Gyroscopic Investing

moda0306 wrote: Are problems with overhead press mainly with power lifting, or do we see it even high-rep-low-weight lifting?

All problems are with bad form or too fast speed.

moda0306 wrote: Do you have any opinions on dead lift, cleans, bench, squat, or front squat?  These are my standards.

To hit every muscle group, this is all you need (majors listed in parathesis):

Bench Press (Chest)
Squat (Quads)
Standing Overhead Press (Shoulders)
Bent-Over Barbell Row (MidBack)
Stiff-Leg Dead Lift (LowerBack)
Calves (Calves)
Chins Ups (UpperBack)
Neck Extension/Flexion (Neck)

The first Big Five are mandatory, but the last three will get weak if you're not a recreational exerciser or are a SVOL.  This should take you no more than 20-30 minutes.  I hate the neck stretching the most because that is in my problem area.  I should actually do it everyday, but it's just too boring.

moda0306 wrote: No need to respond if you don't have time, but I figured I'd get your take on it if you were interested.

I didn't read it but I wouldn't take any advice from a CrossFit trainer or groupie.  They know virtually nothing about safety at all (bad for business), so it seems rather hypocritical for them to be sponsering a safety study.

moda0306 wrote: I've dabbled in doing squats and cleans before, but never gotten into them like I've done now, and never done dead lift with any confidence/weight, but along with losing weight, and doing only a modest amount of "cosmetic" lifts like curls and butterflies and abs and such, I'm curious to see what my body is going to look like. I really am starting to feel like it will simply be more athletic, and definitely not the "meat head" juicer look by any means.  I really think these lifts are so fundamental. It kills me to see people bobbing around machines and doing more curls than anything else.

The clean is not necessary when doing the Big Five and if I'm recalling the clean right, then I got a groin sprain from it once (not fun, especially diagnosis!), though that might been the clean and jerk.  The point is to avoid exercises with a lot of flexion or extension moves as they can be unsafe, obviously.

Benko wrote: 3.  These sharp bone AC bumps can come from wear and tear arthritis OR a  highly skilled physical therapist I know (the one who helped me above) said that if you do regular overhead lifts sooner or later you  will develop one of these bumps.  Whether or how fast you develop one of these bumps, how narrow the opening isto begin with, etc vary from person to person.

What is the alternative to working the shoulders, then?

MangoMan wrote: Sorry for the ignorance, google search was no help.

What exactly does SVOL stand for? It's been used several times by different posters and I have no clue what it means.

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... #msg108332

MachineGhost wrote:

Benko wrote: 3.  These sharp bone AC bumps can come from wear and tear arthritis OR a  highly skilled physical therapist I know (the one who helped me above) said that if you do regular overhead lifts sooner or later you  will develop one of these bumps.  Whether or how fast you develop one of these bumps, how narrow the opening isto begin with, etc vary from person to person.

What is the alternative to working the shoulders, then?

Working which shoulder muscles, for what purpose?  Certainly rotator cuff prehab will not hurt anyone done right.  "lateral raises" with dumbells at 45 degree angle i.e. half way beetween straight in front of you and straight at your side are safe for most.

Many highly competent trainers don't recommend any direct shoulder work.  Well unless their clients needs prehab/rehab rotator cuff stuff. 

And many people can get away with overhead presses.  many people can probably get away with behind the neck presses and  upright rows as well, though all will cause problems for many. 

Benko wrote: Working which shoulder muscles, for what purpose?  Certainly rotator cuff prehab will not hurt anyone done right.  "lateral raises" with dumbells at 45 degree angle i.e. half way beetween straight in front of you and straight at your side are safe for most.

Many highly competent trainers don't recommend any direct shoulder work.  Well unless their clients needs prehab/rehab rotator cuff stuff. 

And many people can get away with overhead presses.  many people can probably get away with behind the neck presses and  upright rows as well, though all will cause problems for many.

