Putin Invades Ukraine. Should We Care?

[Reub]

The mayor Of Ukraine's 2nd largest city was shot in the back today. Does anyone doubt that Vlad ordered it?

http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/ap ... e410a60d30

Also, this:

Rebels parade international hostages:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 22998.html

[dualstow]

The mayor Of Ukraine's 2nd largest city was shot in the back today. Does anyone doubt that Vlad ordered it?

He doesn't need to, any more than Beijing needs to tell Chinese citizens to smash Japanese car dealerships.
Give the ultranationalists a little credit. 

[Reub]

Jim Rickards expects the Russians to start hacking our financial institutions in response to our sanctions. It might not be a bad time to change/upgrade/strengthen our individual passwords. It could never hurt.

[Reub]

The mayor Of Ukraine's 2nd largest city was shot in the back today. Does anyone doubt that Vlad ordered it?

He doesn't need to, any more than Beijing needs to tell Chinese citizens to smash Japanese car dealerships.
Give the ultranationalists a little credit. 

"The United States has proof that the Russian government in Moscow is running a network of spies inside eastern Ukraine because the U.S. government has recordings of their conversations, Secretary of State John Kerry said in a closed-door meeting Friday."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... spies.html

[Pointedstick]

"The United States has proof that the Russian government in Moscow is running a network of spies inside eastern Ukraine because the U.S. government has recordings of their conversations, Secretary of State John Kerry said in a closed-door meeting Friday."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... spies.html

Aren't we doing the same? I would be highly surprised if there were any powerful nations that didn't do this kind of thing.

[ns3]

"The United States has proof that the Russian government in Moscow is running a network of spies inside eastern Ukraine because the U.S. government has recordings of their conversations, Secretary of State John Kerry said in a closed-door meeting Friday."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... spies.html

Aren't we doing the same? I would be highly surprised if there were any powerful nations that didn't do this kind of thing.

Is there anybody here who honestly believes that we DON'T have a network of spies in eastern Ukraine - and that they have been heavily involved in the recent events? I suspect the Russians know more about this than we do.

[RuralEngineer]

False identification of Russian special forces?  Didn't Kerry recently say that we had intercepted communications between Russia and the "Pro-Russian rebels" in which the Russians were giving them their marching orders?

I don't know if it's relevant, but the author is about as far left as it's possible to be without coming full circle back to conservative fundamentalism.  Wikipedia him for examples of his writings.  It's saying something when they consider you a leftist radical in the U.K.

[dualstow]

  Wikipedia him for examples of his writings. 

Ha, I've never seen that before, but as they say,
In English, any noun can be verbed.

[MachineGhost]

I don't disagree that this is about resources.  I guess I'm just confused as to whether you're suggesting this is reason enough to turn a blind eye to the Russian annexation of neighboring countries on laughable pretenses that Putin himself engineered.

Why is it any different than Obama/Bush/Clinton/Reagan "liberating" some country?  The fact is we can't do anything about it in practical terms any more than Russia or China can do anything about what we invade.  They are huge economies highly interconnected with ours, not a fissured ceramic theocracy like Iran.

It'll blow over and we'll forget about it.  Of course, unless the Ukraine is stupid enough to instigate civil war.

I think everyone needs reminding this is all the Ukraine's fault.  They had billions in foreign debts they could no longer pay off and the EU offered them a bailout, until Russia topped it.  Debt implosions are how wars start as frustrated, unemployed people start focusing on any kind of differences...  eventually it leads to prejudice, thievery and violence.  Blaming Putin is laughable.  Even though I personally think the guy reeks of being a cold Reptilian extraterrestrial.

[align=center][/align]

[dualstow]

Analysis you won't see in the U.S.:

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war

That's an interesting take on the other side of the tug-of-war between Russia and the West.
I linked a Foreign Affairs article a couple pages back. Here's another one, but the new print version just came out so I believe a login/subscription is required.
Russia's Latest Land Grab
How Putin Won Crimea and Lost Ukraine | By Jeffrey Mankoff

Anyway, the idea is that, just as Stalin intentionally drew borders that did not match up with traditional ethnic boundaries, post-Soviet Russia plays a strange game of encouraging rebellions in breakaway states under the guise of coming to the rescue of persecuted minorities, Russian and otherwise. South Ossetia, Transnistia, Abkhazia, and other places whose names you thought were invented by JK Rowling.

