Iraq

[Pointedstick]

Oh I see what you mean. As in, "let's all just drop the violence!" is naive and unrealistic when barbarians aren't getting with the program.

[Benko]

PS--OK I understand now.

, Islam is more than just a religion--it is a total, all-encompassing way of life (religious, legal, etc.).

Yes that is why it is near impossible for us to comprehend.  To most of us religion is one thing and the rest of our life another.  But not Islam.
 
And I dont know of a way a civilized society can deal with the problem of Islam (strategic level).

[clacy]

You know you've made some serious foreign policy blunders when you're gameplanning with Iran.

[Ad Orientem]

Oh I see what you mean. As in, "let's all just drop the violence!" is naive and unrealistic when barbarians aren't getting with the program.

Exactly.

[Reub]

PS--OK I understand now.

, Islam is more than just a religion--it is a total, all-encompassing way of life (religious, legal, etc.).

Yes that is why it is near impossible for us to comprehend.  To most of us religion is one thing and the rest of our life another.  But not Islam.
 
And I dont know of a way a civilized society can deal with the problem of Islam (strategic level).

You have to deal with them the same way we dealt with the Nazi's. You have to obliterate them wherever you can. You sometimes have to make deals with bad people who also want to obliterate them. You also have to make certain that they are not infiltrating the homeland. Tighter borders, excluding immigration of certain groups of people. If they complain give them a big, loud SORRY!

[clacy]

Let's not pretend that the left has done any better on foreign policy since Obama's been in office.  Both sides deserve to be mocked. I can't think of one thing that either Bush or Obama has done really well, except maybe Bush recognizing that Rumsfeldt needed to go and the troop surge was needed to stablize Iraq.  Of course that was made to correct the mistake that he had previously made, so it's not worthy of any sort of recognition.

Some things have been better, some worse, IMO.

Leaving Iraq is good. Leaving Afghanistan is good. (Though I recognize that we still will have some troops left... better than the neocon policy).

Not getting involved in Syria was good.  Sure, it was a complete, bumbling accident that the U.S. didn't get involved, but I don't look a gift donkey in the mouth.

Getting involved in Libya was stupid, but if we are comparing the Red Team's fustercluck (Iraq+Afghanistan) to the Blue Team's (Libya), I think Obama wins.

More drone warfare is definitely bad.

Getting involved in the Ukraine is bad.

Antagonizing Russia is bad.

Also, none of this should be taken to mean that I approve of Obama's (or any other mainstream Dem's) foreign policy.

Plenty of blame to go around.  Not many great options unfortunately.

[Mountaineer]

I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

[Kshartle]

I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

How did they feel about athiests?

[MachineGhost]

You have to deal with them the same way we dealt with the Nazi's. You have to obliterate them wherever you can. You sometimes have to make deals with bad people who also want to obliterate them. You also have to make certain that they are not infiltrating the homeland. Tighter borders, excluding immigration of certain groups of people. If they complain give them a big, loud SORRY!

Sadly, I have to agree.  I simply see no alternative.  You cannot reason with whackjobs.  You cannot expect them to respect the same Western democratic ideals that you do, like radical tolerance.  It's the Caliphate or death!!!

So "we" can either ostracize them or "we" can obliterate them.  What's the alternative?  How well did ostracization work out for dealing with the problem of Hitler?  I think the Middle East needs to step up to the plate and deal with this neighborhood problem instead of "us".  Heck, they're all Sunnis anyway; they ought to be salivating at the prospect of wiping out their extremist enemy if it wasn't for Iran's hegemony.  Maybe OBAMA! can provide cover and protect the Sunni's to exterminate the ISIS while pissing off Iran.  I would expect nothing less than another clusterfvck like that.

29 years later, not much has changed:
http://www.lyricsondemand.com/s/sodstor ... yrics.html

[Mountaineer]

I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

How did they feel about athiests?

