How Is China Different From the USSR?

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MediumTex »

I was thinking about this today, and I had trouble telling them apart.

China is different in that the rest of the world seems content to turn a blind eye to the way China treats its own people, while the USSR did seem to get a lot of bad press about the miserable living conditions its citizens experienced.

The USSR was more focused on and successful at projecting strength beyond its borders, while China seems content to stay closer to home in its power projection projects.

However, I think that time will tell that much of the Chinese economic data is just as phony as much of the USSR's was.

I also don't think that a centralized political dictatorship can be the basis for a world economic power for an extended period of time.  Sooner or later people get sick of watching the political elite get richer and richer, while the average person is subject to imprisonment for simply criticizing the government.

Anyone think that China's long term prospects as the world's largest capitalist economy being run by a group of communist dictators is uncertain?

As far as the prospects for a peaceful transition from a communist thugocracy to some kind of representative government, I don't see this happening, though I may be wrong.

When viewed from a distance there is something sort of comically absurd about China.  The whole concept of China becoming the world's largest capitalist economy when the political leaders profess to not even believe in capitalism is goofy.  It would be like Ron Paul presiding over a dramatic expansion of the welfare state.

Ultimately, of course, there is nothing ideological about China's political leadership.  It's just a typical dictatorship trying its best to stay in power for as long as possible.  What's weird is the way that so many aspects of a modern society (e.g., technology, education, culture, interest in the rest of the world, etc.) seem to be taking root in China against this basic backdrop of a very backward and oppressive regime.  I get the impression that Iran is faced with a similar disconnect between its people and its political leadership.

If the USSR is any guide to China's future, there will be difficult times ahead as power is slowly dispersed more broadly across society.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MachineGhost »

There are huge cultural and historical differences between the two countries.  Off the top of my head:

China has over 50 different ethnic groups.  Capitalism was enshrined into the "one political party only" in 1978 which is surprisingly transparent about its centrally-planned directives.  Entrepreunership is a cultural trait.  Internet censorship is limited to Tinnamen, Falun Jong, pornography and a few other areas that makes the censorship hype by the Western media seem really overblown.  Asians tend to be group-oriented and individuality is frowned up.  Look at the benevolent dictatorship of Singapore or the xenophobia of Japan.  Thailand is constantly ruled by military juntas.  Indonesia is the largest Muslim state and Malaysia is the largest Islamic state.  Democracy simply isn't necessary for success in Asia. 

Russia, by contrast, is a oligarcherical kleptocracy backwater ruled by the drunken, mafioso, corruption, cronyism, low regard for the rule of law and despicable human sexual trafficking.  We could only wish for the good ol' days of SCEPTRE.

MG
MediumTex wrote: I was thinking about this today, and I had trouble telling them apart.

China is different in that the rest of the world seems content to turn a blind eye to the way China treats its own people, while the USSR did seem to get a lot of bad press about the miserable living conditions its citizens experienced.

The USSR was more focused on and successful at projecting strength beyond its borders, while China seems content to stay closer to home in its power projection projects.

However, I think that time will tell that much of the Chinese economic data is just as phony as much of the USSR's was.

I also don't think that a centralized political dictatorship can be the basis for a world economic power for an extended period of time.  Sooner or later people get sick of watching the political elite get richer and richer, while the average person is subject to imprisonment for simply criticizing the government.

Anyone think that China's long term prospects as the world's largest capitalist economy being run by a group of communist dictators is uncertain?

As far as the prospects for a peaceful transition from a communist thugocracy to some kind of representative government, I don't see this happening, though I may be wrong.

When viewed from a distance there is something sort of comically absurd about China.  The whole concept of China becoming the world's largest capitalist economy when the political leaders profess to not even believe in capitalism is goofy.  It would be like Ron Paul presiding over a dramatic expansion of the welfare state.

