Gyroscopic Investing

Good. I'm tired so it probably short circuited my sarcasm fuse.

Desert wrote: I understand!   

I still have a faint hope of making my brisket and red wine diet the latest craze to sweep the nation. 

I'm on board!  Choo choo!

moda0306 wrote:
1) The closest thing I'm doing to "olympic lifts to failure" is super-light cleans and overhead press x 50 reps.  Any thoughts?

Re: Overhead presses:

Your rotator cuff tendons travel in a very small space between the top of your armbone (humeral head) and the bottom of the outside of the collarbone. Many people who do overhead presses long enough will develop problems.  This depends on a number of factors, some the waythe bones in your shoulder are shaped i.e. the way you were born.  I don't know any way to predict who will and who will not have problems.  At a minimum if you let your arms hang at your sides , the palms should point in towards your body, and NOT point back i.e. towards behind you.  If they point, towards bak you, have a problem or potential problem.


2.   

moda0306 wrote: I try to stick with the ones insanely high in micronutrients.  I get enough carbs in my diet elsewhere that veggies are mostly a stomach-filler & micro-nutrient delivery system.

I suspect micronutrients means traditional e.g. vitamins, minerals, etc.  I select veggies/fruits more for phytonutrients (which could be what you are referring to but I suspect not) as well as just different colors, etc.

Hope that helps.

My palms face more back than they do sideways when I let my hands rest at my sides.  Not straight back, but more back than sideways.  Is this a problem??


As much as I love overhead press, I'm not doing it much anymore, and I've heard things like you've mentioned.  I can substitute different exercises in my "Spartan" workout so I'll keep that out.

Are problems with overhead press mainly with power lifting, or do we see it even high-rep-low-weight lifting?

Thanks!

BTW,

I'm a couple weeks in on minimal breakfasts, and 5 days into skipping/VERY-small breakfast, and I love it.  I really think it has to do with having other aspects of health buttoned down to a reasonable degree.  If you eat too many calories, unhealthy foods, not enough micro-nutrients, are dehydrated, and only get 5.5 hours of sleep, you're probably going to reach 11:30 AM on a "skip breakfast" day pretty crabby and with low energy.

Last night, after doing some back and front squats (front squats are friggin awesome btw), I went grocery shopping, and rewarding myself with some turkey tacos, and even though I try like the dickens to cut out grains, I used the Mission carb-balance tortillas, where 13 of the 19 grams of carbs in each tortilla are fiber, and a grape-ape drink (limon vodka and grape soda).  I had two decent sized tacos, and stayed within my net carb limit for the day.  I feel great today, to boot, an it was a good way to shove myself full of post workout nutrients to manage the balance of trying to cut while gaining muscle/strength simultaneously, which I've heard is quite difficult without being pretty particular about when you're throwing a ton of food in your body, an when you're not.

One other trick I've found is making your plate of food and putting leftovers in the fridge right then rather than having them sit out on the table in front of you.  It makes cleanup more fun, too, when you've already put everything away and just have to do some dishes.  Having a table full of food in front of me makes it feel more like a real family meal, but man what a piss-poor way of trying to control your appetite!  It's also cool if you have small tupperwear to separate the food out into lunches to take to work, reducing your chances of eating out, and increasing the quality of the food you're eating as oppozed to those freezer meals.



BTW, if any of you find that it's had to get your vegetables, both Green Giant and Bird's Eye have these steamer frozen vegetable bags now, and they're awesome!!  You nuke them for 5 minutes and you have fresh steamed vegetables without preservatives.  The idea of preparing broccoli in a traditional manner from produce is asinine to me within my current motivational/habit scheme, and these things fit perfectly within that. 

Right now, Cub Foods has 10 for $10 Green Giant steamer bags in the frozen foods section.  I loaded up last night.  $1 for like 3-4 servings of green vegetables... broccoli, mixed, green beans, peas, cauliflower, carrots, corn (garbage that it is), brussel sprouts, rice, etc.  Great stuff.

