What supplements do you take?

[FarmerD]

I don' recall this being discussed here - Just curious what supplements people here take.  I take the following:

Vitamin D3
MagnEsium citrate
Fish oil
Vitamin k2
Vitamin e (high gamma)
Niacin (1.5 g/d for my low HDL)

I also use no salt brand salt substitute for potassium along with some brazil nuts for selenium. I wish there was a good multivitamin but I haven't found any good ones yet so I'm stuck taking all of the individual supplements above.

We seem to have some nutritionally savvy people here so I' like to hear their take on this subject.

[BearBones]

Broccoli
Sweet potatoes
Chard
Garlic
Olives
Tomatoes
Blackberries
Peas
Herring
Oats
Mangos
Avacado
Eggs
Yogurt
Walnuts
Kale
Barley
Numerous Indian and Thai spices
Grapefruit
Almonds
Black beans
Cabbage
Sardines
Blueberries
Collards
Red wine
Ale

[BearBones]

BTW, that's my PP. I do have a small speculative portfolio as well, but I would not recommend it to anyone. IMO, supplements are an attempt to goose returns at a much higher expense and risk.

[FarmerD]

BTW, that's my PP. I do have a small speculative portfolio as well, but I would not recommend it to anyone. IMO, supplements are an attempt to goose returns at a much higher expense and risk.

I eat 4-5 servings of the veggies you list daily (plus a few others) along with adequate protein and some nuts.  Still My blood tests showed I was deficient in Vit D and magnesium and according to daily nutrition tracker fit day I don' get enough potassium.  Some of my deficiencies are attributable to me being diabetic meaning I can't eat certain foods like potatoes or bananas (for potassium), so I take some supplements.On days where I eat some nuts, i skip the Vit e.  Likewise, when I eat Parmesan, I skip the Vit k2 supplement. 

i thought I was being sensible - Are you saying the supplements don't help or that supplements may be harmful?

[Lone Wolf]

IMO, supplements are an attempt to goose returns at a much higher expense and risk.

I agree with you gentlemen that real foods is of course your best source for most vitamins and nutrients.  Supplements are for those gaps you can't quite fill any other reasonable way.  And BearBones, let me say that you are a better man than me for being able to choke down sardines!

Supplements:
Vitamin D3
Fish oil
Coenzyme Q10
Creatine

[FarmerD]

And BearBones, let me say that you are a better man than me for being able to choke down sardines!

Me too although I would eat a plate full of sardines before I'd eat frickin' mackerel which seems to be the seafood of choice here in Seoul.  I like Korea but my God the food here is atrocious.

Pray for me.

[Gosso]

I'm not the perfect beacon for health, but I have cut way down on supplements.  At the moment I only take a B-complex, since I notice that it does help me cope with stress.

[Storm]

B-complex
Flax seed oil
Omega 3/6 supplement (molecularly distilled salmon oil)
Multi-vitamin
Vitamin C
Milk thistle extract
Resveratrol (Japanese knotweed)
Probiotic

[BearBones]

And BearBones, let me say that you are a better man than me for being able to choke down sardines!

Me too although I would eat a plate full of sardines before I'd eat frickin' mackerel which seems to be the seafood of choice here in Seoul.  I like Korea but my God the food here is atrocious.

Pray for me.

I will pray for you. Must be awfully hard farming in Seoul! 

[Benko]

Diet is of course key,

1. but unless you get regular sun exposure, taking vit D is key (AND GETTING BLOOD TESTS to make sure your blood levels are at least 30) is super important.

2.  Fish oil is super important unless you eat daily fatty fish (salmon, sardines...).

Flax seed/oil is good, but is not a substitute for fish oil (sorry vegetarians) because you can't be sure how much is converted to EPA/DHA.  There is a peer reviewed article few years back which supports that fish oil (containing EPA and DHA) is superior to flax.

3.  I do take coenzyme Q-10 but do not know that it is as important as Vit D/fish oil.

4.  Eating broccoli/greens daily MIGHT provide enough vit K, though I take some (mostly for reasons specific to me).  I don't know if most people really need to be taking vit k.

[BearBones]

i thought I was being sensible - Are you saying the supplements don't help or that supplements may be harmful?

If one is known to be deficient, this would indicated. However, in the absence of disease, our bodies tend to regulate most things well, particularly when given a diet close to that for which we evolved (see discussion on saturated fats). At least that is my opinion.

I bet that many supplements are indeed helpful. However, as with a VP, we generally do a poor job at predicting those which are helpful from those which are harmful or indifferent. There are very few well constructed clinical trials which show a benefit from ANY supplement (in part, because they are hard and very expensive to carry out). And many times the result is exactly the opposite of what we would have predicted based on a knowledge of biochemistry and a sound background in epidemiology (e.g, beta carotene, many of the Vit E studies).

Having said that, I have VP, and I take a few supplements. One part of me foolishly likes to think that I can outsmart other investors and outsmart mother nature.

[Storm]

And BearBones, let me say that you are a better man than me for being able to choke down sardines!

