Immune disorders, autism, and raw milk

[Storm]

I read this fascinating article in NY Times today.  There now seem to be some medical studies linking an excessive inflammatory response to autism, specifically inflammation that develops in a fetal brain, possibly triggered by the mother's immune system.  What's more, it seems further studies have shown that lab rats in a clean environment have excess inflammation compared to street rats that are exposed to many parasites and other microbes.  The parasites and microbes seem to control the inflammatory response in some way.  This hypothesis is born out if you compare the rate of autism in 3rd world countries to that in countries like the US that have access to clean water and more sanitary conditions.  Autism is virtually non-existent in countries where parasites and microbes are present everywhere.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/opini ... wanted=all

This got me thinking about raw milk.  Did you know that a lot of parents with autistic children have claimed that after drinking raw milk, their children returned to almost completely normal function?  My theory is that there are some bacterial organisms that have created a symbiotic relationship with humans for thousands of years, and by depriving ourselves of them, imbalances show up in our bodies.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

[MachineGhost]

This got me thinking about raw milk.  Did you know that a lot of parents with autistic children have claimed that after drinking raw milk, their children returned to almost completely normal function?  My theory is that there are some bacterial organisms that have created a symbiotic relationship with humans for thousands of years, and by depriving ourselves of them, imbalances show up in our bodies.

Ah, the hygiene hypothesis.  I haven't heard "a lot" of parents were claiming that, but its certainly feasible because raw milk is essentially a probiotic.  I do not know if parasites are in raw milk; seems unlikely due to the conditions of the medium, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.  It seems parasites are actually needed to keep the body's inflammatory response controlled and to prevent allergies.

In naturopathic medicine, parasites are considered toxic and a sign of putrefaction in the colon since parasites should not technically exist in a clean colon.  So anti-parasite cleansing regimes are instituted.  Leaving aside obvious lifestyle issues (i.e. obese people carry a lot of undigested fecal matter), it might be overkill past a certain point.  Makes me wonder if I'm "too clean".  Anyone got some parasites they want to send me to eat?  :D

In the raw food community, some masochistic individuals make it a habit to eat parasite-infested meat to no ill effect to prove how "healthy" they are.

[Gumby]

To echo MG... Raw milk isn't about drinking parasites. It's about drinking probiotics (i.e. good bacteria). The probiotics in raw milk are what help protect the milk from bad bacteria and parasites in its natural state. It's why raw human or raw cow's milk can be left at room temperature longer than "dead" milk can.

Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride — who recommends raw milk to her Autism patients — has an interesting theory about all mental disorders, such as Autism. She has highlighted the fact that Autistic children have abnormally toxic flora in their stools. She explains the often poorly understood "gut-brain" connection (see this Scientific American article to learn more about the fascinating gut-brain connection) where the gut contains a massive amount of neurotransmitters that are physically connected to the brain. So, the idea is that bad flora in the gut is secreting their toxic waste into the blood stream and the neurotransmitters in the stomach are sending toxic signals to the brain — causing every mental issue from schizophrenia, to sensory issues, to autism. The brain is essentially flooded with toxins from the bad flora in the stomach.

She argues that all mental issues can be fixed with a specific diet to replace the bad bacteria with the good bacteria. She also argues that parents who have gone "gluten/casein free" and noticed an improvement in their child's behavior have only eliminated the food that the bad gut flora thrive on. In other words, these children could be cured of autism if they were able to replace that bad bacteria with good bacteria and begin healing their stomachs to properly absorb nutrients. But, until the bad flora is killed off, the children will always be sensitive to the foods that stimulate the bad bacteria.

So... she has her patients eating raw milk, raw kefir, natural fats — while eliminating carbohydrates and sugars that feed the bad flora — and she prescribes specific over-the-counter probiotics to populate good bacteria in the gut (which helps eliminate the bad bacteria). She has claimed to have "cured" Autism in her own two children and she has many followers who have had success with her G.A.P.S. (Gut And Psychology Syndrome) diet.