Ultimately, of course, there is nothing ideological about China's political leadership.  It's just a typical dictatorship trying its best to stay in power for as long as possible.  What's weird is the way that so many aspects of a modern society (e.g., technology, education, culture, interest in the rest of the world, etc.) seem to be taking root in China against this basic backdrop of a very backward and oppressive regime.  I get the impression that Iran is faced with a similar disconnect between its people and its political leadership.

If the USSR is any guide to China's future, there will be difficult times ahead as power is slowly dispersed more broadly across society.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

Russia today is the product of Harvard economics professors. Russia today is what Harvard is trying to convert the West into being.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1018
http://www.softpanorama.org/Skeptics/Ps ... afia.shtml
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

China is doing some things very badly. We are also making mistakes of our own. To be honest I think it is important to look at countries like that both to make us cherish what we do well but also to learn from what they do well. Perhaps there is nothing that we would want to directly copy from them but perhaps some of what they do should open our eyes. They perhaps have reduced poverty in Africa by their interaction with Africa and Latin America whilst our interaction was purely exploitative. Perhaps they did react better to the 2008 crisis ???
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MediumTex »

I was mainly thinking about the communist to crony capitalist process in each nation and the fact that they are each enormously large nations that may both be subject to vast overestimations of their economic potential.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
AdamA
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2336
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by AdamA »

MediumTex wrote: What's weird is the way that so many aspects of a modern society (e.g., technology, education, culture, interest in the rest of the world, etc.) seem to be taking root in China against this basic backdrop of a very backward and oppressive regime. 
It is weird.

Was the same true in the USSR?  It seems like that's the difference.  i.e., the oppressive regime was there, but not the modern-world-taking-root phenom. 

For the record, though, I am not in the Chinia-will-rule-the-world-next camp.   
"All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone."

Pascal
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

MG, the USSR was also very ethnically diverse. A lot of it was Central Asian.

Adam, The USSR also had technological prowess in the 1960s. At the time of sputnik weren't they world leading in that regard? I almost think that the contrast between their best of the best achievements and the general life style of average soviets is the worst indicment of the gross inequity that socialism fosters. Socialism gives you Concord (a product of UK and French socialism) whilst capitalism gives you a Boeing 747. Socialism wins the Olympics (best results ever were USSR and then China in the Bejing Olympics. Socialism is all about the self importance of the elite. Capitalism without cronyism can be about the customer being right and everyone being the customer.

When the USSR collapsed I remember a mathematician saying that world mathematics was facing a catastrophe because top Soviet maths professors would move to the USA and in the USA there would be no students capable of being taught world class maths so the baton would not get passed on to the next generation.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

MediumTex wrote: I was mainly thinking about the communist to crony capitalist process in each nation and the fact that they are each enormously large nations that may both be subject to vast overestimations of their economic potential.
I'm not sure what you mean by economic potential. Isn't economic potential simply a function of having people? If the politics and culture are screwed then the potential will not be realized but there is still potential isn't there?
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MediumTex »

stone wrote: I almost think that the contrast between their best of the best achievements and the general life style of average soviets is the worst indicment of the gross inequity that socialism fosters.
Isn't it bizarre that a political system premised upon the idea of creating "a worker's paradise" turns out to be such a screw job for most of the workers?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MediumTex »

stone wrote:
MediumTex wrote: I was mainly thinking about the communist to crony capitalist process in each nation and the fact that they are each enormously large nations that may both be subject to vast overestimations of their economic potential.
I'm not sure what you mean by economic potential. Isn't economic potential simply a function of having people? If the politics and culture are screwed then the potential will not be realized but there is still potential isn't there?
You're right.  The point I was getting at is that in the same way that the U.S. spent several decades imagining that the USSR was more or less keeping up with it economically (or at least not falling dramatically behind), I wonder if we aren't having similar delusions about what China can actually accomplish economically when the nation is being run by bureaucratic dictators who will resort to brutal oppression in order to maintain power.