Me too although I would eat a plate full of sardines before I'd eat frickin' mackerel which seems to be the seafood of choice here in Seoul.  I like Korea but my God the food here is atrocious.

Pray for me.

You're kidding me, right?  Korean food is awesome!  I recommend trying various vegetables that are in kimchi form.  I also recommend finding a good korean bbq restaurant.  Don't be afraid to try whatever they put in front of you.  Mackerel are very high in Omega 3 fatty acids and will give you great cardiovascular health.

[Gosso]

Johnnie Walker Black

And I've got the right thread.

One of my diet gurus agrees with you, Does Red Wine Protect the Cardiovascular System?:

No matter what the source, alcohol consumption is associated with a lower risk of cardiovascular disease out to about 3-4 drinks per day, after which the risk goes back up (2, 3)**. The association is not trivial-- up to a 62% lower risk associated with alcohol use. Controlled trials have shown that alcohol, regardless of the source, increases HDL cholesterol and reduces the tendency to clot (4).

Cheers!

[FarmerD]

4.  Eating broccoli/greens daily MIGHT provide enough vit K, though I take some (mostly for reasons specific to me).  I don't know if most people really need to be taking vit k.

My understanding is that plants provide Vitamin K1 which is not the same as vitaminK2.  Vit k2 is only found in high concentration in fermented foods such as hard cheeses like Parmesan, the Japanese food natto, and apparently grassfed butter oil.  K1 is important for strong bones.  K2 keeps calcium from being deposited in your arteries. 

[FarmerD]

You're kidding me, right?  Korean food is awesome!  I recommend trying various vegetables that are in kimchi form.  I also recommend finding a good korean bbq restaurant.  Don't be afraid to try whatever they put in front of you.  Mackerel are very high in Omega 3 fatty acids and will give you great cardiovascular health.

For the most part, I love traditional Chinese food (all types of dim sum),Thai food (papaya salad, beef salads, curries, tom yum, etc), Vietnamese food (pho, spring rolls, noodle dishes),and Japanese food (all types of sushi/shamishi).  Korean food ranks way at the bottom of Asian food though.  Natives here eat fish cake (barf), dried fish (double barf), kimchi soup, tofu, turnips, and radishes for every meal. Virtually everything on the menu is fermented.  I've never met a nonkorean who can stomach this stuff.  A couple Korean Americans on our tourist group told me even they couldn't handle the food here.  I like fresh kimchi, babimbop, and bulgogi but it seems most restaurants don't have these on the menu.

if you can handle the food here and like it, good for you.  It' probably quite healthy.  On the whole, Koreans appear healthier than run of the mill Americans.

[BearBones]

My understanding is that plants provide Vitamin K1 which is not the same as vitaminK2.  Vit k2 is only found in high concentration in fermented foods such as hard cheeses like Parmesan, the Japanese food natto, and apparently grassfed butter oil.  K1 is important for strong bones.  K2 keeps calcium from being deposited in your arteries. 

Can't the body convert K1 to K2?

[FarmerD]

My understanding is that plants provide Vitamin K1 which is not the same as vitaminK2.  Vit k2 is only found in high concentration in fermented foods such as hard cheeses like Parmesan, the Japanese food natto, and apparently grassfed butter oil.  K1 is important for strong bones.  K2 keeps calcium from being deposited in your arteries. 

Can't the body convert K1 to K2?

I've read the body doesn't convert k1 to k2 very efficiently.  Supposedly there is something like a 10 to1 convertibility.  I'll try to post some links if I can find them.  I'm on the road now so I don't have my references handy.

[FarmerD]

Dr Davis on heartscan blog has several articles on vitamin k2 that are worth reading.

[Gumby]

I tend to think that many synthetic vitamins are not easily absorbed by the body and probably contain a fair amount of toxins.

Stearates found in supplements are hydrogenated fats such as magnesium stearate, stearic acid and calcium stearate. They are made by hydrogenating cottonseed or palm oil and are used throughout the supplements industry as lubricants; they are added to the raw materials so that machinery will run at maximum speeds.

Stearates coat every particle of the nutrients, so the particles will flow rapidly. This ensures that production schedules will meet profit targets. These substances decrease the absorption of nutrients; in a published study, the percent dissolution for capsules after 20 minutes in solution went from 90% without stearates to 25% with stearates. Individuals with impaired digestion may have particular difficulty absorbing nutrients coated with stearates.

According to Udo Erasmus, in his book Fats and Oils, cottonseed oil has the highest content of pesticide residues of all commercial oils. In the hydrogenation process, the oil is subjected to high heat and pressure in the presence of a metal catalyst for several hours. According to Erasmus the resultant stearates contain altered molecules derived from fatty acids. The metal catalyst may also contaminate the stearates produced.

...

The sole purpose of using these oils is to make the machines run faster. Supplements can be made without them – it just takes more time...
Source: https://www.drrons.com/why-no-additives ... ements.htm

Even if synthetic vitamins were perfectly safe and easily absorbed, I don't think I would do a very good job of optimizing my balances. And whose to say that the "expert" recommendations are correct either. Vitamins were likely designed to work in their natural form (i.e. food), where they exist alongside their natural cofactors of various minerals, enzymes, coenzymes, and other vitamins.

