Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

Post by Ad Orientem »

To keep our debt/GDP ratio below the metaphorical combustion point of 212 degrees Fahrenheit, these studies (when averaged) suggest that we need to cut spending or raise taxes by 11% of GDP and rather quickly over the next five to 10 years. An 11% “fiscal gap”? in terms of today’s economy speaks to a combination of spending cuts and taxes of $1.6 trillion per year! To put that into perspective, CBO has calculated that the expiration of the Bush tax cuts and other provisions would only reduce the deficit by a little more than $200 billion. As well, the failed attempt at a budget compromise by Congress and the President – the so-called Super Committee “Grand Bargain”?– was a $4 trillion battle plan over 10 years worth $400 billion a year. These studies, and the updated chart “Ring of Fire – Part 2!”? suggests close to four times that amount in order to douse the inferno.

And to draw, dear reader, what I think are critical relative comparisons, look at who’s in that ring of fire alongside the U.S. There’s Japan, Greece, the U.K., Spain and France, sort of a rogues’ gallery of debtors. Look as well at which countries have their budgets and fiscal gaps under relative control – Canada, Italy, Brazil, Mexico, China and a host of other developing (many not shown) as opposed to developed countries. As a rule of thumb, developing countries have less debt and more underdeveloped financial systems. The U.S. and its fellow serial abusers have been inhaling debt’s methamphetamine crystals for some time now, and kicking the habit looks incredibly difficult.

As one of the “Ring”? leaders, America’s abusive tendencies can be described in more ways than an 11% fiscal gap and a $1.6 trillion current dollar hole which needs to be filled. It’s well publicized that the U.S. has $16 trillion of outstanding debt, but its future liabilities in terms of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are less tangible and therefore more difficult to comprehend. Suppose, though, that when paying payroll or income taxes for any of the above benefits, American citizens were issued a bond that they could cash in when required to pay those future bills. The bond would be worth more than the taxes paid because the benefits are increasing faster than inflation. The fact is that those bonds today would total nearly $60 trillion, a disparity that is four times our publicized number of outstanding debt. We owe, in other words, not only $16 trillion in outstanding, Treasury bonds and bills, but $60 trillion more. In my example, it just so happens that the $60 trillion comes not in the form of promises to pay bonds or bills at maturity, but the present value of future Social Security benefits, Medicaid expenses and expected costs for Medicare. Altogether, that’s a whopping total of 500% of GDP, dear reader, and I’m not making it up. Kindly consult the IMF and the CBO for verification. Kindly wonder, as well, how we’re going to get out of this mess.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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That's what I would call "inside the box" thinking.

I think it's time for Gross to retire.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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MediumTex wrote: That's what I would call "inside the box" thinking.

I think it's time for Gross to retire.
Care to say where you disagree with him or how you see this scenario playing out rather than just saying he's wrong?
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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clacy wrote:
MediumTex wrote: That's what I would call "inside the box" thinking.

I think it's time for Gross to retire.
Care to say where you disagree with him or how you see this scenario playing out rather than just saying he's wrong?
I would start with the idea that there is a "metaphorical combustion point" for the debt/GDP ratio of a currency issuer nation. It all goes downhill from there.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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clacy wrote:
MediumTex wrote: That's what I would call "inside the box" thinking.

I think it's time for Gross to retire.
Care to say where you disagree with him or how you see this scenario playing out rather than just saying he's wrong?
The Japanese experience during a deflationary period following the bursting of a debt-fueled asset bubble invalidates the entire argument that these debt and deficit hawks put forth as the "inevitable" result of certain debt levels.

Gross seems not to understand that in a fiat world there are different rules and constraints applicable to government debt.  Japan is probably showing the rest of the developed world the way forward in this regard, while places like the U.K. are spinning their wheels with ideas about austerity and "fiscal responsbility" that have provided none of the improved economic conditions that people were expecting.

Gross was also wrong with his interest rate call leading up to the budget crisis last year.  His thinking just seems disconnected from actual economic conditions.  It's like he has this mental economic model that is feeding him cause and effect relationships that simply don't exist in reality and for whatever reason he is showing an inability to modify his thinking to internalize what is actually happening. 
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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The whole thing reads like something from zero hedge, especially with the flaming graphs. It's surprising that he is managing so much money.