Benko,

What about incline bench?  One of my favorite lifts!  Too close to overhead press?

moda0306 wrote: My palms face more back than they do sideways when I let my hands rest at my sides.  Not straight back, but more back than sideways.  Is this a problem??

Probably not as such.  Problem is tendency is to do more pushing e.g. bench and less rowing i.e. horizontal pull and this can get worse over time and create problems.  Safest is to do more rowing i.e. horizontal pulling and also this occasionally:

Lay on flat surface e.g. floor and try to press the top back corner of your shoulders into the floor.  try sets 10-20 coupla times a week

and monitor the arms hanging at your side once a month or so.  if your plams start to face more and more back that can indicate real problems i.e. rotator cuff problems in long term. 

moda0306 wrote:
Are problems with overhead press mainly with power lifting, or do we see it even high-rep-low-weight lifting?

Thanks!

I think the issue is high reps over time  at least potentially causing boney spurs further narrowing that tiny space and pressing on the tendons.

FRONT SQUATS:  out of curiousity do you do the crossed arm kind or have you mastered the wrist torture real oly lift front squat grip?
I like cleans but only have some kinda bastard grip as I can't bend my wrist backwards enough (or haven't put in energy over time).

Incline bench I think is probably safe.  I ain't the expert on this, I just know some basics.  Check out Eric Cressey as one really good source of info. 

My brain keeps mixing the title of this thread up with the one right below you and seeing "Is intermittent CIA torture good for you?"

Benko wrote:

moda0306 wrote: My palms face more back than they do sideways when I let my hands rest at my sides.  Not straight back, but more back than sideways.  Is this a problem??

Probably not as such.  Problem is tendency is to do more pushing e.g. bench and less rowing i.e. horizontal pull and this can get worse over time and create problems.  Safest is to do more rowing i.e. horizontal pulling and also this occasionally:

Lay on flat surface e.g. floor and try to press the top back corner of your shoulders into the floor.  try sets 10-20 coupla times a week

and monitor the arms hanging at your side once a month or so.  if your plams start to face more and more back that can indicate real problems i.e. rotator cuff problems in long term. 

moda0306 wrote:
Are problems with overhead press mainly with power lifting, or do we see it even high-rep-low-weight lifting?

Thanks!

I think the issue is high reps over time  at least potentially causing boney spurs further narrowing that tiny space and pressing on the tendons.

FRONT SQUATS:  out of curiousity do you do the crossed arm kind or have you mastered the wrist torture real oly lift front squat grip?
I like cleans but only have some kinda bastard grip as I can't bend my wrist backwards enough (or haven't put in energy over time).

Incline bench I think is probably safe.  I ain't the expert on this, I just know some basics.  Check out Eric Cressey as one really good source of info.

Thanks for all this.

I'll do some of those shoulder exercises with my morning stretch routine.

With front squats, I use that goofy grip that hurts the wrist a bit.  However, since 1) it's easy to drop the bar if need-be, and 2) the weight is actually setting accross my shoulder/arm muscles, it's not a "grip" so much as "some pressure keeping the bar up on my shoulders rather than sliding forward."  If you saw it, you'd see that I cheat a bit, and that while I keep my arms high, my wrists/hands aren't actually doing much work, so I can fan my hand out in a more comfortable position.


Do you have any opinions on dead lift, cleans, bench, squat, or front squat?  These are my standards.

Desert wrote: I understand!   

I still have a faint hope of making my brisket and red wine diet the latest craze to sweep the nation. 

I really don't think that in the right mix of other foods during the day, that brisket and wine would be a bad addition to a meal plan once in a while. 

I really think that one drink a day, especially red wine, is a-ok, if not a net positive for your diet.  Beef is also a good meat.  However, if you're peppering the rest of your day with french fries, bratwurst, beer and cheese, you might be over-doing it a bit!

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 6516,d.aWw

Benko,

Here is Mark Rippetoe's response to overhead press being not good for us to do.  He's the author of "Starting Strength." 

No need to respond if you don't have time, but I figured I'd get your take on it if you were interested.

