Putin Invades Ukraine. Should We Care?

[Reub]

It appears as if our newly enlightened President might have finally done something right (along the lines of a broken watch being right twice a day?):

"US troops arrive in Poland for exercises across Eastern Europe amid Ukraine crisis"

"WASHINGTON –  U.S. Army paratroopers are arriving in Poland on Wednesday as part of a wave of U.S. troops heading to shore up America's Eastern European allies in the face of Russian meddling in Ukraine.

Pentagon press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby said an initial contingent of about 600 troops will head to four countries across Eastern Europe for military exercises over the next month.

First, about 150 soldiers from the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team based in Vicenza, Italy, are arriving in Poland.

Additional Army companies will head to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and are expected to arrive by Monday for similar land-based exercises in those countries."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04 ... d-ukraine/

Now if we would only establish permanent bases there (with the wishes of the local governments, of course), reinstitute our missile defense pacts with Poland and the Czech Republic, call Iran's treaty with us invalid, and ramp up our production of oil and natural gas, we could have Vlad crying in his Vodka! 

[dualstow]

Putin and Rumsfeld are both 5'7". I'm just throwin' it out there.....

[clacy]

It appears as if our newly enlightened President might have finally done something right (along the lines of a broken watch being right twice a day?):

"US troops arrive in Poland for exercises across Eastern Europe amid Ukraine crisis"

"WASHINGTON –  U.S. Army paratroopers are arriving in Poland on Wednesday as part of a wave of U.S. troops heading to shore up America's Eastern European allies in the face of Russian meddling in Ukraine.

Pentagon press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby said an initial contingent of about 600 troops will head to four countries across Eastern Europe for military exercises over the next month.

First, about 150 soldiers from the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team based in Vicenza, Italy, are arriving in Poland.

Additional Army companies will head to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and are expected to arrive by Monday for similar land-based exercises in those countries."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04 ... d-ukraine/

Now if we would only establish permanent bases there (with the wishes of the local governments, of course), reinstitute our missile defense pacts with Poland and the Czech Republic, call Iran's treaty with us invalid, and ramp up our production of oil and natural gas, we could have Vlad crying in his Vodka!

Saber rattling of this sort by Obama is meaningless because everyone on the planet knows he won't actually take any action besides some symbolic gestures.

Putin can easily grab 50% of the Soviet Block back in the next 1.5 years without breaking a sweat.

It is what it is.  No one wants a war.  The US is as soft as the EU now, so there will be little real opposition to actual nation/state's that want to move aggressively.  We have our "war on terror" to deal with.  Lobbing missiles from drones into huts in the desert is as badass as we got now.

[ns3]

It appears as if our newly enlightened President might have finally done something right (along the lines of a broken watch being right twice a day?):

"US troops arrive in Poland for exercises across Eastern Europe amid Ukraine crisis"

"WASHINGTON –  U.S. Army paratroopers are arriving in Poland on Wednesday as part of a wave of U.S. troops heading to shore up America's Eastern European allies in the face of Russian meddling in Ukraine.

Pentagon press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby said an initial contingent of about 600 troops will head to four countries across Eastern Europe for military exercises over the next month.

First, about 150 soldiers from the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team based in Vicenza, Italy, are arriving in Poland.

Additional Army companies will head to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and are expected to arrive by Monday for similar land-based exercises in those countries."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04 ... d-ukraine/

Now if we would only establish permanent bases there (with the wishes of the local governments, of course), reinstitute our missile defense pacts with Poland and the Czech Republic, call Iran's treaty with us invalid, and ramp up our production of oil and natural gas, we could have Vlad crying in his Vodka!

Yeah, I'll bet those 600 troops will have him shaking in his boots all right. And after he finishes off his vodka he'll figure out how to up the ante.

Seems to me the last time we played this game we ended up with nuclear missiles aimed at us from Cuba.

[Reub]

Putin and Rumsfeld are both 5'7". I'm just throwin' it out there.....

Now that's funny! And true.

Seriously, making Putin pay a heavy price for his indiscretions (his ex-wife aside) is the best way to deter him from enslaving more nations.

[RuralEngineer]

It appears as if our newly enlightened President might have finally done something right (along the lines of a broken watch being right twice a day?):

"US troops arrive in Poland for exercises across Eastern Europe amid Ukraine crisis"

"WASHINGTON –  U.S. Army paratroopers are arriving in Poland on Wednesday as part of a wave of U.S. troops heading to shore up America's Eastern European allies in the face of Russian meddling in Ukraine.

Pentagon press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby said an initial contingent of about 600 troops will head to four countries across Eastern Europe for military exercises over the next month.

First, about 150 soldiers from the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team based in Vicenza, Italy, are arriving in Poland.

Additional Army companies will head to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and are expected to arrive by Monday for similar land-based exercises in those countries."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04 ... d-ukraine/

Now if we would only establish permanent bases there (with the wishes of the local governments, of course), reinstitute our missile defense pacts with Poland and the Czech Republic, call Iran's treaty with us invalid, and ramp up our production of oil and natural gas, we could have Vlad crying in his Vodka!