To me, for a nation to be a true economic power, there must be a property rights regime that allows any member of society to enforce his property rights, including against the state.  There must also be a free enough flow of information within the society to facilitate the efficient allocation of capital.  It seems to me that China has neither of these.

The problem is that once people get a taste of property rights and the free flow of financial information, they tend to want a taste of political rights and the free flow of ideological information.

The U.S., for all its faults, does have the huge advantage of providing a platform for people to pretty much say or think whatever they want to.  For example, I can call any politician an idiot without fearing for my personal safety.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

My guess is that China is aspiring to be like Singapore but with 200x the population. Perhaps with more creativity though?
I think socialism often results in power being in very few hands. The power is political power rather than classic financial power but it is still very concentrated power. It isn't all that different from oligarchy in that regard. Singapore has a benevolent dictator and is run like a big corporation. China perhaps is also trying to be like that. Using political orders to pull the strings or using financial power to pull strings is not all that different. To my mind the difference that matters is how widely dissipated power is when viewed in all of its various forms. In Singapore political power is very concentrated but perhaps financial power is fairly equitable? I guess some of the Chinese elite are actually well meaning and some are crooks. Much like here.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MachineGhost »

Not if you understand human nature.  You might want to look up the Bakunin vs Marx split.  Unfortunately, Marx won and proved Bakunin correct.

MG
MediumTex wrote:
stone wrote: Isn't it bizarre that a political system premised upon the idea of creating "a worker's paradise" turns out to be such a screw job for most of the workers?
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MachineGhost »

MediumTex wrote: You're right.  The point I was getting at is that in the same way that the U.S. spent several decades imagining that the USSR was more or less keeping up with it economically (or at least not falling dramatically behind), I wonder if we aren't having similar delusions about what China can actually accomplish economically when the nation is being run by bureaucratic dictators who will resort to brutal oppression in order to maintain power.
Considering that the Soviet Union stole 99% of its technology from the West and Chinese schooling kills imagination/creativity you may have a point what with all the Chinese espionage going on right now.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out China was a paper tiger in the end.  Remember all the fear about Japan in the 80's?  That turned out to be moot as well.
The problem is that once people get a taste of property rights and the free flow of financial information, they tend to want a taste of political rights and the free flow of ideological information.
How has that worked out for Singaporeans?
The U.S., for all its faults, does have the huge advantage of providing a platform for people to pretty much say or think whatever they want to.  For example, I can call any politician an idiot without fearing for my personal safety.
Yeah well, you can't call the President an idiot in a town hall meeting or Secret Service will escort you out, possibly worse.  So there are practical limits on free speech.  You are guilty until proven innocent to have any rights anymore.  That's still better than not having any due process at all.

As China becomes more like the USA, we are becoming more like China.  Eventually, something is going to give.

MG
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 15322
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: searching for the lost Xanadu
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by dualstow »

The Soviets never really had a Deng Xiaoping.
China, as far as I know, never had a Mikhail Khodorovsky.

There is some overlap, but there are so many significant differences. The Chinese have always been entrepreneurs (both large and small). I lived in Russia briefly during an uncomfortable transition (1994), and maybe I'm biased, but....Russia is different. Theirs is a more desperate situation.

China's economy will almost certainly overheat, or perhaps it will finally deal a deathblow to the Communist Party (which is of course communist only in name). Something's got to give, eventually.

But, if you were forced into a plane tomorrow and had to live out the rest of your life in Beijing or Moscow, which city would you choose?
Last edited by dualstow on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2752
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by Tortoise »

MachineGhost wrote: Considering that the Soviet Union stole 99% of its technology from the West and Chinese schooling kills imagination/creativity you may have a point what with all the Chinese espionage going on right now.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out China was a paper tiger in the end.
Chinese schooling may be "killing" imagination and creativity, but China accounts for a whopping 34% of engineering degrees awarded globally (compared to the U.S.'s mere 4%).