TennPaGa wrote:
Also, Benko's comments about overhead presses and arm orientation are intriguing to me because:

* I've never been able to lift much weight at all in an overhead press.  My shoulders wear out after about 8-10 reps, even at just 40 lbs and

* I notice now that my palms face completely to the rear when my arms are hanging down (high ape index? oops, wrong thread )

"my palms face completely to the rear when my arms are hanging down"

So you either already have rotator cuff problems or are a set-up for them.  At a minimum I would stop  doing horizontal pressing i.e. no bench pressing and no overhead presssing.  ALso no upright rows.  The internal rotation of your upper arm is what creates the problems.

NB: It is possible you don't have any problme now and will not develop any.  It is just much more likely given your biomechanics.  You could do chemical reactions in a reaction vessell with a crack and the crack could be there forever and never cause any problems but you probably wouldn't want to bet on it, especially if you're lifting regularly.

1. MOST EFFECTIVE/FASTEST way to fix this:  Go to http://www.activerelease.com/ search for a practitioner in your area who does active release technique and see them.  First time  I had this done was by MD anesthesiologist.  Since then I've seen chiropracter who knows many different techniques including ART .  It is likely this will be EXTREMELY PAINFUL, but for relatively short period of time e.g. 10 min or half hour.  for a session or three.  YOU WILL STILL NEED TO DO MAINTENANCE EXERCISES so you don't end up this way again down the line.  You may be a little spacey after the ART sessions, overkill but safest to ahve someone drive you.

2.  SLOWER BUT EFFECTIVE:  what I did last time I had this was to find old school physical therapist.  She did hands on therapy which was only moderately painful and it took her more sessions than the ART guy.  She was able to fix 90% of the problem and I had an excellent massage therapist who fixed the last 10% (no idea if most massage therapists could do this, she was good).

SO KEY IS HANDS ON THERAPY and will be painful and you'll need maintenance (unless your problems started from trauma).  You can have all the pain at once and get better much faster, or moderate pain and get better slower.

3.  OR you could just do the corrective stuff i.e. avoid exercises I suggested avoiding above for long time and do corrective exercises e.g. rows and the exercise I mentioned above, etc and over long time i.e. months things should  improve i.e. palm should start facing less towards back and more inward i.e. towards your body.  If you keep worsening the problem i.e. bench pressing, etc, this does not stand a chance. 

I have no way of knowing whether your body just has bad tendencies or actual problems albeit subtle ones you may not yet feel.  So your call as to which choice above you choose.

Hope that helps. 

moda0306 wrote: Do you have any opinions on dead lift, cleans, bench, squat, or front squat?  These are my standards.

Classic compound lifts, hard to argue with them. 

Having said that, everyone is different and there are all these articles saying e.g. you shoudl only front squat, back squats are too hard on the body for most people, etc.  As long as you are sensitive to your body and do what works and what feels right. 

Benko wrote:

moda0306 wrote: Do you have any opinions on dead lift, cleans, bench, squat, or front squat?  These are my standards.

Classic compound lifts, hard to argue with them. 

Having said that, everyone is different and there are all these articles saying e.g. you shoudl only front squat, back squats are too hard on the body for most people, etc.  As long as you are sensitive to your body and do what works and what feels right.

It's funny... when my friends ask me about this, and I tell them what lifts I do, they think I'm going to turn into a meat head... as opposed to doing hundreds of curls and butterflies and upper body stuff while not losing any weight... which seems to be what most guys are doing there.

I've dabbled in doing squats and cleans before, but never gotten into them like I've done now, and never done dead lift with any confidence/weight, but along with losing weight, and doing only a modest amount of "cosmetic" lifts like curls and butterflies and abs and such, I'm curious to see what my body is going to look like. I really am starting to feel like it will simply be more athletic, and definitely not the "meat head" juicer look by any means.  I really think these lifts are so fundamental. It kills me to see people bobbing around machines and doing more curls than anything else.

