Sex for Money

[Kshartle]

Anyone have a good argument as to why this should be a crimminal offense?

[Kshartle]

No? Me neither.

I think it's a very honest relationship that solves problems for unattractive guys or guy who don't want a girlfriend and obviously helps women financially.

It's the illegality that causes the huge problems and gives us the distorted view imo.

[Jan Van]

Think I was reading some article not too long ago, the author was wondering why it's legal to act in a porno, but prostitution is illegal...

[Pointedstick]

Think I was reading some article not too long ago, the author was wondering why it's legal to act in a porno, but prostitution is illegal...

Because the porn industry has lobbyists and political power, while johns don't?

[barrett]

I have a problem with it when women are being coerced into doing that kind of work. It's not always a financial agreement between two consenting adults. That being said, I often think how out of balance many relationships would be without sex, so that in effect one party often seems to be paying without any exchange of money actually taking place.

[moda0306]

How many relationships out there are, when you really break it down to fundamentals, just a form of prostitution?

[dualstow]

According to Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan*, marriage was born out of a meat-for-sex arrangement that you can still see in chimp societies. I'd like to think that most of us homo sapiens have a little more going on than that.

To the topic, I think that prostitution, like drug use, is something that could be made safer through legalization and regulation. Maybe we'd have fewer sex slaves, fewer pimps and johns breaking women's arms, and less disease. Probably fewer Elliot Rodgers too.

*In their book, Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors.

[Pointedstick]

I have a problem with it when women are being coerced into doing that kind of work.

I think everybody does. Nobody wants to legalize coerced sex (i.e. rape). Kshartle's talking about purely consensual paid sex.

[moda0306]

According to Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan*, marriage was born out of a meat-for-sex arrangement that you can still see in chimp societies. I'd like to think that most of us homo sapiens have a little more going on than that.

To the topic, I think that prostitution, like drug use, is something that could be made safer through legalization and regulation. Maybe we'd have fewer sex slaves, fewer pimps and johns breaking women's arms, and less disease. Probably fewer Elliot Rodgers too.

*In their book, Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors.

Well there's definitely a social/companionship aspect of it that makes it feel a lot more legitimate.  And really it is for that fact.  However, we can achieve companionship in a lot of different ways, and relationships are a messy way of doing so sometimes.  If you take away the economic (including the "usefulness" aspect of the other person (cohabitation in general, but also cooking, fixing stuff, cleaning, picking up something, etc)) and the sexual aspects of a relationship, it becomes painfully obvious that many people would find it difficult to justify a committed relationship early in life just for the companionship, considering all the downsides and loss of autonomy.

I think a guy said it best once when he said, "If I want companionship, I'll get a golden retriever."

A little harsh, but kind of sets up the alternatives a bit more clearly.

[barrett]

K, are you exclusively talking about "purely consensual paid sex?"

[moda0306]

Is anything purely consensual? 

If I'm a Phillipino girl who just turned 18 and I sign an indentured servant contract with a Laotian pimp for lifetime prostitution for free room and board, and he somehow gets me into the U.S., to many that would be "consensual."

Though it will make K shutter, it would probably have to be a relatively heavily regulated industry.

[Kshartle]

K, are you exclusively talking about "purely consensual paid sex?"

Yes.

I'm not at all embarassed to admit that during my time in the Army I purchased the company of a few ladies (not at the same time!).

So I first-hand experience to work with. I think it was an excellent decision that served the needs of both parties. It was a well known establishment with a selection of ladies to choose from, not a streetwalker. They were extremely nice and proficient. All things considered it was much better than trying to start a relationship I didn't want anyway. Cheaper also.

I even gave them a tip. ahahahah 

[Kshartle]

Though it will make K shutter, it would probably have to be a relatively heavily regulated industry.

Why? What regulations and why would they be needed?

[Mountaineer]

K, are you exclusively talking about "purely consensual paid sex?"

Yes.