I do not believe the instructor said anything about atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.  Based on the Islamic mantra of "convert to Islam or die", I expect we know the answer.  If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

[Kshartle]

If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

[moda0306]

I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

So this guy happened to meet hundreds of Muslims who were open enough with him to share their "deep down" hatred (to the point of wishing death) of Christians and Jews?  Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.  No... hyperbole is the wrong world.  How about bold-faced lie.  I highly doubt he's being anywhere close to honest in his assertions.

And judging by Reub's comments (and others I know with similar opinions about wiping out "the enemy"), I wonder if a deep-down hatred between the religions is something unique to Islam.  No... I know it is not.  I know a lot of people with a pretty seething hatred for Muslims.  It's not very "deep down."


I have no love for Islam as a religion.  It's some backward-ass stuff in both scripture (like the Old Testament) and practice (unlike most Christian behavior).  But it's not as unique as all the Bible thumpers would have us believe.  I heard many "Christians" claim we should nuke the Middle East even years after 9/11.  Their only hesitation was the lost value of the oil.  I'd say that there are a solid chunk of conservatives that essentially have the same opinion of what should be done with the Muslims of the world that most of the worst Muslims have towards the U.S.

So, Mountaineer, no, it's really not that hard for us in the U.S. to understand that kind of mindset.  We hear our uber-conservative buddies spew it quite often.

But unlike Bill Maher, I don't think religion CAUSES wars... I think it's just another tool people use to give themselves moral superiority over others, and can justify what they want to do, anyway... conquer, enrich, enslave, etc.  Nazi's did it with eugenics.  "Communist" Russia did it with atheism.  Government is also another tool sociopaths like to use. So I'm really not trying to bash religion.  I'm trying to bash the "team-making" that people try to get us caught up in, especially when the call to action is one of violence or hatred.

All this said, we need to significantly reduce immigration from Muslim countries, IMO.  I totally agree with people on that.  However, I'm going to respect (or not respect) people as individuals based on their values towards other peaceful people (whether they look/pray like them, or not)... rather then get in this dick-measuring contest between two religions that have, for centuries, been used by sociopaths and meglomaniacs to get people to feel more comfortable with killing "others" and stifled the progress of science (as well as true moral philosophy), and pretend I'm any different than a radical Muslim if I call for nuking the Middle East.

[Mountaineer]

If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

I believe the issue goes back much, much further than bombs and being ruled over. 

... Mountaineer

[Ad Orientem]

If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

That theory holds water only as long as you ignore the history of Islam from its beginnings. In it's first couple of hundred years they converted a third of the then known world. And this was not done by handing out religious tracts on street corners. I strongly recommend this book for those who would like a primer in the history of Islam...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Prophet ... 1928653111

[Kshartle]

Moda I'm about in 97% agreement with you on all that.

$h1t

Now i have to rethink everything. 

j/k

[Mountaineer]

I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

So this guy happened to meet hundreds of Muslims who were open enough with him to share their "deep down" hatred (to the point of wishing death) of Christians and Jews?  Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.  No... hyperbole is the wrong world.  How about bold-faced lie.  I highly doubt he's being anywhere close to honest in his assertions.

And judging by Reub's comments (and others I know with similar opinions about wiping out "the enemy"), I wonder if a deep-down hatred between the religions is something unique to Islam.  No... I know it is not.  I know a lot of people with a pretty seething hatred for Muslims.  It's not very "deep down."


I have no love for Islam as a religion.  It's some backward-ass stuff in both scripture (like the Old Testament) and practice (unlike most Christian behavior).  But it's not as unique as all the Bible thumpers would have us believe.  I heard many "Christians" claim we should nuke the Middle East even years after 9/11.  Their only hesitation was the lost value of the oil.  I'd say that there are a solid chunk of conservatives that essentially have the same opinion of what should be done with the Muslims of the world that most of the worst Muslims have towards the U.S.