His article did confirm one thing for me: If you are paying for active management you are paying for a story teller. You might not get any alpha, but you will get plenty of predictions based off of "serious" and "proprietary" analysis. You will have "your guy" who has your back because he really gets what is going on. Unfortunately for many of his investors, I think Mr. Gross' story is somewhat of a fairy tale.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

Post by Ad Orientem »

My main hangup with Bill Gross is that whatever the topic is on which he is weighing in, he is ALWAYS talking up his own book. As for the debt predictions, I am agnostic though I would take a deep breath before suggesting that the rest of the world is about to follow Japan down the path of a decades long deflationary depression. There are some significant aspects of Japan's case which are unusual if not unique.  And frankly if Japan is an example of what to do right then we are in a world of deep trouble.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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Ad Orientem wrote: My main hangup with Bill Gross is that whatever the topic is on which he is weighing in, he is ALWAYS talking up his own book. As for the debt predictions, I am agnostic though I would take a deep breath before suggesting that the rest of the world is about to follow Japan down the path of a decades long deflationary depression. There are some significant aspects of Japan's case which are unusual if not unique.  And frankly if Japan is an example of what to do right then we are in a world of deep trouble.
I mainly referred to Japan as an example of how debt and deficits can continue rising without terrible things happening at certain magic predetermined debt/GDP levels.

I would say that no one knows what will happen as a result of the U.S. debt and deficit situation, but part of the reason the deficit is so high is because the American taxpayers bailed out many bondholders in 2008 who probably should have suffered a default on their bond holdings, including one Bill Gross.

In other words, Bill Gross is lamenting a current fiscal situation that is the result, in part, of a series of bailouts which were enormously beneficial to his funds and I'm sure him personally.  That sort of thing is what some might call hypocrisy or maybe just dishonesty.

If Gross is really concerned about the debt and deficits, he should offer to pay back some of the bailout funds that were used to guarantee bonds he held that should have defaulted in 2008.  Something tells me he isn't going to propose anything like that.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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MediumTex wrote: That's what I would call "inside the box" thinking.
Hilarious.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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craigr wrote: My only counter is that Japan is much different culturally than what the U.S. is. So cross cultural comparisons have issues and I'm nervous about drawing too many conclusions about how things may repeat.
I've heard the argument that Japanese debt is different than US debt because the Japanese government owes most of its debt to its own citizens, whereas the US owes most of its debt to foreigners (although I have heard this last statement disputed as well).

I have no idea if this is true or not, and, if it is, why it would matter...I guess I'm just posting this to see if anyone has an opinion on the statement.  The prolonged Japanese deflation is very interesting to me.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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craigr wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
clacy wrote: Care to say where you disagree with him or how you see this scenario playing out rather than just saying he's wrong?
The Japanese experience during a deflationary period following the bursting of a debt-fueled asset bubble invalidates the entire argument that these debt and deficit hawks put forth as the "inevitable" result of certain debt levels.
My only counter is that Japan is much different culturally than what the U.S. is. So cross cultural comparisons have issues and I'm nervous about drawing too many conclusions about how things may repeat. Also Japan is not the world reserve currency,  and that makes the game far more interesting if the worm should turn.

With that said, I didn't read Bill Gross's article because I never read articles like this… :)
I'm not saying that the Japanese experience is the inevitable result that the U.S. and other developed countries will face.  I'm just saying that Japan shows us that Gross and other deficit hawks' arguments do not necessarily lead to the conclusions that they suggest are inevitable.

Gross is just telling a story that sounds sort of scary and seems to be supported by sound logic.

Gross is a great storyteller.  He always sounds so earnest and authoritative.  It's a great act.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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AdamA wrote:
craigr wrote: My only counter is that Japan is much different culturally than what the U.S. is. So cross cultural comparisons have issues and I'm nervous about drawing too many conclusions about how things may repeat.
I've heard the argument that Japanese debt is different than US debt because the Japanese government owes most of its debt to its own citizens, whereas the US owes most of its debt to foreigners (although I have heard this last statement disputed as well).

I have no idea if this is true or not, and, if it is, why it would matter...I guess I'm just posting this to see if anyone has an opinion on the statement.  The prolonged Japanese deflation is very interesting to me.
There is a strong demographic component to Japan's experience as well.  When you combine the bursting of a credit-fueled asset bubble with unfavorable demographics, it can make for a very potent one-two deflationary punch.

As the Baby Boomers age out of the workforce, the U.S. may experience a milder sort of one-two punch that could make deflationary conditions linger for a long time.