I'm not at all embarassed to admit that during my time in the Army I purchased the company of a few ladies (not at the same time!).

So I first-hand experience to work with. I think it was an excellent decision that served the needs of both parties. It was a well known establishment with a selection of ladies to choose from, not a streetwalker. They were extremely nice and proficient. All things considered it was much better than trying to start a relationship I didn't want anyway. Cheaper also.

I even gave them a tip. ahahahah 

Tip?  For the first hand?  HaHaHaHa

... Mountaineer

[moda0306]

K,

I really don't want to have that argument.  Perhaps the 18 year-old indentured servant girl from the Philippines is a good example of why regulation might be needed.

But I can see where this argument will go, and I know we just view human behavior, motivation, and value differently, so it's just going o be a mess.

I'm still waiting for you to school me on morality...


and explain to me how the 1950's were significantly more of a tax-haven than they are today.

I don't want to start a new debate that is going to end up exactly where all the other ones do... Anarcho-captialist philosophy vs my jack-booted statism.

[Kshartle]

K,

I really don't want to have that argument.  Perhaps the 18 year-old indentured servant girl from the Philippines is a good example of why regulation might be needed.

Well this is a discussion about the government's role in prostitution so your views on it aren't taboo.

I see why you think it might slide into something else because I'm always......curious about the inconsistency of principles. Sometimes coercion is fine, sometimes it's wrong....etc.

Suggesting what you think would be a better situation for the prostitution industry will not be met with a hard-core philosophical discussion of morality here, scouts honor.

[Kshartle]

To any single guys who aren't interested in forming a relationship right now.....I would highly recomend finding a safe, un-coerced prostitute (they are out there )

You might find a lot of value in it so don't let the stigma prevent you from trying it!


Also if you're unattractive and of limited means it gives you the possibility of mating with a beautiful women you would have no way of attracting.

[Pointedstick]

K,

I really don't want to have that argument.  Perhaps the 18 year-old indentured servant girl from the Philippines is a good example of why regulation might be needed.

Well this is a discussion about the government's role in prostitution so your views on it aren't taboo.

I see why you think it might slide into something else because I'm always......curious about the inconsistency of principles. Sometimes coercion is fine, sometimes it's wrong....etc.

Suggesting what you think would be a better situation for the prostitution industry will not be met with a hard-core philosophical discussion of morality here, scouts honor.

IMHO, probably anything would be better than a blanket ban. So even if it gets legalized but regulated, I would view that as a step in the right direction, at least, and it would take 99% of the violence out of the market, as always happens when illegal goods or services are legalized.

[Mountaineer]

Suggesting what you think would be a better situation for the prostitution industry will not be met with a hard-core philosophical discussion of morality here, scouts honor.

Take matters into your own hand and/or get married.  Then there is no need for a prostitution industry.  This discussion is a prime example of what happens when a culture has no commonly held ethics or morals.  I'm not at all saying people are perfect and won't "screw up".  But, if a culture accepts/endorses sex for money, what is the natural end of that idea?  Sex between man and woman for money, then man and man or woman and woman, then man doing himself walking down Broadway, then man and animal, then all the former on movies and daytime TV, etc. etc.  I cannot see any way to have a real discussion of the issue without bringing in morals.

... Mountaineer

[barrett]

Thought this Wiki link might be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country

Having traveled around quite a bit I am surprised to see that it's legal in Turkey but not so in Thailand.

Enforcement of laws against prostitution is notoriously spotty because cops are often (non-paying) customers. Some good data on that in SuperFreaconomics, I think.

[Jan Van]

Take matters into your own hand and/or get married. 

But some people haven't found the person they want to marry yet. And sitting on your left hand for a while gets tiresome after a while. And a man has his needs (and women too i'm sure) and Rosy and her five sisters don't always fill that need...
Of course, you could go to a bar and try to pick up somebody, or use Tinder or some such. But that might not work out, and is that really a good alternative?

