The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

[MachineGhost]

Where did you hear about this regime, or did you develop it yourself?  A question...what's the extra benefit provided by the closys pre-brushing?  Brushing alone + Listerine should be enough to deal with oral pathogens, but no amount of mouthwashing is going to convert your mouth into an OR clean room.

The CloSys is actually a revolutionary way to deliver chlorine dioxide which is not stable.  Chlorine dioxide is a gentle, weak oxidant compared to other oxidants, but it is also a broad spectrum anti-microbial.  It's powerful enough that it is used to disinfect anthrax.  There was a bit of a scam a few years ago in getting people to ingest sodium chlorite internally (it would then turn into chlorine dioxide upon contact with an acid), called Miracle Mineral Supplement.  CloSys also has unique wetting properties that make it glide under the gumline.  So the main purpose of CloSys is to eradicate pathogenic bacteria from the mouth and restore and heal up gum pockets back to normal (or prevent them in the first place).  No need to fuss around with annoying irrigators and other too-much-work approaches.  I can tell you that the CloSys does a better job at cleaning the mouth than Listerine if going by morning-breath is any indication...  it should, since it's modern chemistry compared to Listerine which is just an old herbal formula once marketed for use as a douche!

Also, the ACT brand is necessary.  The Walmart clone version did not have the same level of stickiness and I don't think it was eradicating all of the Listerine as I was starting to get tooth pain.  However, I've found the Walmart clone version of Listerine to be completely acceptable since its just essential oil extracts and acid in water.  I love the Machiavellian irony of selling highly acidic Listerine as a last oral care step and keeping dentists in business.

I no longer advocate the use of Dr. Schulze's Tooth & Gum Formula in the regime.  It causes teeth staining, unfortunately.  I'd reserve its use for really serious mouth cases, which is highly unlikely to happen to anyone ever using this regime.

I've tried all the alternative approaches (baking soda, neem, peelu, xylitol, essential oils, etc.) over the years and they are just not as effective as this combined regime with chemicals.  That's just how it is.  Unlike Gumby, I don't have the time every day to sit around and thoroughly outline my teeth and gumline with a stick.

One last thing...  I cannot take CloSys twice a day as I get a nasty metallic taste on my tongue and in mouth and it effects taste for a day or two.  So, I use baking soda in water as a pre-rinse in the morning.  I just don't brush with it as its too harsh and strips the protective biofilm off your teeth.  No idea if a microfiber cloth strips that off, MT!

[t-bear52]

CloSys is the only oral rinse I recommend. Protective biofilm is a bunch of hooey.
Bottom line, mechanically (floss, brushes, inter-dental simulators) get the biofilm off the teeth and you will have no issues with dental caries nor periodontal disease.
Dental disease is an infections. Get rid of the bugs and live a life of no dental disease other than occlusal disease.
You need the bugs, substrate, and food source for the infection. All play a role in dental disease.

[Reub]

Are we certain that there aren't "good bugs" in the mouth that we need as much as we need the "good bugs" in our digestive system?

[t-bear52]

Of Course there are. But good luck with your selection protocols!
bottom line: No Biofilm= No Problems

[MachineGhost]

There are now oral probiotic supplements to replenish the "good bugs" in the mouth (I don't need more shit as 5 mins for this regime is all I can personally take).  It's mostly aimed at throat and ear infections.

But the "protective biofilm" is Dr. Ellie's speculative claim about the harshness of using baking soda to brush and why it is not recommended.

I don't remember if I mentioned it, but a tongue scraper is highly recommended.  It does the most for getting rid of morning breath beyond the regime.  I've done the regime where I forget to scrape and its just not as fresh.  The tongue is a bacteria sponge/minefield.  Just scrape before doing the regime.

[Benko]

Welcome back MG.

Thanks for info.    Closys looks interesting. 

[Benko]

If you read what the closys people recommend:

http://www.closys.com/our_products/step ... -care.html

They suggest:

--flossing
--waterpik with dilute closys
--brushing with closys toothpaste
--then rinsing with closys

[WiseOne]

Thanks for the info about Closys.  I found a toothpaste but no rinse - you're talking about the rinse, correct?

I'm using a rather unlikely oral rinse choice:  an enzymatic spray for pets!  Don't laugh.  I got Petzlife oral spray for my cats on the advice of a friend, only to discover that the thing terrified my cats so much that even now, months later, they yelp and run away even if I so much as hold it within 2 feet of them.  I'm completely baffled why anyone would think that cats would tolerate this (people use sprays to punish cats....duh).