So, Mountaineer, no, it's really not that hard for us in the U.S. to understand that kind of mindset.  We hear our uber-conservative buddies spew it quite often.

But unlike Bill Maher, I don't think religion CAUSES wars... I think it's just another tool people use to give themselves moral superiority over others, and can justify what they want to do, anyway... conquer, enrich, enslave, etc.  Nazi's did it with eugenics.  "Communist" Russia did it with atheism.  Government is also another tool sociopaths like to use. So I'm really not trying to bash religion.  I'm trying to bash the "team-making" that people try to get us caught up in, especially when the call to action is one of violence or hatred.

All this said, we need to significantly reduce immigration from Muslim countries, IMO.  I totally agree with people on that.  However, I'm going to respect (or not respect) people as individuals based on their values towards other peaceful people (whether they look/pray like them, or not)... rather then get in this dick-measuring contest between two religions that have, for centuries, been used by sociopaths and meglomaniacs to get people to feel more comfortable with killing "others" and stifled the progress of science (as well as true moral philosophy), and pretend I'm any different than a radical Muslim if I call for nuking the Middle East.

I am certainly glad that I have not been influenced by the type of Christianity that you have apparently been exposed too.  All the things you espouse about Christianity are not in my flavor of it or are not in the teachings of the Bible as to how to behave; however cursory readings of the Bible by the verse pickers and choosers can certainly seem weird, at least to me.  Spare me from the false Christians.  Ugh.  I hope that one day you are able to have some descent conversations with "true" Christians.  And, for what it is worth, my church does not advocate mass murdering Muslims.  From a personal standpoint, I think the insideous attacks on Christianity from within are worse than the external visible attacks.  Satan is indeed alive and working on the weak.

... Mountaineer

[Kshartle]

If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

That theory holds water only as long as you ignore the history of Islam from its beginnings. In it's first couple of hundred years they converted a third of the then known world. And this was not done by handing out religious tracts on street corners. I strongly recommend this book for those who would like a primer in the history of Islam...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Prophet ... 1928653111

This is the same logic that says the Christians and Jews are murderous crusaders who want to slaughter Muslims because they have done it for 1,000 years or so.

[Mountaineer]

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

That theory holds water only as long as you ignore the history of Islam from its beginnings. In it's first couple of hundred years they converted a third of the then known world. And this was not done by handing out religious tracts on street corners. I strongly recommend this book for those who would like a primer in the history of Islam...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Prophet ... 1928653111

This is the same logic that says the Christians and Jews are murderous crusaders who want to slaughter Muslims because they have done it for 1,000 years or so.

I too would suggest reading the book that AO suggested.  And as always, beware of those who try to rewrite history in the name of political correctness. 

I would posit that almost all wars are religious in their root cause.  Muslim against Muslim is one of the larger ones.  Atheists (belief in self as god) against many other types of religion are another one of the larger slaughterers of their fellow man.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

As a followup on my comment about rewriting history in the name of political correctness, I have this suspicion that many who have been educated after the early 1960s have gotten even more skewed versions of history than those who came before.  Not that we can do much about it, just something to objectively consider.

... Mountaineer

[Ad Orientem]

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

That theory holds water only as long as you ignore the history of Islam from its beginnings. In it's first couple of hundred years they converted a third of the then known world. And this was not done by handing out religious tracts on street corners. I strongly recommend this book for those who would like a primer in the history of Islam...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Prophet ... 1928653111

This is the same logic that says the Christians and Jews are murderous crusaders who want to slaughter Muslims because they have done it for 1,000 years or so.

I disagree. While I think one needs to be careful about anecdotal evidence of the sort Mountaineer cited, historical evidence is a whole different ballgame. That's how one forms reasonable judgments. And I will absolutely hold up the history of Christianity in comparison with that of Islam any day of the week. The Crusades, Inquisition etc, were historical aberrations, not the norm. The first thousand years of Christianity saw the conversion of most of the known world by entirely peaceful means. And the Crusades, contrary to popular belief, were essentially defensive wars fought to check militant Islamic expansionism. The history of Islam, on the other hand is written in blood.

