Climate change

[doodle]

As an aside, I'm currently finally reading How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World for the first time. Great book -- that Harry Browne guy seems to have his act together.

For those frustrated about being able to change minds on climate change (on any side of the issue), I highly recommend the chapters on the Utopia trap and the Burning Issue trap.

Global Warming however is not a philosophy, it is a scientific question. It is not the same as civil rights issues or communism.

The planet is warming (this is a question of fact....it is not debatable. We have measurable warming trend over the last century and a half.)

There are certain things that can cause the planet to change temperature (solar activity, tilt in earths axis, reflectivity of surface, composition of atmosphere) Scientists have studied all of those variables and they have overwhelming concluded that the composition of our atmosphere is changing whereas the other variables are not. We know 100% that the composition of our atmosphere is directly linked to our planets temperature holding other variables equal. (This is also an empirical question of fact....not debatable and we can measure the C02 concentration levels in  our atmosphere.)

We know that humans emit approximately 30 gigatons of C02 into the atmosphere every year. This is about 100 times more than what volcanoes emit annually. In other words it would take 100 years of volcanic eruptions to equal what humans emit in one year. (This is also measurable empirical fact) This C02 must go somewhere. A lot of it has been absorbed by the oceans increasing their acidification (which has been measured) but the majority stays in the atmosphere where it creates a greenhouse effect (which again is a scientifically provable process)

Now, that all of this is provable...the only question remains as to how serious the effects will be.

[Pointedstick]

Why do you focus so much on the science? I don't really think it's that relevant. People are going to make their decisions independent of the science. They always have and they always will. If you're imagining that better explaining the science will get people to have an "aha! What was I thinking!?" moment, I believe that you may be disappointed.

If you want to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, find another way to get people on board. Telling them that there's a scientific consensus that it's warming the planet doesn't seem to be working.

[Mountaineer]

Why do you focus so much on the science? I don't really think it's that relevant. People are going to make their decisions independent of the science. They always have and they always will. If you're imagining that better explaining the science will get people to have an "aha! What was I thinking!?" moment, I believe that you may be disappointed.

If you want to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, find another way to get people on board. Telling them that there's a scientific consensus that it's warming the planet doesn't seem to be working.

Yes indeed.  As I eluded to earlier, carrots work much better than sticks if one wishes lasting results.  Dear leader and his minions do not seem to understand that principle.  Incentitives are usually viewed as positive (by both science and non-science focused people); taxes and mandates are usually viewed as negatives, regardless of the willingness to cough up dollars for someone else to manage.  All in my opinion, of course. 

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

Why do you focus so much on the science? I don't really think it's that relevant. People are going to make their decisions independent of the science. They always have and they always will. If you're imagining that better explaining the science will get people to have an "aha! What was I thinking!?" moment, I believe that you may be disappointed.

If you want to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, find another way to get people on board. Telling them that there's a scientific consensus that it's warming the planet doesn't seem to be working.

I'm not interested at the moment in the political side of the issue. I'm more just dumbfounded by the flatearther type approach that most people address the issue with.

I can understand skepticism towards the issue, but outright denial in the face of massive evidence for its existence is too ridiculous for me.

I'd like to just get to step one which is acknowledgement that there is a very high likelyhood based on enormous quantities of studies that human activity is having a warming effect on our planet.

[Kshartle]

If you want to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, find another way to get people on board. Telling them that there's a scientific consensus that it's warming the planet doesn't seem to be working.

It's called build electric vechicles that are cheaper and more efficient so fewer emissions are emitted to generate the energy.

It's called automate tasks and use smarter software to replace the need for humans to do crap labor, reducing the amount of travel time.

It's called the virtual office where all "knowledge" workers work from home instead of having to drive to work.

The free market is always working to solve this stuff, no need for jackboots. They won't help us have better lives.

[Kshartle]

I'd like to just get to step one which is acknowledgement that there is a very high likelyhood based on enormous quantities of studies that human activity is having a warming effect on our planet.

There is no question humans change the environment. We figure out ways to bend nature to make it nicer for us to live. Actually living in unmolested nature is really awful. Nature is really good at killing humans. Please polute my water with chemicals that might give me cancer in 60 years vs. malaria that will kill me in 60 days. While you're at it keep working on better chemicals.

Nature is pretty to look at, but 99% of people would prefer to not live in it. Many don't even like going in it at all.

Who cares if the planet is getting warmer? I moved from MI to FL to get warmer. If I ever find I want to live where it's cooler I'll move a little farther north. Or I'll just go inside my air conditioned habitat with my artificial arctic box that has the food in it.

Why is it bad if the planet gets warmer? Would you be as upset if it was 1 degree cooler or whatever?

[Pointedstick]

I actually agree with Kshartle on this one. We're constantly changing the planet. We dam up rivers, remove forests, plant forests, farm the land, reclaim land that's below sea level, put roads on the land, put houses on the land, put cities on the land, extract minerals from the land... you name it, we do it. All of these things have consequences. Many are good for us. Some are bad for us. Many are intended. Some are unintended. I think the thing that sort of amuses me about people who are really concerned about global warming is that it seems like just another example of what's omnipresent in the constellation of human manipulation of the planet we live on: the fact that as we alter it to suit our own wants and needs, we create problems that require more alteration.