The author points out that Russian minorities in Central Asia suffer more than those closer to Moscow, but their plight is largely ignored. The Central Asian regions see less Western influence and therefore the Kremlin doesn't find them as strategically significant.

Most ethnic minorities -- not just the Russian ones -- enjoyed some kind of protection from the Soviet empire. With independence in the 90s came some persecution, discrimination, and the fear of it, from pockets of Uzbeks in Kyrgyzstan, Armenians in Azerbaijan, etc. Thus, it is understandable that they didn't necessarily want the state in which they lived to become fully independent from Russia.

Most of this game didn't require a lot of military action; it was mostly coal stoking. With the Crimean annexation though, Mankoff argues, Russia's tactics are backfiring. Bad international rep, screwed-up relationship with Ukraine, and the countries with oil and gas want to sell to the West now instead of depending on Russia.  Oops.

[dualstow]

I think you posted that before, didn't you?
(EDIT: Whatever I was posting about, it looks like it's been removed).

[dualstow]

Putin's Hollowed-Out Homeland
Russia's human capital is in steep decline. A 15-year-old boy there won't even live as long as one in Afghanistan.
By NICHOLAS EBERSTADT
May 7, 2014
Notwithstanding Russia's nuclear arsenal and its vast territories, the distinguishing feature of the country today is its striking economic underdevelopment and weakness. For all Russia's oil and gas, the country's international sales of goods and services last year only barely edged out Belgium's—and were positively dwarfed by the Netherlands'. Remember, there has never been an "energy superpower"—anywhere, ever. In the modern era, the ultimate source of national wealth and power is not natural resources: It is human resources. And unfortunately for Russia, its human-resource situation is almost unrelievedly dismal—with worse likely in the years to come.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2003321680

and a respoonse:

Putin's Hollowed-Out Russia Is Eating the West's Lunch
While Russia expands its borders, it is indirectly increasing its Russian population and labor force, mitigating temporarily the demographic and labor force deficits.
LETTERS
What these examples reveal is that the future of cities and countries can't be reduced to statistics about birthrates and diplomas. Rather, their success is most often driven by a small number of enterprising individuals who are allowed to prosper, mostly free of government intervention. Economic freedom has and always will trump rates of birth and test scores despite the editorial musings of well-credentialed pundits.

John Tamny

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2916641176

[Reub]

I think you posted that before, didn't you?
(EDIT: Whatever I was posting about, it looks like it's been removed).

If you were posting about something that was there before and now isn't please feel free to remove the post about the non-existent post in question.

[MachineGhost]

So what’s the deal with the latest flash point, Crimea?  It has 2 million people and a sizeable portion of them are farmers. The farmers used to get water from Ukraine’s Dnieper River. The water was diverted along a canal across a strip of land that links Crimea to the mainland.

Now, Ukraine has reduced the flow of water across its new de facto border with Russian-controlled Crimea.

Russia will do what it can for Crimea. But Russia’s economy is already teetering on the brink of recession amid Western sanctions. The easiest solution for Russian president Vladimir Putin might be to just take the water by extending the Russian border to the Dneiper River.

Do you think that can’t happen? Hey, there was a treaty guaranteeing Ukraine that Russia would keep its bear paws off Crimea. We see how well that worked.

And remember, the annexation of Crimea gave Russia access to offshore natural gas fields thought to hold the equivalent of 2.3 trillion cubic meters of gas. That’s enough to meet European gas demand for around five years. So, from Putin’s point of view, grabbing things has worked out in the past.

[dualstow]

I think you posted that before, didn't you?
(EDIT: Whatever I was posting about, it looks like it's been removed).

If you were posting about something that was there before and now isn't please feel free to remove the post about the non-existent post in question.

I would, but now you've posted about it. 

By the way, I had this save conversation with Putin once, on another forum.