topic was Atlas Shrugged.  I have no idea of Ayn Rand aside from the book.  The book was about (among other things) people being forced to do things "for the greater good" to their own detriment.  MG then brought up altruism.

MG was challenging Rand's argument that even voluntarily-undertaken altruism is inefficient and encourages sloth.

I'll take your word for it.