Gold Coin Balance Fooled by fake gold Eagle

[dualstow]

Thank you both.

[craigr]

IMO. My preference is always for coins that are not in sealed packages. If someone is able to put out passable tungsten coins, they are able to forge packaging. I want to be able to handle the coins and take a good look at them without being in a blister pack.

In terms of tungsten fakes from China, this has been on the radar for years. Sad to see it is coming to this, but it's kind of par for the course for China in terms of how they view property rights and ethics.

[craigr]

This new type of fraud has me concerned. I was thinking of buying a few coins, but now I will wait until a secure method is developed to weed out the fakes.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post.
Audio Spectrum is 100% accurate.

If it even remotely looks like an Eagle, then if the audio spectrum has the three spikes in the right place, it IS an Eagle.  Realistically, you don't even need the iPhone app - your ear is pretty damn good.  Drop your known good eagle a couple of inches onto the counter, do the same with the "Device Under Test".  Impossible to fake.

If the app that I mentioned earlier is too expensive, then pick another one.  It's a very simple function and any "audio equalizer" type of app should work just fine.

You can test this with your pocket change.  Drop some quarters and dimes and pennies.  Every year that they changed the metal content produces a different audio signature.  It's clear and obvious.

I really like this idea. A coin that could pass size, weight, and audio checks would be extremely difficult to fake.

[craigr]

One question to the bullion dealers, etc. Couldn't various inspection techniques involving ultrasound, etc. detect tungsten vs. real gold?

Also for Bron, doesn't Perth Mint melt down all the gold you receive and strike new bullion? If so, this kind of threat for the Perth Mint would never make it into your circulation, correct?

[craigr]

Some gold dealer shows some fake Eagles that came into his store.  These are pretty good fakes.  Scary!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P1h6uXDACY

The fake coins have horrible detail. The edges were too sharp. Even when he dropped it briefly on the table you could hear that it was not real immediately. That is by far the best way to quickly tell a real from the fake as Marc points out.

I still think sticking to larger reputable dealers you will avoid a lot of this trouble. These dealers handle so many coins that it would be hard to get a fake by them initially, let alone into customer circulation. They would have their business wrecked if word got out that they were shipping fakes and it is likely they are going to be very careful now that these threats are out there.

[craigr]

BTW. I talked about tungsten gold coins being sold in China as souvenirs in the Gold FAQ several years ago, but a quick look at Alibaba shows that it's really ramped up since then:

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/gold-pl ... -coin.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2 ... 34665.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/C ... 5.html?s=p

[dualstow]

BTW. I talked about tungsten gold coins being sold in China as souvenirs in the Gold FAQ several years ago, but a quick look at Alibaba shows that it's really ramped up since then:

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/gold-pl ... -coin.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2 ... 34665.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/C ... 5.html?s=p

I bet the buyers of those coins are getting ripped off. Heard it's not even real tungsten these days.

;-)

[FarmerD]

I went through all the tungsten coins they sell and I see they have Eagles, Buffalos, Maples, Krugerands, and Kangeroos.  The Chinese obviously allow counterfeiting of foreign coins but not coins produced at their mint so you don't see any fake Pandas on Alibaba.  I also didn't see any Philharmonics - maybe this is because it's so difficult to fake a really thin coin like the Phil.

[bronsuchecki]

Also for Bron, doesn't Perth Mint melt down all the gold you receive and strike new bullion? If so, this kind of threat for the Perth Mint would never make it into your circulation, correct?

All metal used for our production comes from our refinery so we know it is pure. Also any coins or bars we buy we generally melt and we haven't seen any fakes, although to be fair I suppose fraudsters would not try and pass off fakes to us knowing we would melt them down. Having said that, if fakes were in wide circulation (due to being indishtinguishable from genuine coins), then we would see fakes from time to time given the amount of metal we buyback from the market.

So I think these fakes are obvious to bullion dealers and rarely circulate past the first person who got sucked into buying them.

Putting a plug in for our coins, I would note that trying to fake a 99.99% pure gold coin with polished surfaces, like the Perth Mint Kangaroo, is a lot harder than a 22ct mass production gold coin. I'd be surprised if you will get caught buying new coins from a reputable coin dealer.

[kapoios]

Usually I buy gold sovereigns and gold 20 franc coins.  I haven’t seen tungsten fakes but I have seen other fakes some even made from 18K – 22K gold. In most cases it is easy to spot a fake if the coin is in mint state. It’s getting more difficult if the coin is worn out and in some cases you just can’t be sure if a specific coin is genuine or fake so you avoid it.

[Libertarian666]

Usually I buy gold sovereigns and gold 20 franc coins.  I haven’t seen tungsten fakes but I have seen other fakes some even made from 18K – 22K gold. In most cases it is easy to spot a fake if the coin is in mint state. It’s getting more difficult if the coin is worn out and in some cases you just can’t be sure if a specific coin is genuine or fake so you avoid it.

If what you're buying is a bullion coin, it shouldn't matter if it's "real" or "fake", as long as it's made of the right alloy, which it will be if it passes the weight, size, and ring tests.

By the way, it was apparently pretty common to use the ring test many years ago when real money was still in circulation, at least if one can go by Heinlein's counterfeit coin scene in "Job: A Comedy of Justice".

[jco]

I think slabbed are not ideal as there are numerous fake slabs known. Besides it puts a barrier between you and measuring the density, dimensions and sound.

Some gold dealer shows some fake Eagles that came into his store.  These are pretty good fakes.  Scary!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P1h6uXDACY

Crank the resolution to 1080, I could easily tell that was a fake the first second I saw it... While it is a little disturbing that the density and dimensions are *allegedly* accurate, that fake looks terrible... Like all the others I've seen. Still, how far off can good ones be.

[yankees60]

Six years later anyone have concerns in this area?

Vinny

[dualstow]

...
So my answer is look for 99.9999% coins like maple leaves or philharmonics. I did buy a philharmonic once but because it’s too wide it wouldn’t fit into air tite tubes. Also I like that the maple leaves are Canadian money and living in the US I may flee to Canada in a crisis. I won’t be able to flee to Europe. If I lived in Europe I’d get philharmonics.

I’m sure you can get tubes that fit Philharmonics. In fact, mine came in a tube. Unless you specifically mean the Air-Tite brand. I’m not positive about that, but I’m going to look it up.

EDIT: https://www.onfireguy.com/capsule-tube- ... harmonics/

Also, if it came down to having to use gold in a crisis, I don’t think Canada would be prejudiced against Phils or Krugs or anything.

For any newbies: I think the best way to go is still to buy coins that are hardened with a little non-gold metal. Buy from a reputable dealer.