I've got to say, it's a fascinating theory. She points out that children with these mental issues often have feeding disorders — and only crave starchy, sugary foods that are easily converted into energy for the bad bacteria. It's as if the bad flora in the stomach are literally sending direct messages to the brain (via the gut-brain connection) that orders the brain to have the child consume the very foods that keeps the bad bacteria in place.

It all makes me wonder if the trillions of bacteria that compose our own microbiomes actually control us in ways we can't possibly imagine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbiome

See also: NYTimes: Tending the Body’s Microbial Garden

[Gumby]

Even more interesting is how she believes these children wind up with toxic flora in their guts to begin with. She points out that you tend to see more development problems in children who were born from C-Section and weren't breast fed (breast feeding is "raw" milk that passes lots of good probiotic bacteria from the mother to the child). And it doesn't help that women who give birth via C-Section often have trouble lactating.

Typically the mother passes key bacteria to her child's stomach when the infant passes through the birth canal (this is well known by many doctors now). When a child is born from C-Section, the mother is unable to pass her flora to the infant, and the infant's first exposure to flora comes from the hospital room. Furthermore, even children who are born naturally are often receiving bad flora from their mother if their mothers have too much bad flora in their microbiome. Things that have been known to wreck people's flora balance are the use of "The Pill" as well as antibiotics and poor diet that lacks enough "good" flora. So, overuse of these pharmaceuticals have allowed lots of bad flora to move into people's guts and they pass this bad flora onto their children, which overwhelm their brains. If this is all true, it gives you an idea why autism and other gut-brain issues could be more prevalent in a developed country.

Of course, if this is true, don't expect the medical community to realize any of this any time soon. There will likely never be any major studies done to support this theory since there is very little money to be made in treating a condition with natural "raw" foods and over-the-counter probiotics.

[Storm]

Fascinating stuff, Gumby.  It could be that the toxins secreted by all of the bad flora are what create the inflammatory response in the first place.  In the NYT article they note that there seems to be a higher incidence of autism from mothers that are overweight and diabetic, which we know can easily lead to excessive inflammation.

This could also be a highly evolved bacterial way of propagating itself, passing itself down from one generation of unhealthy mothers to their unhealthy children.

Another interesting thing I've heard regarding gut/brain connection is people getting stool transplants in order to propagate healthy flora.  Apparently this is supposed to work wonders for some people that are unable to digest certain foods.

[Storm]

Just to clarify, it's not about drinking parasites.  I believe the article mentions the rate of autism decreased for mothers that took probiotics.  To be honest I think the lab rats suffered because they were more likely to be raised on some type of sugar solution than the wild rats, who would only survive on their mothers raw milk.

[dualstow]

To echo MG... Raw milk isn't about drinking parasites. It's about drinking probiotics (i.e. good bacteria). The probiotics in raw milk are what help protect the milk from bad bacteria and parasites in its natural state. It's why raw human or raw cow's milk can be left at room temperature longer than "dead" milk can.

I was thinking about this as I read the OP. I have personally made clabbered milk by leaving raw milk in a completely full airtight container. Pasteurized milk, on the other hand, is closer to a microbial clean slate, and would just end up spoiled, not clabbered.

Still, this thread has got me thinking about
# sickle cells vs malaria and

# that guy who completely cured his allergies by intentionally infecting himself with hookworms { don't try this at home }

EDIT: Anyway, here's a response to the NYTimes piece:
http://boingboing.net/2012/08/27/autism ... asite.html

[MachineGhost]

I think I conflated the issue a little bit.  Here's the story on the hookworm "drug" that is being developed:

http://io9.com/5933615/why-doctors-are- ... itic-worms

Now, where do I buy some hookworks?

[dualstow]

Believe it or not, the man who suffered from allergies featured on 'This American Life' was selling hookworms from samples of his own stool. At the end of the story, the government was taking an interest and he fled the country. I think he still ships, but not to the United States.

[Gumby]

It seems that the treatment of disorders with parasitic worms is called helminthic therapy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy

And somewhat related is the hygiene hypothesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

Although helminthic therapy falls under the hygiene hypothesis, the hygiene hypothesis also referrers to gut flora and benign symbiotic microorganisms.