So... I try to get vitamins from food and I'm starting to avoid processed foods when I can. I'm trying to eat more fish, organ meats, shellfish, eggs, fermented foods and grass-fed animal fats as they are great sources of natural vitamins and cofactors. Easier said than done, but I'm just starting out and I think I'm getting better at it with time.

My supplements right now are:

Fermented Cod Liver Oil (old world recipe)
High Vitamin Butter Oil (from grass fed cows)
Trace Mineral drops

I also have a little ice cream every night to take the edge off the day.

[Benko]

My understanding is that plants provide Vitamin K1 which is not the same as vitaminK2.  Vit k2 is only found in high concentration in fermented foods such as hard cheeses like Parmesan, the Japanese food natto, and apparently grassfed butter oil.  K1 is important for strong bones.  K2 keeps calcium from being deposited in your arteries.  

It does get complicated.
--K1 and K2 are different.
--K1 is from plants.
--K2 can be made by intestinal bacteria in our gut, and K1 can be somewhat converted to K2 .
--you are correct about the 10:1 conversion of vit K1:k2.
--K1 and MK4 (a form of K2) both have effects on bone.
--The arterial calcification issue is less clear (at least to me on a quick search--my personal interest is in vit K for bones).  Please see linus pauling instititue link below for more detail.
--
BOTTOM LINE: you may very well be correct, and it might be useful for many/everyone to take (one or more forms of vit K), but I hate to recommend people take supplements unless I am damn sure as with e.g. Vit D, and fish oil.

REFERENCES
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/v ... /vitaminK/ [linus pauling institute]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K

[Benko]

At least one study supports your contention that everyone should take vit K:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16030366

[FarmerD]

Benko,
Couple questions for you.  
1). Most doctors recommend a blood level of greater than 30 ng/dl for vitaminD while the vitamin d Council and Dr Davis recommend blood levels of 60 ng/dl.  What's your opinion on the appropriate/optimum level of vitamin d?

2) How much EPA/DHA from fish oil do you feel is appropriate.

BTW Steve Guyenet has a series of articles of Vitamin k2 where he discussed convertibility and discusses the various studies conducted on k2.  I can't paste a web link from my iPad so just google

Whole health source + vitamink2

[Benko]

Benko,
Couple questions for you.  
1). Most doctors recommend a blood level of greater than 30 ng/dl for vitaminD while the vitamin d Council and Dr Davis recommend blood levels of 60 ng/dl.  What's your opinion on the appropriate/optimum level of vitamin d?

No one knows for sure.  If your blood level is less than 30 you are grossly deficient (and the labcore now lists anything less than 30 as deficient).  At least 40-50 is probably a good idea.  Davis may be right.

2) How much EPA/DHA from fish oil do you feel is appropriate.

How much epa/dha for who?  healthy 20 year old?  healthy 40 year old with normal lipids?  50 year old with known heart disease and high e.g. triglyerides?

One of the heart associations (?AHA) has recommenndations for people with high triglycerides, etc. 

Thanks for the reference.  Oh and there is MK4 and MK7 i.e. different forms of K2.  And some people advocate more EPA (vs DHA) or more DHA vs EPA is different circumstances.  And in the end we really know very little, which is why I try to fall back on food unless there is really good evidence of NEED for supplements.

[MachineGhost]

I'm almost reluctant to wade into this thread for fear of freaking out people, but...  I take 35 supplements or so a day.

In general, people tend to be far too risk-averse about supplements and far too risk-taking about drugs or the unholy trinity of surgery, radiation and chemotherapy.  This is probably in accord with behavioral economics.  The same institutional factors that make the PP sensible to adopt are the same factors that make healthy eating and supplements sensible.

I consider it a fantastical notion to be able to get all of the RDI for vitamins and minerals from food (I've only seen it done on the "extreme" Pritikin Diet).  It's also fantastical to expect nature to have concentrated enough of the vital bio-agents beyond vitamins and minerals in food to promote optimal health.  It is what it is.

Regarding the PP analogy, I would consider it valid to view the PP as healthy food with VP being supplements.  But realistically, there is more than just the body...  there is the intellect, the spirit and the emotions.  So 25% to each.

[FarmerD]

  It's also fantastical to expect nature to have concentrated enough of the vital bio-agents beyond vitamins and minerals in food to promote optimal health.  It is what it is.

I think in the past you could get all the vitamins and minerals from the foods you eat but I'm not sure anymore.  Factory farming hurts the nutritional value of food quite a bit i fear.  Since I grew up on a farm I know there is a huge difference between the foods I ate as a kid versus the junk you see in a grocery store.  Grocery store chicken and eggs are horrible.  I grow tomatos and strawberries In my garden so my kids can know what they are supposed to taste like.  Brussels sprouts,  asparagus pears, apricots, raspberries, are a treat from the garden but not from the store. I can't help but feel the nutritional value is far less as well.