I mean, there used to be a mighty river flowing through the city I'm living in. Now it's a little stream, because we took a huge amount of water out of it for sustaining human life. This has had ecological consequences for trees and animals, and led the government of my city to pump water out of an aquifer to sustain the growth. In 20 years, there may no longer be a river, and perhaps the aquifer will be gone too. Then we'll all have to figure out something else. And that's just the way it'll always be.

[Kshartle]

I actually agree with Kshartle on this one.

Hopefully no one holds that against you!

[doodle]

Who cares if the planet is getting warmer? I moved from MI to FL to get warmer. If I ever find I want to live where it's cooler I'll move a little farther north. Or I'll just go inside my air conditioned habitat with my artificial arctic box that has the food in it.

Why is it bad if the planet gets warmer? Would you be as upset if it was 1 degree cooler or whatever?

Ok....so that is the second question. Once we acknowledge that we are in fact changing the planets temperature, then it becomes a "so what?" question.

Current estimates have temperature increases over the next 100 years anywhere from 1.5 to 4 degrees hotter depending on how things progress and the strength of the positive feedback loop.

I think that I a good question....we don't really know what the effects would be which is probably why we should be cautious about how we choose to proceed in rapidly changing the planets climate. I don't know about you but when I walk into a dark tunnel I proceed cautiously....I don't barrel in head first and decide to deal with the consequences later.

[Pointedstick]

I think that I a good question....we don't really know what the effects would be which is probably why we should be cautious about how we choose to proceed in rapidly changing the planets climate. I don't know about you but when I walk into a dark tunnel I proceed cautiously....I don't barrel in head first and decide to deal with the consequences later.

You may not, but society does. Always has, always will.

[doodle]

I think that I a good question....we don't really know what the effects would be which is probably why we should be cautious about how we choose to proceed in rapidly changing the planets climate. I don't know about you but when I walk into a dark tunnel I proceed cautiously....I don't barrel in head first and decide to deal with the consequences later.

You may not, but society does. Always has, always will.

Not necessarily....Many societies understood the need to take a cautious long term approach with nature.

Many Indian tribes for example were careful and selective about the Buffalo that they hunted or the way that their farming impacted the land.....

Other cultures come in and hunt the Buffalo to extinction within a couple decades and turn the Midwest into a giant dustbowl.

Humans are capable of both behaviors.....

[Mountaineer]

I don't know about you but when I walk into a dark tunnel I proceed cautiously....I don't barrel in head first and decide to deal with the consequences later.

So, how is that strategy going to work out for you in the Christianity ballgame?  Seems you have thrown caution to the wind (had to use a climate related word there so you would not howl this is not the religion thread). 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Other cultures come in and hunt the Buffalo to extinction within a couple decades and turn the Midwest into a giant dustbowl.

Are you saying there is a direct correlation between buffalo deaths and dustbowl formation?  A butterfly effect?

... Mountaineer

[Pointedstick]

Not necessarily....Many societies understood the need to take a cautious long term approach with nature.

Many Indian tribes for example were careful and selective about the Buffalo that they hunted or the way that their farming impacted the land.....

Other cultures come in and hunt the Buffalo to extinction within a couple decades and turn the Midwest into a giant dustbowl.

Humans are capable of both behaviors.....

Notice which society won...

[doodle]

Not necessarily....Many societies understood the need to take a cautious long term approach with nature.

Many Indian tribes for example were careful and selective about the Buffalo that they hunted or the way that their farming impacted the land.....

Other cultures come in and hunt the Buffalo to extinction within a couple decades and turn the Midwest into a giant dustbowl.

Humans are capable of both behaviors.....

Notice which society won...

The battle or the war?

[Mountaineer]

Not necessarily....Many societies understood the need to take a cautious long term approach with nature.

Many Indian tribes for example were careful and selective about the Buffalo that they hunted or the way that their farming impacted the land.....

Other cultures come in and hunt the Buffalo to extinction within a couple decades and turn the Midwest into a giant dustbowl.

Humans are capable of both behaviors.....

Notice which society won...

The battle or the war?

Hey guys, society does not exist! 

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

I don't know about you but when I walk into a dark tunnel I proceed cautiously....I don't barrel in head first and decide to deal with the consequences later.

So, how is that strategy going to work out for you in the Christianity ballgame?  Seems you have thrown caution to the wind (had to use a climate related word there so you would not howl this is not the religion thread). 

... Mountaineer

I prefer to stay open minded and uncommitted regarding questions which cannot be tested. Im not saying a God does or does not exist. I just don't "know" and therefore prefer to be honest about the whole issue.

[Mountaineer]

I don't know about you but when I walk into a dark tunnel I proceed cautiously....I don't barrel in head first and decide to deal with the consequences later.