The hygiene hypothesis proposes that appropriate immune response is in part learned by exposure to these microorganisms and parasites, and in part regulated by their presence. In the industrialised nations, humans are exposed to somewhat lower levels of these organisms. The development of vaccines, hygienic practices, and effective medical care have diminished or eliminated the prevalence and impact of many parasitic organisms, as well as bacterial and viral infections. This has been of obvious benefit with the effective eradication of many diseases that have plagued human beings. However, while many severe diseases have been eradicated, humans' exposure to benign and apparently beneficial parasites has also been reduced commensurately. The central thrust of the theory is, therefore, that correct development of T regulator cells in individuals may depend on exposure to organisms such as lactobacilli, various mycobacteria, and helminths. Lack of exposure to sufficient benign antigens, particularly during childhood, is sometimes suggested as a cause of the increase in autoimmune diseases and diseases for which chronic inflammation is a major component in the industrialized world.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy

It seems that we may need to constantly add good bacteria into our guts to stay healthy. I'm not familiar with using helminths or protozoa, but I've heard that maintaining healthy gut flora requires regular consumption of healthy probiotics found in food. As we already discussed, raw milk is a good source of probiotics (provided it's been sourced properly). Raw kefir, raw yogurt, raw butter, raw sauerkraut as well as homemade lacto-fermented veggies are great too. Most people eat pasteurized yogurt, but pasteurized yogurt only has a handful of bacteria synthetically added to it from what I understand. Raw milk/kefir/butter/yogurt have way more variety of naturally occurring probiotics.

[BearBones]

Another interesting thing I've heard regarding gut/brain connection is people getting stool transplants in order to propagate healthy flora.  Apparently this is supposed to work wonders for some people that are unable to digest certain foods.

Also has been used to treat Clostridium difficile (a lethal bacterial) enterocolitis (87% effective in recent review). Small numbers of patients also have reportedly undergone successful fecal transplantation for irritable bowel syndrome and inflammatory bowel disease.

[MachineGhost]

Also has been used to treat Clostridium difficile (a lethal bacterial) enterocolitis (87% effective in recent review). Small numbers of patients also have reportedly undergone successful fecal transplantation for irritable bowel syndrome and inflammatory bowel disease.

Fecal transplantation?  Is that as disgusting as it sounds?

[dualstow]

The posts above remind me that there was an article in Scientific American a few years ago about esophageal problems in the developed world. We have more acid reflux and eso cancer over here than in developing countries while they have more _____ (I can't remember)*. I do remember that it has to do with the fact that they have more h.pylori in their systems than we do. So, we have eliminated one problem only to
contract another: reflux.



*EDIT: stomach cancer

[MediumTex]

Also has been used to treat Clostridium difficile (a lethal bacterial) enterocolitis (87% effective in recent review). Small numbers of patients also have reportedly undergone successful fecal transplantation for irritable bowel syndrome and inflammatory bowel disease.

Fecal transplantation?  Is that as disgusting as it sounds?

It is deeply counterintuitive.

[BearBones]

Fecal transplantation?  Is that as disgusting as it sounds?

It is deeply counterintuitive.

Yes indeed. Just as is investing in gold or keeping 25% of assets in cash, since we have become indoctrinated to believe otherwise, that bacteria ("germs") are universally disgusting and harmful. Yet each of us is really only 10% human, really. The remaining 90% (by cell number) is microbial without which we would perish. We enter into this world with some DNA from mom and pop, some DNA from the vestige of primitive symbiotic prokaryotic bacteria (from the mother's mitochondria), and a lot of antibodies to survive the first few harsh months of life. We are then inoculated at birth with a rich bacterial culture that has been nurtured and "passed" from generations prior, just as one might guard a precious cheese, kefir, or sourdough culture. It is largely from this culture that our naive immune systems are schooled and disciplined. We learn the difficult task of recognizing self from non-self.