I look back to football days, and I chose to give up my FREE lifting room at school to pay $30 a month for a "better variety" of lifting machines at the gym.  We had a bench, incline bench, squat racks, and a couple spots to do cleans & deadlift... but I was convinced my preacher curl machine, guided squat rack, and tri/chest machines were a better option.  I am so pissed at myself for not knowing then what I know now.


I actually signed up for some sessions with a dude @ $60 per hour.  He gave me a free 1/2 hour deadlift session, and after correctly identifying a prior kneee injury and significantly improving my form and power transmission, I figured that if I was going to be serious about these lifts, I wanted to make sure I was doing them right... and the closest way of doing that for no cost would be having someone video tape me, and getting feedback on online forums, which is a very inefficient way to fix issues.

So in 4 sessions he has significantly improved my dead lift, squat, clean, and front-squat form while giving me some variations to work on.  For anyone who wants to take this stuff seriously, even if they're just going to plateau at certain weights and do them to maintain a certain level of modest strength, I'd highly recommen having (even if it costs you money) someone who knows what they're doing see you doing it in real time.  The form improvements are not only improving the efficiency and lowering the risks of my lifts, significantly, but the confidence I'm gaining in doing these somewhat scary lifts is extremely motivating to ACTUALLY GOING TO LIFT.  So the help I've gotten from him has given me a compounding effect of factors.

I'm going to spend about $300 on this guy when it is all said and done, and though on top of a $75 gym membership it hurt at first, I'm starting to think it's one of the best financial decisions I've ever made.

moda0306 wrote: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 6516,d.aWw

Benko,

Here is Mark Rippetoe's response to overhead press being not good for us to do.  He's the author of "Starting Strength." 

No need to respond if you don't have time, but I figured I'd get your take on it if you were interested.

Moda,

Ripptoe is great.  I have a ton of respect for him.  I'm not even qualified to breathe the same air as him. 
Thanks for the link.  I'll have to check it out later. 

UPright lifts are controversial.  All I know for 100% sure:

1.  The shapes/curves of bones around the shoulder varies from person to person.  These shapes can affect that small opening where the tendons pass through.  Even with variations I suspect the vast majority of 20 year olds and perhaps most 40 year olds can do overhead lifts without problems, at least in short term.

2.  During my job I interpret hundreds of chest x-rays.  A significant number of people have sharp pointed boney bumps at the AC (acromio-clavicular) joint.  Scissors cuts paper and sharp boney bumps over time can't do anything good to tendons passing over them.  People who have sharp boney bumps at their AC joint probably should not be doing overhead lifting.

3.  These sharp bone AC bumps can come from wear and tear arthritis OR a  highly skilled physical therapist I know (the one who helped me above) said that if you do regular overhead lifts sooner or later you  will develop one of these bumps.  Whether or how fast you develop one of these bumps, how narrow the opening isto begin with, etc vary from person to person. 

Benko wrote: Ripptoe is great.  I have a ton of respect for him.

Seconded

moda0306 wrote: 3) Regarding getting berries, I should do more.  I get my veggies mostly from the frozen bag section... I love the new Steamfresh veggie bags where you pop them in the microwave for 5 minutes and the bag is designed to steam the veggies.  So friggin' convenient.  I also grill veggies pretty regularly in the spring/summer fall.

I've wondered if those bags are BPA, xenoestrogen, etc. free when nuked.  Anyone know?

moda0306 wrote: 1) Lifting 3 times per week, mostly core lifts (squat, dead, bench (and of course some cheater curls!))... try to do some ridiculous high-rep "Spartan" work out from time to time to beat the $hit out of my body and get some cardio in.

This is rather frequent and you are overtraining if you're not a well-seasoned bodybuilder.  Intensity is far, far more important than frequency.  Slow controlled movements (5/5s cadence) and lifting to failure is the goal (or close to it if it can't be done safely at home).  Cardio is not necessary since theres no way to target "aerobic" metabolism and you'll get enough of an "aerobic" workout lifting weights if you're doing it intense enough and don't rest too long between exercises.  The "Spartan" is redundant and is just likely to cause you injury and damage as Benko noted.  Just forgot all the endless BroScience you've heard from gym buddies or read in Men's magazines or forums, its all unscientific tripe.