For whatever reason, I see very few market commentators linking up demographic shift with the post-real estate bubble U.S. economy, even though it makes for a really compelling and interesting market narrative.  Maybe it's too subtle for most people to grasp.  There has been a lot of interesting academic research in this area.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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MediumTex wrote: For whatever reason, I see very few market commentators linking up demographic shift with the post-real estate bubble U.S. economy, even though it makes for a really compelling and interesting market narrative.  Maybe it's too subtle for most people to grasp.  There has been a lot of interesting academic research in this area.
The inflationary narrative is much easier to understand, and much more exciting/dramatic. 
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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Everyone questioning why he is still managing money at this point must have not looked at his total return funds. He seems to be doing very well despite his lack of understanding of economics. Since 2000 he has averaged 7.8 CAGR with a 6.6 max draw down.

More recently PTTRX has averaged 9.7 CAGR with a 2.46 sharpe since 2009
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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clacy wrote: Everyone questioning why he is still managing money at this point must have not looked at his total return funds. He seems to be doing very well despite his lack of understanding of economics. Since 2000 he has averaged 7.8 CAGR with a 6.6 max draw down.

More recently PTTRX has averaged 9.7 CAGR with a 2.46 sharpe since 2009
I'm okay with him managing money.  I just wish he would tone down the breathless storytelling about things that may or may not happen, especially when he benefited so immensely from the thing he now seems so indignant about.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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MediumTex wrote:
clacy wrote: Everyone questioning why he is still managing money at this point must have not looked at his total return funds. He seems to be doing very well despite his lack of understanding of economics. Since 2000 he has averaged 7.8 CAGR with a 6.6 max draw down.

More recently PTTRX has averaged 9.7 CAGR with a 2.46 sharpe since 2009
I'm okay with him managing money.  I just wish he would tone down the breathless storytelling about things that may or may not happen, especially when he benefited so immensely from the thing he now seems so indignant about.
But if the "great" pundits didn't pontificate to the masses, what would we talk about on forums like this... :)

Every time Warren Buffet says something I don't agree with I cringe, but it would be a very boring world without guys like he and Gross spouting off.

No different than what we do here in fact.  Just longer winded and more widely read.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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MediumTex wrote: The Japanese experience during a deflationary period following the bursting of a debt-fueled asset bubble invalidates the entire argument that these debt and deficit hawks put forth as the "inevitable" result of certain debt levels.
Invalidates it? Perhaps. Or it could be that this takes a lot longer to play out than one might expect. I'm with Ad Orientem (see post above) on this one.
MediumTex wrote: Gross seems not to understand that in a fiat world there are different rules and constraints applicable to government debt.  Japan is probably showing the rest of the developed world the way forward in this regard, while places like the U.K. are spinning their wheels with ideas about austerity and "fiscal responsbility" that have provided none of the improved economic conditions that people were expecting.
The following is not a criticism of you, MT, as much as a caution to many of those who have posted above. I am continually amazed at the wisdom and knowledge of members of this forum. However, I think that we frequently tend to get caught in the same trap as that which we are criticizing, overestimating our own capabilities. It is one thing to recognize that Gross is not omniscient and another to say that he does not understand something that we all "get." Whenever someone with the track record of Bill Gross, the sustained management capabilities of Warren Buffett, or the academic prowess of a Nobel Laureate speaks, perhaps we should at least pause before we put our wisdom and intelligence over theirs.
MediumTex wrote: I mainly referred to Japan as an example of how debt and deficits can continue rising without terrible things happening at certain magic predetermined debt/GDP levels.
I guess that I did not interpret it as much as a magic or predetermined level as an unsustainable path. If the debt/gdp is growing exponentially and the interest on the debt is an ever increasing proportion of the budget, how is this sustainable?
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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BearBones wrote:
MediumTex wrote: The Japanese experience during a deflationary period following the bursting of a debt-fueled asset bubble invalidates the entire argument that these debt and deficit hawks put forth as the "inevitable" result of certain debt levels.
Invalidates it? Perhaps. Or it could be that this takes a lot longer to play out than one might expect. I'm with Ad Orientem (see post above) on this one.
MediumTex wrote: Gross seems not to understand that in a fiat world there are different rules and constraints applicable to government debt.  Japan is probably showing the rest of the developed world the way forward in this regard, while places like the U.K. are spinning their wheels with ideas about austerity and "fiscal responsbility" that have provided none of the improved economic conditions that people were expecting.
The following is not a criticism of you, MT, as much as a caution to many of those who have posted above. I am continually amazed at the wisdom and knowledge of members of this forum. However, I think that we frequently tend to get caught in the same trap as that which we are criticizing, overestimating our own capabilities. It is one thing to recognize that Gross is not omniscient and another to say that he does not understand something that we all "get." Whenever someone with the track record of Bill Gross, the sustained management capabilities of Warren Buffett, or the academic prowess of a Nobel Laureate speaks, perhaps we should at least pause before we put our wisdom and intelligence over theirs.
MediumTex wrote: I mainly referred to Japan as an example of how debt and deficits can continue rising without terrible things happening at certain magic predetermined debt/GDP levels.
I guess that I did not interpret it as much as a magic or predetermined level as an unsustainable path. If the debt/gdp is growing exponentially and the interest on the debt is an ever increasing proportion of the budget, how is this sustainable?
Nice post BearBones.  You said this much better than I could have.  I tend to agree.  I really don't know who is correct.  It could be the MMT'ers.  I've heard their arguments and respect them. They have some very smart people on their team.  Same with the Austrians. 