Anyway I had this $20+ bottle of goop and I checked the ingredients, all very human-safe so I thought, what the hey I might as well try it on myself.  My next dental cleaning was the quickest and easiest I've ever had in my life, and that was after only about 2 weeks of use!  I bought another for my mother to use on my dad, who is too disabled to brush his own teeth.

I'm amazed no one has developed a product like this for humans - but of course I know why:  the cost of FDA trials would be prohibitive.  And worry not, it's not chicken flavored or anything, it's peppermint.

[dualstow]

Let me know if the Closys interferes with your sense of taste at all. I rinse with Biotene.
I'm a little paranoid about trying anything new ever since Zicam messed with my sense of smell.

I also think the spice cardamom is good for your gums. It's expensive, but if you already like it in your cooking...

[Benko]

I don't know if rinsing twice is necessary, but using dilute stuff with a waterpik is what I have been doing for years with listerene and clearly if you aim the waterpik nozzle at the gumline (WITH THE FLOW RATE LOWISH) you are going to get better penetration then just swishing with the stuff.

[MachineGhost]

Thanks for the info about Closys.  I found a toothpaste but no rinse - you're talking about the rinse, correct?

Correct.  The PetzLife looks like it has one of Listerine's ingredients.

Benko: Pay no attention to marketing fiction.  I wonder what all that pro-oxidizing would do to your enamel.  While I support that entrepreneurs should be able to offer dental whitening services without a protectionist license, it clearly damages teeth.

I fear that you guys may not be realizing how interdependent the regime products are on each other.  They're not to be used in isolation nor the use of substitution products or in isolation.  Yes, I know human nature loves novelty and loves to tinker and ruin a good thing, but realize you are going up against 30-years of clinical experience as well as literature evidence on what really works. 

Flossing is not necessary with the regime, but I don't expect anyone to take it at face value.  Prove it to yourself, first.  I don't know about waterpicking but if CloSys does the job as it seems to do, that may be redundant as well.

[Reub]

I have just received my Closys rinse purchased through Amazon. I like the way it makes my mouth feel and am gargling with it too. Could it be used as a gargle to help prevent sore/strep throats as well?

[Mark Leavy]

Deep Thoughts :  On tooth and gum maintenance.

I have long felt that the standard approach to teeth maintenance is inherently flawed.  I base that on the following premises:

1) Tooth and gum disease is clearly a chemical or biological issue - yet virtually all  practitioners rely on coarse mechanical means for maintenance.  Toothbrush, floss, “cleanings”? by the dental hygienist.  This is clearly whacking at the leaves while ignoring the root.

2) Taken as a whole, wild animals don’t have tooth and gum disease.  Other than being domesticated, why should humans be different?

Over a few years of experimentation, I’ve finally gotten to the point where I was able to discard my dentist.  For mechanical maintenance, I brush twice a day to remove wine and coffee stains (purely out of vanity).

By pure accident, while exploring other aspects of human biology, my previous periodontal and tooth decay issues have disappeared. Here’s what works for me:

1) I don’t eat carbohydrates - so no dental caries.  The bugs that produce caries starve to death in my mouth.

2) I eat a lot of raw free range egg yolks.  They are very high in vitamin K2.  Vitamin K2 carboxylates (i.e. activates) the protein osteocalcin which forces free calcium into the bones and teeth - and prevents it from depositing into the soft tissues such as the arteries and gums - thus no teeth tartar to scrape off.

3) I eat an ounces of hydrolyzed collagen every day.  Scurvy (you know the disease that most people believe is a lack of vitamin C?) is really a disease of deficient collagen production.  The teeth get loose and bleed, the joints ache, the organs fail.  Pretty much the same thing that happens to us as we get older.  As we get older, we don’t manufacture collagen as easily.  We get more and more scurvy like.  Taking collagen directly in our diet mitigates the production issue - and reverses many of the symptoms - including periodontal disease.

So… I didn’t set out to address tooth and gum issues in my own life, but some of the other things that I experimented with inadvertently eliminated them entirely.

[Benko]

I fear that you guys may not be realizing how interdependent the regime products are on each other.  They're not to be used in isolation nor the use of substitution products or in isolation.  Yes, I know human nature loves novelty and loves to tinker and ruin a good thing, but realize you are going up against 30-years of clinical experience as well as literature evidence on what really works. 