Well, besides doing the front, middle and back of the deltoids, also doing the biceps and triceps.  Point is to maximize effort with minimum time and minimal number of different exercises to reduce catabolism, risk of injury and boredom/resistance.  I found this study:

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-cond ... bbell-and-

So I think I'll will stick with the front standing barbell overhead press.  It's not causing me any issues unlike the back of the neck position did.  I think focusing on individual muscles is a stupid waste of time.

Also I work out my shoulders doing the wide grip gullitone bench press which is the most effective of all the bench presses.  I wouldn't recommend it for beginners!  I once allowed a barbell with weights to rapidly drop onto my chest when I wasn't being careful (I didn't know abut constricting during both phases back then) and was sore for a week or two when breathing in.  You can literally die if that happens to your neck, hence the guillitone.

Color me skeptical. If fasting had such wonderful health benefits, Orthodox Christians would routinely be living to 100. Yes, I lose some weight during Lent. But it tends to come right back by the end of Bright Week. 

MachineGhost wrote:

Benko wrote: 3.  These sharp bone AC bumps can come from wear and tear arthritis OR a  highly skilled physical therapist I know (the one who helped me above) said that if you do regular overhead lifts sooner or later you  will develop one of these bumps.  Whether or how fast you develop one of these bumps, how narrow the opening isto begin with, etc vary from person to person.

What is the alternative to working the shoulders, then?

I'm a big fan of Turkish get ups as a shoulder stabilising exercise. I like rock climbing and that is notoriously prone to causing shoulder problems. The Turkish get ups seem to keep everything stable and niggle free (fingers crossed).

MachineGhost wrote:
Well, besides doing the front, middle and back of the deltoids,

I can think of lots of reasons that squats, deadlifts, etc are beneficial.  What benefits are there to working out ones delts?  Unless one needs e.g. post delt work for rehab/prehab. 

MachineGhost wrote: also doing the biceps and triceps.  Point is to maximize effort with minimum time and minimal number of different exercises

Agree.  So just forget the delts.  Working them is unnecessary for most people (unless you're a bodybuilder).

pressing e.g. benches get the tris and rowing the biceps.  And if you're not doing some rowing i.e. horizontal pulling to counteract the pressing you're creating imbalances which will hurt you big time long term. 

Ad Orientem wrote: Color me skeptical. If fasting had such wonderful health benefits, Orthodox Christians would routinely be living to 100. Yes, I lose some weight during Lent. But it tends to come right back by the end of Bright Week. 

It has to be chronic, not acute.

stone wrote: I'm a big fan of Turkish get ups as a shoulder stabilising exercise. I like rock climbing and that is notoriously prone to causing shoulder problems. The Turkish get ups seem to keep everything stable and niggle free (fingers crossed).

Got a good link about what this is?

MG shoulder stabilizing does have benefits (needed by some e.g. rock climbers more than others).

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... kish_getup

more on that link

Step 1) Lie on your back on the floor. Hold a dumbbell in one hand extended in the air above you. Your elbow should be locked.

Step 2) Now the fun begins. You goal is to stand up with it, without unlocking your elbow and keeping the dumbbell in the air above you. The first step is usually to turn to your side and prop yourself up on one hand.

Step 3) Try to get up on one knee. The arm with the dumbbell should still be vertical and locked tight.

Step 4) Now stand up completely.

Step 5) This part is optional, but try it at least once or we’ll think you’re a sissy-boy. Reverse the movement until you’re back at step one — lying on the floor with the weight still extended above you.

Benko wrote: I can think of lots of reasons that squats, deadlifts, etc are beneficial.  What benefits are there to working out ones delts?  Unless one needs e.g. post delt work for rehab/prehab. 

You got me, but it looks like the overhead press specifically works the delts, the upper trapezoid and the triceps.  It seems to be included in every core weightlifting regime, including the Big Five.  Best I can surmise it helps support the neck which tends to be overlooked, weak and prone to injury, especially in sports.  If you shoot guns, you definitely need shoulder strength to manage the recoil.  I doubt most weightlifters are gun nuts, though!  I'm sure there is a more satisfying answer out there for why it is necessary to work the region. 