I'm guessing you're working out so frequently in a misguided attempt to burn more calories, but honestly exercise is not the best way to burn calories -- calorie restriction is.  The goal should be specifically on muscle hypertrophy since muscle is metabolically way more active compared to relatively inert fat.  "Aerobic" exercise if done too long is far too catabolic, destroys muscle and will make you hungrier.

stone wrote: I'm impressed that you guys all know and can quote all these numbers. In the UK they seem to just tell (me at any rate) how things are in the vaguest terms. Because I have had doxorubicin treatment in the past (for lymphoma) and a family history of heart disease I'm supposed to be at risk and so get annual tests. I'm just told everything is fine -no numbers at all.

That kind of patronizing attitude doesn't fly with us around here.  I suggest you get a copy of your medical records.  Call them or send in the fax or do whatever you need to do so you can see your own lab tests and see your own numbers.  What's "fine" is only relative to the physician's pathetic lack of nutritional/integrative training and odds are "fine" is orders of magnitude from "optimal".

stone wrote: I guess what I'm saying is that if say running is your thing, then it might be very different trying to run a distance in some stupidly quick time (for you) rather than just going out for a run now and again. You will end up doing  wacky training sets, core stability exercises or whatever to try and eek out a little more speed. Rather than being something you dutifully do it may become something you have to be disciplined to keep in perspective .

Well, the real problem is the vast majority of people confuse recreation activity with exercise and thus, recreation activity with optimal health.  Exercise should specifically be for hypertrophing muscles since lack of age-onset muscle mass is the #1 factor correlated to death.  Its not meant to be fun or even for stress-relief.

MangoMan wrote: Interesting. I thought you guys were anti-legume? That article says that guar gum is legume fiber.

Also: does it make you gassy?

As I mentioned in the Regime thread, partially hydrozeld guar gum is a chemically modified resistant starch type four.  It's not a natural-state product, which is why it is so resistant to digestion.  I've actually got a food intolerance to guar gum and I believe I did try partially hydrolyzed guar gum once from Benefiber and had a reaction.  If it is non-digestible, how is that even possible?  So I suspect there is microbiota issues at play.  The version Reub recommends is non-GMO and wildharvested unlike the junx that would have been in Benefiber.

All resistant starches will make you gassy until you adapt.

Mark Leavy wrote: Anytime you start paying attention, your life will get better.  The implementation details can result in a lot of fun debates, but in reality, the fact that you are examining these things for yourself and making measured changes is the best possible situation.  I think you have already won.

+1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFqc9-2QTOo

stone wrote: I guess you're right about the  pointless quantification and invitation to obsession. I'll take your advice and not ask

If you're scientist, surely you've got the brain power?  I don't understand this shirking of self-responsibility.  Is this a cultural thing?

Desert wrote: I still have a faint hope of making my brisket and red wine diet the latest craze to sweep the nation. 

It might work considering how carcinogenic smoked meat is, especially hickory.  You'll lose weight until it kills you!

Benko wrote: Your rotator cuff tendons travel in a very small space between the top of your armbone (humeral head) and the bottom of the outside of the collarbone. Many people who do overhead presses long enough will develop problems.  This depends on a number of factors, some the waythe bones in your shoulder are shaped i.e. the way you were born.  I don't know any way to predict who will and who will not have problems.  At a minimum if you let your arms hang at your sides , the palms should point in towards your body, and NOT point back i.e. towards behind you.  If they point, towards bak you, have a problem or potential problem.

I agree with Benko.  I didn't know this at the time, but you should never ever do shoulder presses or the like by holding the bar on the back of your neck or doing it behind your head.  There is just not enough room to flex safely.  Always do it in the front on your collarbone or to the sides.  I damaged my rotator cuff doing it that way along with the squat bar.  Getting prepared for the squat alone can put enough pressure on the rotator cuff that you don't need to add insult to injury.  You can do the squat in the front too but I've never tried -- seems risky.