I guess that's why I gravitated towards the PP in fact.  If I knew the answer to which monetary regime was correct, I would be invested differently.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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AdamA wrote:I've heard the argument that Japanese debt is different than US debt because the Japanese government owes most of its debt to its own citizens, whereas the US owes most of its debt to foreigners (although I have heard this last statement disputed as well).

I have no idea if this is true or not, and, if it is, why it would matter...I guess I'm just posting this to see if anyone has an opinion on the statement.  The prolonged Japanese deflation is very interesting to me.
From a solvency standpoint, it makes no difference if the debt is owned by domestic citizens, foreigners, martians, dogs, cats or ferrets. As long as the money created by the debt goes into a domestic bank account — which is mandatory anyway — the money will always be available in the domestic banking system to buy domestic debt.

In other words, when you give dollars to a Chinese company, the money never leaves the United States banking system. Those dollars just sit in an HSBC bank account in New York. The Chinese company then either spends or loans the dollars out to someone else, buys US debt, or trades those dollars for currency with someone else with a US bank account — and that person can use their dollars to buy US debt, (or loan it out or trade it with someone else).

Often the Chinese company trades those dollars with the Chinese government for freshly printed Yuan. The Chinese government keeps its dollars in a special Federal Reserve account. If the Chinese government wants to get a return on their dollars, they just switch their money from the equivalent of 'checking' to 'savings' at the Fed and the money is automatically used to buy Treasuries.

Even if nobody plays along and nobody buys US debt, the banks that control all this money just buy the debt. These banks don't like excess reserves anyway. They (the Primary Dealers) are contractually obligated to buy US debt if nobody else will. And if for some reason the Primary Dealers can't find any cash in the US banking system, the Fed just lends them the money temporarily until the reserves can be targeted. There is NO solvency issue.

Same thing happens in Japan, but all the money spent by the government just happens to go to domestic savers. The domestic savers put the money into the bank, and the bank buys the next round of debt.

The lesson is that there's always enough money to buy the next round of debt. There's never a solvency issue in a fiat debt-based monetary system unless a government chooses to have one.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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BearBones wrote: I guess that I did not interpret it as much as a magic or predetermined level as an unsustainable path. If the debt/gdp is growing exponentially and the interest on the debt is an ever increasing proportion of the budget, how is this sustainable?
I think it's important to focus on real rates when talking about interest on the debt.  If nominal interest rates increase to 5% and inflation is at 6%, then we are in the same situation as we are in right now (ie. a real interest rate of -1%).  This won't be a problem since nominal GDP should be around 8-9% (assuming real GDP is at 2-3%).  