Agree.  So just forget the delts.  Working them is unnecessary for most people (unless you're a bodybuilder).

I'm not going to do that just on your word.  We both know the vast majority of people don't workout correctly or engage in exercises that damage their joints.  Correlation is not causation.  Need more concrete proof that Overhead Presses specifically cause the damage you see in the x-rays.

MachineGhost wrote: Need more concrete proof that Overhead Presses specifically cause the damage you see in the x-rays.

They don't that isn't the point.

REAL SIMPLE:

1. many people (for whatever reason including the way their bones are shaped) can get away with doing overhead presses long term.

2.  Some people cannot (probably multifactorial including same reasons).  By the time you have discovered that you are one of the unlucky ones, you have those nasty boney spurs and depending on how big/bad they are, they may interfere with your daily activities.

Sooo unless you have a real good reason for doing them, you are taking a risk without knowing why and risking a bad outcome that is unpleasant.  Not final, it can be fixed, but requires surgery.

Everything in life is risk/benefit.  I'm just pointing out a risk that many are taking that they are not aware of. 

There are apparently lots of other things going on that make overhead pressing problematic. I've only listed one that best I know, there is no way of avoiding.  Eric CRessey is excellent and very knowledgeable about prehab/injuries. 

This is worth reading:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... d_pressing

Benko wrote: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... d_pressing

Good stuff!  Would you say that Henry Rollins (of RHCP fame) has depressed shoulders?

Just another anecdotal update on intermittent fasting:

Conclusion:

I love it!

Details:

1) I've been holding my calories to about an average of 1,800 net per day (after backing out exercise calorie-burnt estimates).  My goal is 1,580.  I want to get to about 170 lbs.  Currently at 190.  Depending on how I feel/look at that time, I may tweak my goals.

2) I lift 3 times per week.  I definitely pack calories in before/after on those days, and let myself go a bit looser.

3) I eat a pretty nutritious diet and TRY to model it after the PHD, but with too much beer and eating out consuming grains and too-often bad-oil fried food.

4) I take an AM/PM blend of multivitamins.

5) About 3 days a week, I essentially intermittently-fast by skipping breakfast.  I've had many incidents, including right now, that contain the following circumstances:

a) At or under previous-day calorie limit.
b) Skip breakfast except coffee with a bit of h&h.
c) Come to lunch somewhere between not hungry at all, and only modestly hungry.


I'm convinced, at this point, that unless I'm seeing some version of the placbo effect, that my more nutritious diet, combined with better sleep habits, have helped my body stay better-nourished and therefore kept my appetite down.

I'm looking forward to sort of pigging-out tonight, yet still staying within my 1,600 calorie net goal.

Intermittent fasting has proven to be a combination of both directly and indirectly contributing to my "dieting" goals.  Directly, it seems to be helping me eat less on any given day, as I coast through fat-burning states longer.  Indirectly, it helps me confirm my appetite reduction throuh mini-experiments (gauging how I feel at lunch-time after a low-cal previous day and a no-cal morning).  Also, it gives me a bit of a game to play, if I forget or forego bringing a lunch, where I see if I can make it to 5:00 or 6:00 before eating.

Of course, trying to eat HEALTHY within this paradigm is also important... though sometimes difficult when in social situations.  This is why I try to buy a lot of vegetables and pig out on those whenever possible in social situations, as well as take vitamin supplements.

Oh and P.S....

Anyone who sad you can't gain strength and cut weight at the same time is either doing somethng wrong, or my "muscle memory" from HS/College is treating me unusually well.  If you have a solid strength-training program, are eating GOOD FOOD, and are making sure you're pigging out a bit on the days you lift, I think you'll be able to do both simultaneously.