Even on a per-capita basis, that's pretty impressive for China. Whereas the U.S. has about 4% of the world's population and awards roughly the same percentage of its engineering degrees, China contains a little under 1/5 of the world's population but is churning out over 1/3 of its new engineers. For a non-first-world country, that's impressive.

I don't think those numbers are just smoke and mirrors, either. When I was in grad school studying electrical engineering, most of my classes were filled with students from China (non-U.S. citizens). They are extremely bright and intimidatingly disciplined; they're no joke.

At its (perceived) peak, was the Soviet Union churning out a disproportionately large fraction of the world's engineers, or businessmen, or other professionals?
MachineGhost wrote: As China becomes more like the USA, we are becoming more like China.  Eventually, something is going to give.
I interpret the statistics above to be at least one important way in which China is becoming markedly less like the U.S.

China evidently places a high cultural value on engineering and scientific knowledge. The U.S. does not. To the extent that the long-term growth prospects of a high-tech economy depend critically on a steady stream of new engineers and scientists, China may be building a much stronger intellectual foundation for its future than the U.S. currently is--a foundation which may even survive the crumbling of a failed communist system.
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MediumTex »

dualstow wrote: The Soviets never really had a Deng Xiaoping.
China, as far as I know, never had a Mikhail Khodorovsky.

There is some overlap, but there are so many significant differences. The Chinese have always been entrepreneurs (both large and small). I lived in Russia briefly during an uncomfortable transition (1994), and maybe I'm biased, but....Russia is different. Theirs is a more desperate situation.

China's economy will almost certainly overheat, or perhaps it will finally deal a deathblow to the Communist Party (which is of course communist only in name). Something's got to give, eventually.

But, if you were forced into a plane tomorrow and had to live out the rest of your life in Beijing or Moscow, which city would you choose?
Perhaps the Soviet Union was just several decades ahead of China.

In the 1950s, the Soviet economy grew faster than the U.S. economy and it looked for a time like the Soviet Union was passing the U.S. by due to the superiority of its economic system (i.e., central planning within a dictatorial framework).

To MachineGhost's points about China churning out engineers, weren't the Soviet era engineers considered to be among the world's finest?  Their 1950s space program was amazing.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2752
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by Tortoise »

MediumTex wrote: To MachineGhost's points about China churning out engineers, weren't the Soviet era engineers considered to be among the world's finest?  Their 1950s space program was amazing.
That was actually me who mentioned China's churning out of engineers :)

You make a good point about the good reputation of Soviet engineers, but didn't they also have some of the world's top musicians, composers, and writers? In the case of the Soviet Union, it seemed like what they did was identify children's innate talents as early as possible and then funnel them (force them, even?) directly into ultra-focused training programs to maximize their potential--in whatever area they were talented in. Central planning in action.

I'm not sure the Soviet Union had a general cultural emphasis on engineering and science like China seems to currently have. But I could be wrong about that. Others on this forum would probably be more familiar with the history there.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 15322
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: searching for the lost Xanadu
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by dualstow »

While I was following this thread, the following story was broadcast on NPR. Good stuff.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/ ... rmed-china
In 1978, the farmers in a small Chinese village called Xiaogang gathered in a mud hut to sign a secret contract. They thought it might get them executed. Instead, it wound up transforming China's economy in ways that are still reverberating today.
...
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MediumTex »

Tortoise wrote:
MediumTex wrote: To MachineGhost's points about China churning out engineers, weren't the Soviet era engineers considered to be among the world's finest?  Their 1950s space program was amazing.
That was actually me who mentioned China's churning out of engineers :)

You make a good point about the good reputation of Soviet engineers, but didn't they also have some of the world's top musicians, composers, and writers? In the case of the Soviet Union, it seemed like what they did was identify children's innate talents as early as possible and then funnel them (force them, even?) directly into ultra-focused training programs to maximize their potential--in whatever area they were talented in. Central planning in action.