In my mind, government debt is inert as long as real rates are contained, which is much easier to accomplish if one controls their own printing press.  People may complain about a depreciating currency, but it doesn't matter as long as salaries increase with inflation and savings accounts pay a real interest rate...although it will be more expensive to go on vacations, unless other countries debase their currency as well.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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BearBones wrote:
MediumTex wrote: The Japanese experience during a deflationary period following the bursting of a debt-fueled asset bubble invalidates the entire argument that these debt and deficit hawks put forth as the "inevitable" result of certain debt levels.
Invalidates it? Perhaps. Or it could be that this takes a lot longer to play out than one might expect. I'm with Ad Orientem (see post above) on this one.
That's all I meant.  If someone says that a bad thing will happen at "x" point in time based upon certain debt/GDP markers, and it takes 3-4 times as long to happen (if it happens at all), then I would say the initial argument was flawed and thus the logic was "invalidated" by actual experience.
MediumTex wrote: Gross seems not to understand that in a fiat world there are different rules and constraints applicable to government debt.  Japan is probably showing the rest of the developed world the way forward in this regard, while places like the U.K. are spinning their wheels with ideas about austerity and "fiscal responsbility" that have provided none of the improved economic conditions that people were expecting.
The following is not a criticism of you, MT, as much as a caution to many of those who have posted above. I am continually amazed at the wisdom and knowledge of members of this forum. However, I think that we frequently tend to get caught in the same trap as that which we are criticizing, overestimating our own capabilities. It is one thing to recognize that Gross is not omniscient and another to say that he does not understand something that we all "get." Whenever someone with the track record of Bill Gross, the sustained management capabilities of Warren Buffett, or the academic prowess of a Nobel Laureate speaks, perhaps we should at least pause before we put our wisdom and intelligence over theirs.
I am not putting my wisdom over Gross's.  Far from it.  What I am saying is that I don't know what will happen and neither does Gross, but it's hard not to find irony in someone moaning about debt and deficits when their own personal investment performance would have been blown to bits had they not been bailed out along with the rest of the universe of GSE bondholders in 2008.  The current deficits are a direct result of those bailouts from which Gross profited immensely.
MediumTex wrote: I mainly referred to Japan as an example of how debt and deficits can continue rising without terrible things happening at certain magic predetermined debt/GDP levels.
I guess that I did not interpret it as much as a magic or predetermined level as an unsustainable path. If the debt/gdp is growing exponentially and the interest on the debt is an ever increasing proportion of the budget, how is this sustainable?
It's not sustainable, but nothing in life is.  Each of us and all human institutions are in a perpetual state of decay, but that doesn't mean that a wizard like Gross can somehow tell the rest of us the expiration date of any particular human arrangement.  If he says that something that is growing exponentially is unsustainable, from a theoretical perspective I would say fine, but he really hasn't said anything more profound than someone who says that one day the sun will stop shining.  It's certainly true, but it has no predictive value whatsoever and certainly tells us absolutely nothing about how to make plans over the next 1-5 years, which is about the longest time horizon most of us have.

I'm not taking anything away from Gross's talents as a bond fund manager and entertainer.  I just think that it would be reasonable for Gross to footnote his performance in recent years with something like "bailout assisted returns" in the same way that we might footnote Barry Bonds' home run stats from the later years of his career.

Gross is tapping into a deep and intuitive fear that many people have of the U.S. "going broke" and that sort of thing.  I get what he's doing.  I'm just trying to inject a little skepticism as I peer into the Chicken Little revival tent. 
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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I think that there is a massive difference between projecting that Japan will "go parabolic" in a blaze of sovereign default/hyperinflation and instead supposing that it will end up gently shifting to a sustainable course like a lake silting up. My guess is that all fiat currencies will eventually have to become sustainable cycles (like the carbon cycle or the nitrogen cycle or whatever) and that will necessitate wealth taxes of some kind. Bill Gross etc seem to consider only the going out with a bang possibility even though IMO it is hard to see the supposed mechanisms underneath that projected future.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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MediumTex wrote:
I'm not taking anything away from Gross's talents as a bond fund manager and entertainer.  I just think that it would be reasonable for Gross to footnote his performance in recent years with something like "bailout assisted returns" in the same way that we might footnote Barry Bonds' home run stats from the later years of his career.

All of us need an footnote denoting "QE assisted returns" then too.  The 90's needs to have a footnote denoting "demographics (boomers) and technology advance assisted returns". 
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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AdamA wrote: I have no idea if this is true or not, and, if it is, why it would matter...I guess I'm just posting this to see if anyone has an opinion on the statement.  The prolonged Japanese deflation is very interesting to me.
I doubt it makes a difference.  The Fed owns about 60% of the outstanding Treasury debt, with the rest split about even between domestic and foreign.

Japan is a society that lacks dynanism.  It is very statist, xenophobic and oligarcherical.  Risk tasking is not a cultural norm.  See my post today elsewhere about Japan.
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Re: Bill Gross: On the fiscal gap

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Gumby wrote: The lesson is that there's always enough money to buy the next round of debt. There's never a solvency issue in a fiat debt-based monetary system unless a government chooses to have one.
But is there enough money in the system to buy the exponetially compounding interest that overwhelms the principal?
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