This doesn't mean I support the neo-con policy of imperialism and military intervention in conflicts that are none of our business. But I am not under any illusions about the nature of Islam as evidenced by its history. It is completely incompatible with the values of Western Civilization. And it is absolutely a threat that needs to be treated as such.

The problem is that there are too many people who think that murderous savages can be civilized if we just send then a gift subscription to Reason Magazine.

[Kshartle]

The problem is that there are too many people who think that murderous savages can be civilized if we just send then a gift subscription to Reason Magazine.

This is a strawman argument. The alternative to bombing and murdering and invading to eradicate people (including women and children, and destroying cities and installing strongmen and corrupt dictators over the people) you think are your "enemy", is not magazine subscriptions and melting down your guns to let them do with you as they will (even though that seems in keeping with Christ's message).

You always have the right to defend yourself and you can assign that right to others and agree to band with them for protection. You can do this.....and act with reason and justice and morality and be an example. You defend yourself to win the battle, and win the war in the long run as people progressively drop the religious nonsensical beliefs that people must convert or die in the name of Allah.

Or you cave into the boogey man propaganda tactics of your masters who want to you to beleive you need to "kill them over there". All that ends up happening is you kill a bunch of women and children, validate the beliefs of your so-called "enemies", strengthen them and bankrupt yourself and live in hypocrisy bladdy blah and go on forumns and discuss violent solutions and keep saying "OMG we need to do something but everything seems bad but by gosh O'reliy and Bush said it's us or them yadda yadda".


Sorry about the run-ons.

[MachineGhost]

So this guy happened to meet hundreds of Muslims who were open enough with him to share their "deep down" hatred (to the point of wishing death) of Christians and Jews?  Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.  No... hyperbole is the wrong world.  How about bold-faced lie.  I highly doubt he's being anywhere close to honest in his assertions.

Conflating extremist Muslims/Christians with mainstream Muslims/Christians is a very common tactic with religious believers, especially fundamentalists.  It acts as some kind of self-validity and self-justification.  Whoosh goes the magician's hands and a dove appears where there was none before!

Also, don't overlook the Palestinian issue.  That upsets a lot of Muslims, extremist or not.

[Kshartle]

The problem is that there are too many people who think that murderous savages can be civilized if we just send then a gift subscription to Reason Magazine.

This is a strawman argument.

It might be more accurate to call this the fallacy of the excluded middle.

Saying the alternative to invading is allowing yourself to be overrun ignores the possibility of preparing to defend yourself. A lot of you are making this false argument and convincing yourself it's correct.

Sometimes I mix up my arumentative fallacies.

[Kshartle]

So this guy happened to meet hundreds of Muslims who were open enough with him to share their "deep down" hatred (to the point of wishing death) of Christians and Jews?  Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.  No... hyperbole is the wrong world.  How about bold-faced lie.  I highly doubt he's being anywhere close to honest in his assertions.

Conflating extremist muslims with mainstream muslims is a very common tactic with religious believers, especially fundamentalists.  It acts as some kind of self-validity and self-justification.  Whoosh goes the magacian's hands and a dove appears where there was none before!

All Christians are cannibals that drink blood and eat flesh and handle snakes.

All jews are greedy theives out to rob gentiles and undermine their societies.

[MachineGhost]

Saying the alternative to invading is allowing yourself to be overrun ignores the possibility of preparing to defend yourself. A lot of you are making this false argument and convincing yourself it's correct.

It's not a fallacy when the bureaucratic and dysfunctional US government cannot even protect its own borders.  We have no capability of defending ourself from the whackjobs.  It's all security theatre and another incident will cause joy in hearts of our bureaucrat masters as their power is expanded and they receive ever higher levels of funding.  Sad, but true.  These jokers only do the job as far as necessary as to give appearances of doing the job.