Over a time period where I've lost about 20 lbs, I've improved my core lifts.    Perhaps it's more efficient to do it in a different manner, but I think mentally, approaching health from multiple angles at once, rather than one thing at a time (for me), is more motivating.


Oh and PPS:

I've started doing rows.  I love them as another core lift.  Cheers to Benko for recommending them.  So my main lifts are:

Squat (and front-squat)
Dead Lift (opposing hand grip)
Bench Press
Clean
Clean & Snatch
No more overhead press  (due to warnings from Benko and the Internet, as well as clean/snatch & incline bench covering that movement well-enough)
Rows

My more cosmetic lifts I've added are:

Curls
Delt side lifts (whatever they're called... I want my delts to pop)
Incline Bench (usually 25%-33% of the time I'm doing bench, I substitute incline)
(I may add some ab & pull/chin-up work after I get closer to my goal weight)

moda0306 wrote: Anyone who sad you can't gain strength and cut weight at the same time is either doing somethng wrong, or my "muscle memory" from HS/College is treating me unusually well.  If you have a solid strength-training program, are eating GOOD FOOD, and are making sure you're pigging out a bit on the days you lift, I think you'll be able to do both simultaneously.

Over a time period where I've lost about 20 lbs, I've improved my core lifts.    Perhaps it's more efficient to do it in a different manner, but I think mentally, approaching health from multiple angles at once, rather than one thing at a time (for me), is more motivating.

Strength gains are mostly neurological in the beginning. Muscle/neurological memory also plays a large part. And there's nothing stopping a person from converting fat -> energy -> muscle thus allowing one to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. But you'll undoubtedly reach a point when further strength gains require additional muscle mass and unless you have a ton of excess fat to convert to energy, you'll have to increase calories and thus gain weight.

iwealth,

Unless I get "addicted" to rapid-ish weight loss, at about 170 lbs I'll probably start adjusting my calories back up from a 1,600 goal.

However, I am essentially asking myself every step along the way "would I rather have more muscle, or less fat," and I'll probably start adjusting my strategy accordingly when the answer becomes more obvious one way vs the other.  Right now, I want both but with more focus on losing weight, and I'm getting both.

But I agree... these early stages you can pretty much look at a barbell and get a bit stronger.  What I like is that losing weight is now getting EASIER after a few months of tracking calories, eating much healthier, and trying to cut (some) beer out.  The other part will get more difficult, though.

moda0306 wrote: iwealth,

Unless I get "addicted" to rapid-ish weight loss, at about 170 lbs I'll probably start adjusting my calories back up from a 1,600 goal.

Funny you mention that. I experienced something like this back in 2010. I'm a pretty average guy, 5'10" and probably 170lbs at that time, but I was in terrible terrible shape. So I started strict calorie counting,  compound lifts, and treadmill interval training on the off-lifting days. Within six months I dropped to 145lbs with dramatically increased lifts (not surprising considering I started with benching 95lbs). And I went from struggling to run a single 12-minute mile to running 3 miles in <23 minutes. Not exactly fast by runner's standards but I felt like I was blazing along.

But I looked like I was starving...like bones and veins visible. People were concerned, and it got to a point where if I saw the scale rise, it felt like failure. Weight loss wasn't the goal to begin with, but for whatever reason I became a slave to that metric. Not sure what made me finally snap out of it, but weight loss addiction is real. Watch out for it!

iwealth wrote:

moda0306 wrote: iwealth,

Unless I get "addicted" to rapid-ish weight loss, at about 170 lbs I'll probably start adjusting my calories back up from a 1,600 goal.

Funny you mention that. I experienced something like this back in 2010. I'm a pretty average guy, 5'10" and probably 170lbs at that time, but I was in terrible terrible shape. So I started strict calorie counting,  compound lifts, and treadmill interval training on the off-lifting days. Within six months I dropped to 145lbs with dramatically increased lifts (not surprising considering I started with benching 95lbs). And I went from struggling to run a single 12-minute mile to running 3 miles in <23 minutes. Not exactly fast by runner's standards but I felt like I was blazing along.