I'm not sure the Soviet Union had a general cultural emphasis on engineering and science like China seems to currently have. But I could be wrong about that. Others on this forum would probably be more familiar with the history there.
I would say that the fact that the Soviet Union in many ways paved the way in humanity's quest to explore space is prima facie evidence of its superiority in generating engineers, whether or not it was a point of cultural emphasis.

As far as China's exploits in engineering and science, aren't they currently planning space exploration projects that the U.S. achieved over 40 years ago (i.e., a manned Moon mission)?  If that's the cutting edge of their engineering it's not that impressive.

Perhaps there is some other area in which China is generating cutting edge research or technological breakthroughs that I am not aware of.  Are there any universities in China that draw students from around the world because of the advanced research they are doing?

Here is something to think about:  In the last 10 years, the U.S. has generated over 65 Nobel Prize winners.  During that same period, China has generated three, one of whom, Liu Xiaobo, was not permitted to receive the award because he is in prison and his family is under house arrest because his writings have been critical of the Chinese political system, so it's really more like two.

Interestingly, if you compare the Soviet Union of the 1950s to the China of today using the Nobel Prize as a measure of advancement, the Soviet Union produced nine Nobel Prize winners in the 1956-1965 period. 

Ironically, one of the Soviet Union's Nobel Prize winners during this period was Boris Pasternak for Literature, who was also forced to decline the award in a situation not dissimilar from Liu Xiaobose's:
Outside Russia, Pasternak is best known for authoring Doctor Zhivago, a novel which spans the last years of Czarist Russia and the earliest days of the Soviet Union. Banned in the USSR, Doctor Zhivago was smuggled to Milan and published in 1957. Pasternak was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature the following year, an event which both humiliated and enraged the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. In the midst of massive campaign against him by both the KGB and the Union of Soviet Writers, Pasternak reluctantly agreed to decline the Prize. In his resignation letter to the Nobel Committee, Pasternak stated the reaction of the Soviet State was the only reason for his decision.

I would say that China is generally heading in an impressive direction when it comes to moving away from the status of a Third World dictatorship.  However, I think that if you compared China today to the Soviet Union in 1956, you might have to say that the Soviet Union is the country that looked to have more promise.  (That's just my opinion, of course.)
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

I think daulstow's link really nails the contrast between China's surge of recent decades and the Soviet 1950s and 1960s prowess. Dualstow's link suggests that in China, the key factor was individual peasants taking control of plots of land to farm as they saw fit. Basically it was a massive dissipation of centralized power. It was much like General McArthur's breaking up of the dynastic nobility system in post war Japan except that rather than power going from the nobles to the peasants, it went from party officials to peasants. Whether someone is a noble or a party official is basically the same difference- it is just a figure of speach IMO. Basically all the ingenuity of all the people was unleashed. What needed doing got done whilst before  a party official gave directives and the crops failed because people either had no inclination to do as they were told and/or the directives were not atuned to what the workers on the ground were observing needed doing.
By contrast the post war soviet system was an elitist meritocracy as Tortoise described. Anyone who looked like they might be a top ballet dancer or physicist or industrial planner was hot housed BUT "Average Joes" were just herded about. IMO a truely successful economy needs to fully tap into the tallents and ingenuity of Average Joes endevoring to meet the needs and aspirations of Average Joes. The soviet union collapsed because it squandered its resource of Average Joes IMO. Basically any nation overwhelmingly is Average Joes.

I noticed a few years ago that many top molecular biology papers seemed to be the work of Chinese bench scientists working in American labs. Then the names of the American lab heads also became Chinese. Now some of those type of papers are coming from Chinese universities. I think China may soon start being a leading contributor to world science like the Soviet Union was.