So, how is that strategy going to work out for you in the Christianity ballgame?  Seems you have thrown caution to the wind (had to use a climate related word there so you would not howl this is not the religion thread). 

... Mountaineer

I prefer to stay open minded and uncommitted regarding questions which cannot be tested. Im not saying a God does or does not exist. I just don't "know" and therefore prefer to be honest about the whole issue.

Fair enough.  But now I don't understand why you are so gung ho re. "climate change" (man caused with disaterous consequences sufficient to heat you up).  The sources I've read (probably on a small fraction of what is available) do not seem to indicate we really "know" what is going on.

... Mountineer

[Pointedstick]

Notice which society won...

The battle or the war?
[/quote]

If you are implying that western civilization will lose the war due to environmental catastrophe, it will be of no use to those indians who we exterminated long ago, and whose remnants are now members of western civilization.

My point is that it's unrealistic to expect a high-consumption-style society to not use as many resources as it can because that makes would make it vulnerable to other high-consumption societies. Look around the world... how many low-consumption societies do you see that don't exist at the pleasure of the high-consumption society that conquered them or keeps them around for amusement or cultural pride?

[doodle]

So, how is that strategy going to work out for you in the Christianity ballgame?  Seems you have thrown caution to the wind (had to use a climate related word there so you would not howl this is not the religion thread). 

... Mountaineer

I prefer to stay open minded and uncommitted regarding questions which cannot be tested. Im not saying a God does or does not exist. I just don't "know" and therefore prefer to be honest about the whole issue.

Fair enough.  But now I don't understand why you are so gung ho re. "climate change" (man caused with disaterous consequences sufficient to heat you up).  The sources I've read (probably on a small fraction of what is available) do not seem to indicate we really "know" what is going on.

... Mountineer

You must be reading the wrong sources. The science is pretty iron clad and conclusive.....

[doodle]

Notice which society won...

The battle or the war?

If you are implying that western civilization will lose the war due to environmental catastrophe, it will be of no use to those indians who we exterminated long ago, and whose remnants are now members of western civilization.

My point is that it's unrealistic to expect a high-consumption-style society to not use as many resources as it can because that makes would make it vulnerable to other high-consumption societies. Look around the world... how many low-consumption societies do you see that don't exist at the pleasure of the high-consumption society that conquered them or keeps them around for amusement or cultural pride?
[/quote]

Yes, but you are talking about competition between societies.....Im talking about global society vs. the forces of nature. Societies have always lost that battle.

[Pointedstick]

Yes, but you are talking about competition between societies.....Im talking about global society vs. the forces of nature. Societies have always lost that battle.

I don't think so. If, say, global temperatures rise 4 degrees, it seems to me like the far northern countries will gain handily. That of course, will encourage them to grow and conquer other weaker ones, perhaps countries rendered weaker by the rising temperatures. Unless you believe that literally all of humanity will be wiped out by rising temperatures, it seems to me that societal competition and changing balances of power are just about the only thing you can really predict with any reasonable amount of certainty.

I for one welcome our new Canadian overlords.

[img width=400]http://orthodoxmilitary.files.wordpress ... afghan.jpg[/img]

[doodle]

Yes, but you are talking about competition between societies.....Im talking about global society vs. the forces of nature. Societies have always lost that battle.

I don't think so. If, say, global temperatures rise 4 degrees, it seems to me like the far northern countries will gain handily. That of course, will encourage them to grow and conquer other weaker ones, perhaps countries rendered weaker by the rising temperatures. Unless you believe that literally all of humanity will be wiped out by rising temperatures, it seems to me that societal competition and changing balances of power are just about the only thing you can really predict with any reasonable amount of certainty.

I for one welcome our new Canadian overlords.

[img width=400]http://orthodoxmilitary.files.wordpress ... afghan.jpg[/img]

Yes, that is one way to look at the issue. What will the effects be though on the oceans and fisheries? How about farming and agriculture? Bees? Ocean currents and storms, diseases and viruses? There are many unknowns. This could be a big turn for the worse.....If man made climate change is a juncture in the road, the easier route could really lead humans to a pestilent place.

[doodle]

Its a good question though.....so what? So what if anything happens? So what if Ebola runs rampant through the United States killing off millions of people? The strong and resistant will survive and life will go on.

[Mountaineer]

I prefer to stay open minded and uncommitted regarding questions which cannot be tested. Im not saying a God does or does not exist. I just don't "know" and therefore prefer to be honest about the whole issue.

Fair enough.  But now I don't understand why you are so gung ho re. "climate change" (man caused with disaterous consequences sufficient to heat you up).  The sources I've read (probably on a small fraction of what is available) do not seem to indicate we really "know" what is going on.

... Mountineer

You must be reading the wrong sources. The science is pretty iron clad and conclusive.....

I do not want to appear combattive with this comment, but .... I do agree the propaganda appears conclusive on what "is", I just have a lot of doubts about the science and what we humans should do to make some sort of reasonable effort to defeat the forces of nature (the "to be" state), if indeed it is necessary to do so, ... since that has never been done before by society according to you.

... Mountaineer