MG,

This thread had been up for so long I had forgotten what the regimen was.

"you are going up against 30-years of clinical experience"

So the regimen has worked well for pts for 30 years.  The regimen has multiple components.  How does anyone know that all the components are needed?  If the closys kills all the bacteria why the listerene?

"as well as literature evidence on what really works.  "
Unless they did studies on the regimen with and without the listerene and with and without the act, there is no way of knowing if those are necessary.

[MachineGhost]

I have just received my Closys rinse purchased through Amazon. I like the way it makes my mouth feel and am gargling with it too. Could it be used as a gargle to help prevent sore/strep throats as well?

There are $1 off coupons off CloSys every month at their website (you can print two), good for use at drugstores.  Especially when said drugstore puts it on sale.

My elderly mother cannot tolerate Listerine (even that useless Zero alcohol version) or the ACT, so she may be forced to rely on CloSys exclusively.  Not ideal.  I'll look into her trying the PetzLife as a Listerine replacement.

Benko: The CloSys is primarily used to raise the pH of your mouth to protect it against the toothpaste and brushing.  That it being a wetting agent of chlorine dioxide to heal gum pockets is a bonus.  The Listerine is the real germ killer and is also used to disinfect your brush.  Plus the acidity of the Listerine helps the relatively higher pH ACT stick to the teeth better.

Okay then, we'll just say that while the individual products have decades of efficacy as demonstrated in the literature and by the ADA, the 30-years of clinical experience is in putting them together as a regime.

Tongue scraping, Emma-Dent (true ultrasonic brush), flossing, waterpicking, its all a bonus to the core regime.  I don't do the xylitol step throughout the day as I'm sensitive to the amounts necessary to have efficacy.

[Benko]

Thanks MG, point taken.

I will stick to the oral B for brushing as it has an accessary nice pointy brush for use between teeth which is almost as good as flossing.

[WiseOne]

2) Taken as a whole, wild animals don’t have tooth and gum disease.  Other than being domesticated, why should humans be different?

Because we now live longer thanks to agriculture, sanitary engineering, antibiotics etc.  As the old saw goes, it's no fun getting old but the alternative isn't so great either.

I thought the grapefruit seed extract in Petzlife is the active ingredient that sets it apart from Listerine.  Listerine does indeed kill bacteria & viruses (it's the best remedy I've ever found for cankersores) and Closys apparently does same, but these products do nothing for tartar once it's formed.  The petzlife stuff really does dissolve tartar.  I don't know of any product made for humans that does this successfully, including all those "tartar control" toothpastes.

[Benko]

  The petzlife stuff really does dissolve tartar.  I don't know of any product made for humans that does this successfully, including all those "tartar control" toothpastes.

I've had good luck with tartar control in colgate in preventing tartar formation when used regularly.

[dualstow]

Let me know if the Closys interferes with your sense of taste at all. I rinse with Biotene.
<snip>

I say, I say, does Closys rinse or any part of this regime mess with your sense of taste?

[MachineGhost]

Came across this...  http://mmsautism.org/miraculous-video-testimonials

I shall not comment.

[MachineGhost]

I say, I say, does Closys rinse or any part of this regime mess with your sense of taste?

I mentioned it does if I use it more than once a day.

[dualstow]

I say, I say, does Closys rinse or any part of this regime mess with your sense of taste?

I mentioned it does if I use it more than once a day.

Ah, thanks. I missed it.

[MachineGhost]

Got my teeth cleaned for the first time since I started the regime, and there was hardly anything to remove.  No painful pulling or scraping requiring numbing agent; no flossing required.  But I had staining which took the most amount of time to deal with.  Overall, it took about 30 minutes.  I figure that's from either when I used Schulze's herbal formula which stains everything, the Closys reacting and oxidizing or a new idea this morning, the beet-based sublingual SOD.  We'll see.

[Benko]

MG

Just noticed the part about soaking your toothbrush in a cup of listerene.  Do  you really think that makes any difference?

[MachineGhost]

Just noticed the part about soaking your toothbrush in a cup of listerene.  Do  you really think that makes any difference?

Oh yeah, toothbrushes are disgusting cesspools of bacteria (especially spray from uncovered toilet) and recontaminating your teeth isn't a great idea.  That being said, I rarely do it because I don't like wasting so much listerine.  Maybe I'll just start cleaning the brush along with the nightguard in the ultrasonic cleaner every morning.

Be sure you tip your head back and to the sides to get the back molars when doing the squishing.