[Kshartle]

Suggesting what you think would be a better situation for the prostitution industry will not be met with a hard-core philosophical discussion of morality here, scouts honor.

Take matters into your own hand and/or get married.  Then there is no need for a prostitution industry.  This discussion is a prime example of what happens when a culture has no commonly held ethics or morals.  I'm not at all saying people are perfect and won't "screw up".  But, if a culture accepts/endorses sex for money, what is the natural end of that idea?  Sex between man and woman for money, then man and man or woman and woman, then man doing himself walking down Broadway, then man and animal, then all the former on movies and daytime TV, etc. etc.  I cannot see any way to have a real discussion of the issue without bringing in morals.

... Mountaineer

M,

Do you really think if we don't have jackboots arresting men and women for exchanging money and sex we will end up with the donkey show on TV in place of saturday morning cartoons? 

OMG man.

How about the morality then that I own my money and she owns her body and you've got no business getting in the way of our arragement. Why do you think you get to point a gun at us and kidnapp us and put us in a cage because we both choose to make an exchange? That is the height of immorality and I'm certain it's not Christian.

Not trying to get heated man but I have to point out the contradiction of what you're saying. A voluntary trade of time and property is wrong but the initiation of violence against strangers is fine.

BTW - every "society" everywhere already accepts/endorses sex for money. They just hide it or call it marriage or dating.

[Kshartle]

you could go to a bar and try to pick up somebody, or use Tinder or some such. But that might not work out, and is that really a good alternative?

This is terrible. If she regrets it afterwards she can always say she was drunk and you raped her. Maybe instead you pretend to like her and say you'll call and when you don't she is crushed/hurt.

No such problems with a working girl.

[Mountaineer]

Suggesting what you think would be a better situation for the prostitution industry will not be met with a hard-core philosophical discussion of morality here, scouts honor.

Take matters into your own hand and/or get married.  Then there is no need for a prostitution industry.  This discussion is a prime example of what happens when a culture has no commonly held ethics or morals.  I'm not at all saying people are perfect and won't "screw up".  But, if a culture accepts/endorses sex for money, what is the natural end of that idea?  Sex between man and woman for money, then man and man or woman and woman, then man doing himself walking down Broadway, then man and animal, then all the former on movies and daytime TV, etc. etc.  I cannot see any way to have a real discussion of the issue without bringing in morals.

... Mountaineer

M,

Do you really think if we don't have jackboots arresting men and women for exchanging money and sex we will end up with the donkey show on TV in place of saturday morning cartoons? 

OMG man.

How about the morality then that I own my money and she owns her body and you've got no business getting in the way of our arragement. Why do you think you get to point a gun at us and kidnapp us and put us in a cage because we both choose to make an exchange? That is the height of immorality and I'm certain it's not Christian.

Not trying to get heated man but I have to point out the contradiction of what you're saying. A voluntary trade of time and property is wrong but the initiation of violence against strangers is fine.

BTW - every "society" everywhere already accepts/endorses sex for money. They just hide it or call it marriage or dating.

I do not believe anything I wrote said that "sex for money" was a criminal offense with need for law enforcement.  I merely am pointing out that a society without morals degenerates, and likely more than you think will happen.  And, I'm pointing out that human societies for thousands of years have been most successful when following a commonly held set of morals and for the topic at hand, that is a committed for life, one man - one woman, relationship. 

... Mountaineer

[Kshartle]

I do not believe anything I wrote said that "sex for money" was a criminal offense with need for law enforcement.  I merely am pointing out that a society without morals degenerates, and likely more than you think will happen.  And, I'm pointing out that human societies for thousands of years have been most successful when following a commonly held set of morals and for the topic at hand, that is a committed for life, one man - one woman, relationship. 

... Mountaineer

I'm sorry if I created a strawman argument. I was trying to read between the lines to stay on the main topic (rare for me  )

Sorry M-man