Enter the modern world... We sterilize the birth process, we isolate ourselves in clean houses, and we remove all traces of soil from our foods. We switch from mothers milk to formula, then graduate to pasteurized milk. We clean daily with antibacterial soaps, and we pump processed "food" and preservatives into our guts ad nauseam. Then we regularly wipe out many of the remaining beneficial species from our skin and guts with broad spectrum antibiotics (often prescribed and taken erroneously for viral respiratory illnesses).

Amazing that we do as well as we do, really.

[MediumTex]

Fecal transplantation?  Is that as disgusting as it sounds?

It is deeply counterintuitive.

Yes indeed. Just as is investing in gold or keeping 25% of assets in cash, since we have become indoctrinated to believe otherwise, that bacteria ("germs") are universally disgusting and harmful. Yet each of us is really only 10% human, really. The remaining 90% (by cell number) is microbial without which we would perish. We enter into this world with some DNA from mom and pop, some DNA from the vestige of primitive symbiotic prokaryotic bacteria (from the mother's mitochondria), and a lot of antibodies to survive the first few harsh months of life. We are then inoculated at birth with a rich bacterial culture that has been nurtured and "passed" from generations prior, just as one might guard a precious cheese, kefir, or sourdough culture. It is largely from this culture that our naive immune systems are schooled and disciplined. We learn the difficult task of recognizing self from non-self.

Enter the modern world... We sterilize the birth process, we isolate ourselves in clean houses, and we remove all traces of soil from our foods. We switch from mothers milk to formula, then graduate to pasteurized milk. We clean daily with antibacterial soaps, and we pump processed "food" and preservatives into our guts ad nauseam. Then we regularly wipe out many of the remaining beneficial species from our skin and guts with broad spectrum antibiotics (often prescribed and taken erroneously for viral respiratory illnesses).

Amazing that we do as well as we do, really.

So people who imagine that modern humans have "conquered" nature are really just uninformed about the degree to which we basically live at the pleasure of millions of bacteria with which we coexist in a delicate symbiotic arrangement.

[BearBones]

So people who imagine that modern humans have "conquered" nature are really just uninformed about the degree to which we basically live at the pleasure of millions of bacteria with which we coexist in a delicate symbiotic arrangement.

In a profound sort of way, "we" are largely bacteria.

Here's an interesting link about the 3 global varieties of gut "enterotypes" (original data published in journal Nature 4/21/11):
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/ ... ria-types/

"In much the same way that every person has one of eight common blood types, each of us may contain one of several possible bacterial communities, suggests new research... People are less discrete organisms than teeming symbiotic entities: In every person, Homo sapiens cells account for a small fraction of the whole. And in exchange for a stable, nutrient-rich home, bacteria and viruses help process nutrients, calibrate our immune systems and generally keep people running."

I find this topic absolutely twisted and fascinating. I look forward to reading the articles that some have linked to above. Thanks!

[Gumby]

My apologies if this seems wrong to some people. But, it all makes me wonder if bacteria really are our "creator" (or at least the guiding hand of our creator) — taking Earth elements and molding our bodies, DNA and our consciousness. They say that bacteria communicate with each other in ways we barely understand. A "god"-like collective force of some sort. Just a weird sort of hypothesis of some kind I have.

[dualstow]

Yes indeed. Just as is investing in gold or keeping 25% of assets in cash, since we have become indoctrinated to believe otherwise, that bacteria ("germs") are universally disgusting and harmful. Yet each of us is really only 10% human, really. The remaining 90% (by cell number) is microbial without which we would perish. We enter into this world with some DNA from mom and pop, some DNA from the vestige of primitive symbiotic prokaryotic bacteria (from the mother's mitochondria), and a lot of antibodies to survive the first few harsh months of life. We are then inoculated at birth with a rich bacterial culture that has been nurtured and "passed" from generations prior, just as one might guard a precious cheese, kefir, or sourdough culture. It is largely from this culture that our naive immune systems are schooled and disciplined. We learn the difficult task of recognizing self from non-self.

I love this paragraph.
It's a lot better than "life's a bunch of bacteria and then you die."
The kefir/sourdough simile is so great.