But I looked like I was starving...like bones and veins visible. People were concerned, and it got to a point where if I saw the scale rise, it felt like failure. Weight loss wasn't the goal to begin with, but for whatever reason I became a slave to that metric. Not sure what made me finally snap out of it, but weight loss addiction is real. Watch out for it!

I think I'll try to make a point to not go below a certain body fat %.  I'm really aiming for health more-so than some crazy fitness goal.  And given how important good fat INTAKE is in the PHD mentality (which I mostly buy into), I doubt I'll let my stock of fat get down to grossly unhealthy levels.

But who knows.  Perhaps I should be careful.

I was 160 in college and looked sorta skinny.  I'm happy with 170 at age 30.  5'10" and 145 is pretty damn thin.  However, some people "wear" thin better than others. Unfortunately, I don't "wear" thin OR fat very well.  I kinda have to be in a prime of lifting weights and not much fat.

I wish I was one of those dudes who could look good kinda pudgy.  That, I am not.

Another Update...


Hey guys... I thought I'd report on how this intermittent fasting thing is going:

- I love it.  I have had a few days in a row of consuming about 1,500 calories each, and with very few hunger urges.  This is pretty mind-boggling to me, because I thought this whole weight loss thing would be far more miserable.

- I continue to eat pretty healthy, along with vitamin/mineral supplements.  I'm pretty convinced that this has a LOT to do with my lack of cravings.  The author of the Perfect Health Diet asserted as much, and I wouldn't have believed it but for my experience with cravings.

- I probably average about 45% Fat, 35% carbs, and 20% protein.  My "goal" is 50/30/20... or perhaps fewer carbs and a smidge more healthy fats.

- Coffee has been a great aid in appetite suppression, in my estimation.

- I'm starting to plateau with my lifting, but instead of going for gains I've pulled back a bit with the lifting (sort of accepting the plateau), have started walking in the morning, and I'm going to try to pull back to 180 lbs before re-engaging making strength gains.

- I'm generally more energetic, positive and attentive than I used to be.

- Calorie-counting via My Fitness Pal is still helping a ton, but now more-so to help manage getting the right amount of different calories, as well as tracking certain micro-nutrient levels (though I wish it had more).


Just thought I'd lay a little more advocacy to the Perfect Health Diet philosophy, including the concept of intermittent fasting.

moda0306 wrote: - I love it.  I have had a few days in a row of consuming about 1,500 calories each, and with very few hunger urges.  This is pretty mind-boggling to me, because I thought this whole weight loss thing would be far more miserable.

In the other thread you said you were eating 2500 calories?  Is that what you were eating before 1500?

- I continue to eat pretty healthy, along with vitamin/mineral supplements.  I'm pretty convinced that this has a LOT to do with my lack of cravings.  The author of the Perfect Health Diet asserted as much, and I wouldn't have believed it but for my experience with cravings.

The body only has cravings to urge you to correct nutritional defenciencies.  There's really no other way.  The chromium is probably helping you a lot.  You should be taking 400mcg-500mcg so I imagine you're still under that.

- Coffee has been a great aid in appetite suppression, in my estimation.

It definitely blunts appetite so long as you don't overdo it and stimulate your metabolism and get too hungry.

- I'm starting to plateau with my lifting, but instead of going for gains I've pulled back a bit with the lifting (sort of accepting the plateau), have started walking in the morning, and I'm going to try to pull back to 180 lbs before re-engaging making strength gains.

It sounds like your thyroid may be downshifting already.  1500 is extreme, you know.  You might want to start tracking your wakeup (while still laying in bed) armpit temperature to make sure it doesn't go too low.

- Calorie-counting via My Fitness Pal is still helping a ton, but now more-so to help manage getting the right amount of different calories, as well as tracking certain micro-nutrient levels (though I wish it had more).

You can review all your meals with this to see what needs fixing: https://cronometer.com/