Saber rattling of this sort by Obama is meaningless because everyone on the planet knows he won't actually take any action besides some symbolic gestures.

Putin can easily grab 50% of the Soviet Block back in the next 1.5 years without breaking a sweat.

It is what it is.  No one wants a war.  The US is as soft as the EU now, so there will be little real opposition to actual nation/state's that want to move aggressively.  We have our "war on terror" to deal with.  Lobbing missiles from drones into huts in the desert is as badass as we got now.

This. 

Obama could put all kinds of hurt on Putin and have strong support from the American people because we wouldn't have to write any checks or send any troops anywhere to do it, it's called heavy sanctions.  It would still cost us, but the pain would be indirect and after the fact compared to military action.  The problem is he can't do it in a meaningful way without Europe and I'm convinced that they'd be willing to see the reestablishment of most, if not all, of the Soviet Union before they'd take crippling economic action against Russia right now and endanger their economies.  Any government that doesn't deliver economic results is out on its ass or hanging in by the skin of its teeth, none of those cowards want to be the vote that becomes the proverbial feather breaking the camel's back.

[RuralEngineer]

http://news.yahoo.com/biden-pledges-sup ... 45214.html

It is pretty interesting that pretty much everything the anti-Russian folks have been saying from the start appears to be true.  The riots have been caused or backed by Russian forces, the "pro-Russian" militia appears to be made up of actual Russian soldiers, so that's not a surprise.  They've moved into eastern Ukraine from Crimea, just like predicted.  Now they're saying that any attempts by Ukraine to combat the Russian forces (who say they're not Russian, although one apparently said, when asked whether he was Ukrainian or Russian, "I'm a person") will be met with "force" just like in South Ossetia when they invaded Georgia.

We're giving Ukraine all these loans, but how are they going to pay them back if they've been overrun by the Russians?  I think it's time to start considering sending them military hardware so that they stand a better chance of resisting the Russians once the inevitable invasion happens.

[MachineGhost]

Putin just wants the shale gas, shale oil and transport pipelines in Crimea.  Everything else is just a smokescreen.  If the USSR was restablished at worse, no one would have any money to pay for their energy from Russia, so that's just not going to happen.  Use common sense, people!  Greed uber alles, not large penis envy or empire amibitions.

[dualstow]

I don't know if this has been posted. From 'Foreign Affairs' magazine. Interesting stuff.
Putin's Brain
Alexander Dugin and the Philosophy Behind Putin's Invasion of Crimea
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... tins-brain

[Reub]

Putin just wants the shale gas, shale oil and transport pipelines in Crimea.  Everything else is just a smokescreen.  If the USSR was restablished at worse, no one would have any money to pay for their energy from Russia, so that's just not going to happen.  Use common sense, people!  Greed uber alles, not large penis envy or empire amibitions.

Yes, but what will he want tomorrow?

[RuralEngineer]

Putin just wants the shale gas, shale oil and transport pipelines in Crimea.  Everything else is just a smokescreen.  If the USSR was restablished at worse, no one would have any money to pay for their energy from Russia, so that's just not going to happen.  Use common sense, people!  Greed uber alles, not large penis envy or empire amibitions.

I don't disagree that this is about resources.  I guess I'm just confused as to whether you're suggesting this is reason enough to turn a blind eye to the Russian annexation of neighboring countries on laughable pretenses that Putin himself engineered.

[ns3]

I read that it is going to cost 600 million dollars to deploy those 600 troops to three countries. What I want to know is why aren't we sending them a bill for services rendered? Why is this the responsibility of the U.S. taxpayer?

[Kshartle]

I read that it is going to cost 600 million dollars to deploy those 600 troops to three countries. What I want to know is why aren't we sending them a bill for services rendered? Why is this the responsibility of the U.S. taxpayer?

If governments actually sent bills out to cover the full cost of their "services".....you'd find everyone deciding they could do without.

Government only exists because it is theft. It's not a business.

1 million per soldier huh? I guess they're all Captain America. Probably 200 infantry and 400 cooks and supply folks.

[Reub]

Does anyone besides me think that Putin was capable of ordering the "plane crash" in 2010 that killed the Polish President along with dozens of Polish high government and military leaders who were flying into his country? It looks more likely to me every day.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_n ... ussia.html

"Two years after a plane crash in Russia killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski and dozens of government officials and military leaders, some Poles refuse to accept Polish and Russian investigators' conclusions that the crash was caused by weather and pilot error.

Opposition figures and conspiracy theorists protested outside the Russian Embassy in Warsaw on Monday, the eve of the anniversary of the crash that killed Kaczynski, his wife and 94 others en route to a memorial for victims of a Stalin-era massacre in the Katyn forest, near Smolensk.

Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the late president's twin brother and leader of the conservative Law and Justice Party, has speculated since shortly after the April 10, 2010, crash that the plane may have been targeted by Russia in retaliation for Poland's opposition to Russian President Vladimir Putin's foreign policy."