Manned space exploration is not science. It is a moronic stunt -basically just like a firework display but with hundreds of billions of dollars going up in smoke.
Last edited by stone on Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MachineGhost »

By contrast the post war soviet system was an elitist meritocracy as Medium Tex described. Anyone who looked like they might be a top ballet dancer or physicist or industrial planner was hot housed BUT average joes were just herded about. IMO a truely successful economy needs to fully tap into the tallents and ingenuity of average Joes endevoring to meet the needs and aspirations of average Joes. The soviet union collapsed because it squandered its resource of average Joes IMO. Basically any nation overwhelmingly is average Joes.
So the Soviet Union failed because it didn't tap into the wisdom of the proletariats?  That's more arguably communist than Communism was!  :D

Does anyone know if it is true or not that the Berlin Wall "fell" due to a reading comprehension mistake of a memo by some East German official eating lunch?

I'm not sanguine that neurotism and fancy engineering degrees will make up for a lack of collective cultural imagination and creativity instead of espionage, imitation and piracy.  It didn't save the Soviet Union, why should it save China?  However, it is clear some kind of catacalystic event will be necessary to kick the Chinese out of their collective stupor (I view a 1930's style Great Depression as a good probability).  It's after that point I will start to worry about the ability to compete with the Chinese.

MG
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by MediumTex »

stone wrote: Manned space exploration is not science. It is a moronic stunt -basically just like a firework display but with hundreds of billions of dollars going up in smoke.
I don't want to get us too off topic, but this is an interesting idea.

How would you compare the space exploration in the second half of the 20th century to the pyramids and other monument building programs in ancient Egypt?

They strike me as similar efforts.

I only cite space exploration as a symbol of scientific prowess because it is sometimes viewed that way, but I also see the moronic stunt aspect of it.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

Manned space exploration is a display of scientific prowess but it is not science. Science is about finding out about stuff rather than merely displaying technology. The Large Hadron Collider is both a display of technology that has come from science and also science in its own right since discoveries it makes could shape what we know. Much great science does not use cutting edge technology. Some Nobel prizes have been for discoveries that were made using mundane technology (eg  recently for graphene which was made using sticky tape).

To me the natural successor to the manned moon missions would be to send a whale to the moon and back. That would be a tremendous display of prowess and stupidity. I guess technological breakthroughs would be made during the effort and lots of jobs would be created.
Last edited by stone on Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
stone
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2627
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by stone »

Personally, I really hope the Chinese make a good job of things. I think the West really needs a good example to look up to. Even if we choose to follow a different path I think it is important to have a neighbour doing better than us in order to inspire us to do well. I don't think the rest of the World looses out due to Singapore's prosperity. If China became a huge version of that then perhaps the whole world might benefit?
MachineGhost wrote: So the Soviet Union failed because it didn't tap into the wisdom of the proletariats?  That's more arguably communist than Communism was!  :D


To me capitalism from an equal starting point is a bit like how Google (supposidly) used thousands of standard personal computors all working together to provide enormous computing power. Millions of eyes, ears and brains all working at once is what it takes to run an economy. Not to mention that the economy will then cater for those involved.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment." - Mulla Nasrudin
User avatar
Tortoise
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2752
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:35 am

Re: How Is China Different From the USSR?

Post by Tortoise »

MediumTex wrote: As far as China's exploits in engineering and science, aren't they currently planning space exploration projects that the U.S. achieved over 40 years ago (i.e., a manned Moon mission)?  If that's the cutting edge of their engineering it's not that impressive.

Perhaps there is some other area in which China is generating cutting edge research or technological breakthroughs that I am not aware of.
A good portion of China's notable engineering achievements seem to be in the realm of computers. For example, in November of 2010, a Chinese supercomputer took the #1 spot on a list of the world's fastest. Granted, it did not use Chinese-designed chips (it used U.S.-designed NVIDIA GPUs), but the custom high-speed interconnection between all of those GPUs was a Chinese engineering accomplishment in its own right.

Also, Chinese-designed chips seem to be taking great strides. One of China's microprocessors, the Godson-3B, has recently set the world record in energy efficiency--more than doubling the performance per watt of its competitors.
Post Reply