[Kshartle]

Does anyone besides me think that Putin was capable of ordering the "plane crash" in 2010 that killed the Polish President along with dozens of Polish high government and military leaders who were flying into his country? It looks more likely to me every day.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_n ... ussia.html

"Two years after a plane crash in Russia killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski and dozens of government officials and military leaders, some Poles refuse to accept Polish and Russian investigators' conclusions that the crash was caused by weather and pilot error.

Opposition figures and conspiracy theorists protested outside the Russian Embassy in Warsaw on Monday, the eve of the anniversary of the crash that killed Kaczynski, his wife and 94 others en route to a memorial for victims of a Stalin-era massacre in the Katyn forest, near Smolensk.

Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the late president's twin brother and leader of the conservative Law and Justice Party, has speculated since shortly after the April 10, 2010, crash that the plane may have been targeted by Russia in retaliation for Poland's opposition to Russian President Vladimir Putin's foreign policy."

Sure he is.

Here's the deeper question though........

If he did why didn't the US government, or ANY other government including Poland investigate and blame Russia?

Government's are first and foremost concerned with scamming and robbing the humans inside their borders. It's bad etiquette to expose the scams of other governments. They might start exposing yours.

I'm sure the US government brings down it's fair share of planes.

My point is not to minimize anything done by tyrants overseas or excuse Putin or the Russians. The point is focusing on foreign dictators only further enslaves you. When you ask the government to deal with people overseas you don't like they end up taxing you, sending kids to war, printing money, grabbing more power domestically, kidnapping it's opponents, making alliances with other dictators etc.

The result is never more freedom and a better world. We should create that here as an example to the people of the world rather than ask maniacs to attack other maniacs.

[Reub]

I doubt that there was any real evidence of a plot by Putin to kill the President of Poland. Putin is too smart for that. So it would have been wild speculation, inflammatory, and would go against our policy of appeasing Russia and apologizing for everything. Poland, having no direct proof, would have been provoking this monster of a man with meager defenses and little or no support from the U.S. 

[ns3]

I doubt that there was any real evidence of a plot by Putin to kill the President of Poland. Putin is too smart for that. So it would have been wild speculation, inflammatory, and would go against our policy of appeasing Russia and apologizing for everything. Poland, having no direct proof, would have been provoking this monster of a man with meager defenses and little or no support from the U.S.

As usual, Pat Buchanan offers a rare dose of sanity on dealing with Putin....

http://www.humanevents.com/2014/04/25/o ... as-pariah/

Some great quotes if you don't have time to read it....

But as Henry Kissinger argues, “the demonization of Putin is not a policy. It is an alibi for the absence of one.”?

What should we do if Putin seizes Southern Ukraine to Odessa?

What did Ike do about Hungary in 1956, or JFK do when the Wall went up? What did LBJ do about Czechoslovakia in 1968, or Reagan do when Solidarity was crushed?

Mature leaders, they accepted militarily what they could not prevent.

Personally, I view Obama's deployment of troops to Europe as a provocative act of appeasement. Not in the anti-Hitler meaning of the term as it is commonly used but the kind of appeasement that often does result in war - appeasement of the drumbeating warmongers, commonly known today as neo-conservatives.

[dualstow]

Here's the deeper question though........

If he did why didn't the US government, or ANY other government including Poland investigate and blame Russia?

I'm sure a lot of Polish citizens blame Russia, but they can deny it, and there's nothing Poland could do about it.
(I don't think the Russians did it, though. Sometimes a plane crash is just a plane crash).
Even for a country with a reputation as the "World Police", this is way out of Team America's jurisdiction.

[Reub]

Why don't you think that the Russians did it? This looks like something that Putin would have relished doing. And he had every opportunity over his own soil. Who was going to investigate it?

[dualstow]

Why don't you think that the Russians did it? This looks like something that Putin would have relished doing. And he had every opportunity over his own soil. Who was going to investigate it?

The fact is, the Polish did investigate, and the main cause shown in their own official statement is crew error. Furthermore, they found the Russian investigation to be fair, a refreshing change, even if there were some disagreements and discrepancies. It's all on the wiki page. The crash was a terrible tragedy, but although I think the Soviet Union (and now Putin's Russian Federation) is one of the most evil entities the earth has ever seen, and although I'm sure Putin didn't shed a tear for his Polish neighbors, I don't buy into conspiracy theories.

[Reub]

It says right in your Wiki article that the Russian controller told the pilot that they were on the glide path when they were not.

[dualstow]

That's what I meant by disagreements and discrepancies, Reub, but read the final conclusions.

[Reub]

The fact remains that the Russian military controller repeatedly misinformed the pilots that they were on the glide path when they were not.  This was an act of commission not omission.

Additionally the Russians have refused to present certain parts of the wreckage for international examination.

Also it appears that residue on the wreckage is consistent with a high explosive such as a missile.

Lastly the flight engineer of an aircraft that landed just minutes before the crash was mysteriously found hanged. He had previously reported hearing 2 explosions just prior to the crash at this military airport.

Just sayin......

[dualstow]

There's certainly enough weird stuff in the story to plant the "It's Possible" seed. But, you asked why I don't think the Russians did it and you have my answer. I could be wrong, and I can't prove it.

[Reub]

And I can't prove the facts the other way either. But one must consider the Putin factor in our equations.