Carrying physical gold out of the country

[ns3]

Anybody have any experience with this?

All my physical gold is Golden Eagles and it's engraved right on them by the U.S. mint that they are legal tender and worth $50 so does that mean I can legally carry 200 Golden eagles out of the country without declaring them ($10,000 limit = 200 * 50)?

And if it's not legal and I tried and got caught wouldn't I have a very good case for pleading ignorance?

[Pointedstick]

If things are so bad that you're feeling the need to take all your eagles out of the country, I kind of doubt the border guards are going to be amused by your clever trick. More likely, you'll be paying someone a few of those coins to smuggle you out of the country.

Also, does pleading ignorance work anymore? I thought people were supposed to have memorized the entire eleventy jillion page book of laws and regulations.

[ns3]

If things are so bad that you're feeling the need to take all your eagles out of the country, I kind of doubt the border guards are going to be amused by your clever trick. More likely, you'll be paying someone a few of those coins to smuggle you out of the country.

Also, does pleading ignorance work anymore? I thought people were supposed to have memorized the entire eleventy jillion page book of laws and regulations.

Actually, PS, I'm not thinking about a drastic scenario of things being so bad that I need to get all my gold out of the country. I plan on retiring somewhere overseas in the near future (+- 5 years?)  and I'm trying to figure out what to do with all those coins I have saved.

[Pointedstick]

Hmm, that's an interesting question, then. Even if you had to report them today as you crossed the border, are there any laws or regulations on the books that would tax you on them or something at the point of departure?

For that matter, how does this work with your electronic assets still held in U.S.-based brokerages?

[ns3]

Hmm, that's an interesting question, then. Even if you had to report them today as you crossed the border, are there any laws or regulations on the books that would tax you on them or something at the point of departure?

For that matter, how does this work with your electronic assets still held in U.S.-based brokerages?

No problem with the electronic assets as I'm not planning on renouncing my citizenship. I just plan on living my retirement years mostly overseas. If I was renouncing my citizenship I know I would have to pay an exit tax equal to what the capital gains would be if I liquidated all my assets. Not going to do that.

Would just like to take the gold with me somehow, or at least some of it.

[WildAboutHarry]

In responding to another gold thread, I came across this gem from Harry Browne (You Can Profit From a Monetary Crisis) about crossing borders with gold coins in 1974:

It's illegal to import Mexican peso gold coins into the United States, but legal to own them.  So if you buy them and take them out of the country, it's illegal to bring them back in.

Of course that could never happen again 

[ns3]

In responding to another gold thread, I came across this gem from Harry Browne (You Can Profit From a Monetary Crisis) about crossing borders with gold coins in 1974:

It's illegal to import Mexican peso gold coins into the United States, but legal to own them.  So if you buy them and take them out of the country, it's illegal to bring them back in.

Of course that could never happen again 

Good point. Even if you got the coins out of the U.S. it would only be half the battle. You also need to get them into another country. Been there, done that with other things.

So, assuming that carrying the coins on your person is not a good idea are there any other suggestions for how to physically move personally held gold from one country to another (and assuming relatively small quantities - not millions of $)?

[Bean]

Good point. Even if you got the coins out of the U.S. it would only be half the battle. You also need to get them into another country. Been there, done that with other things.

So, assuming that carrying the coins on your person is not a good idea are there any other suggestions for how to physically move personally held gold from one country to another (and assuming relatively small quantities - not millions of $)?

As part of your pocket change.

More than can get lost in your pocket change: I wouldn't attempt the move in anything other than in maybe a private charter of an airplane or boat. Also, I would make sure I know all there is to know about the customs and laws of where I am going.

[hoost]

Anybody have any experience with this?

All my physical gold is Golden Eagles and it's engraved right on them by the U.S. mint that they are legal tender and worth $50 so does that mean I can legally carry 200 Golden eagles out of the country without declaring them ($10,000 limit = 200 * 50)?

And if it's not legal and I tried and got caught wouldn't I have a very good case for pleading ignorance?

I saw either an article or a forum post from someone who did this.  He was moving from the US to Australia and had a bunch of silver and gold.  I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Libertarian666]

Assuming that gold is legal to own at that point, I would sell them first and rebuy them wherever I was going.

If it were illegal to own gold, I should have sold them earlier. :p

Oh, and as for the "legal tender" trick, I would not try that; I'm pretty sure one could end up with them being confiscated. They can interpret the laws any way they want and you would have very little or no recourse.

[dragoncar]

Assuming that gold is legal to own at that point, I would sell them first and rebuy them wherever I was going.

If it were illegal to own gold, I should have sold them earlier. :p

Oh, and as for the "legal tender" trick, I would not try that; I'm pretty sure one could end up with them being confiscated. They can interpret the laws any way they want and you would have very little or no recourse.

In general, borders are scary with very little recourse.  I try to bring as little as possible when crossing borders (including data - the US can and will make a copy of your hard drive if they feel like it).

[ns3]

Oh, and as for the "legal tender" trick, I would not try that; I'm pretty sure one could end up with them being confiscated. They can interpret the laws any way they want and you would have very little or no recourse.

I get that it would be very risky and I would never try it without knowing exactly what I was getting into but is it really a trick? From the wiki article....

These bullion coins carry face values of $5, $10, $25, and $50. These are their legal values reflecting their issue and monetized value as coins. They are legal tender[1] for all debts public and private at their face values.

I don't have one in front of me to look at but isn't this even engraved on the coin?

[Pointedstick]

I get that it would be very risky and I would never try it without knowing exactly what I was getting into but is it really a trick? From the wiki article....

These bullion coins carry face values of $5, $10, $25, and $50. These are their legal values reflecting their issue and monetized value as coins. They are legal tender[1] for all debts public and private at their face values.

I don't have one in front of me to look at but isn't this even engraved on the coin?

What the law says isn't really relevant. What the border guards would do is what matters.

With high risks to failure, I'm not sure I would risk trying to make the case, personally.

[Ad Orientem]

See chapter 15 of The Permanent Portfolio by Craig Rowland and J.M. Lawson.

[k9]

Or, the law could be used against you : "oh, those coins are worth 50$ ? So you won't mind if we take them and give you back 50$ notes, right ? Since you consider these coins are nothing more than legal tender ?"

[Larshus]

I import and export large quantities of gold daily as a bonded importer/exporter and marketmaker. Let me inform you of the current law (which could change).

First forget the $10,000 cash limit. It has nothing to do with the eagles. The intrinsic value is much higher which is all that customs cares about. Next, you are not restricted, at all, from carrying any amount of gold out of the country. There are no laws against it (assuming its not in a form that is restricted). However, you must have the correct paperwork filed to export it. You better have a copy of that peperwork stamped and with you on the flight or you may be detained.

In theory you can do it at the airport at the customs desk right before your flight, although some airports want you to do it the day before. The other issues is that you best make sure the custom desk is BEFORE security. Going through security with gold at an international terminal without out a stamped declaration of export will cause issues.

The reality is that most of the customs desks have NO IDEA what they are doing and you'll need to have a registered broker do the paperwork if you are not familiar with the forms. The forms are not complicated but you'll need to know the numbering system for exports to do it correctly. Also note that there is NO FEE nor restriction on exporting the gold out of the US.

The tricky part is going to be the importation of gold into the other side. Switzerland is the easiest, as there are no fees, but even then you MUST register the gold at the customs desk for import. Any other country you best have the importation paperwork filled out and any customs/VAT paid or your gold will be immediately seized.

Hope this helps.

[dragoncar]

I import and export large quantities of gold daily as a bonded importer/exporter and marketmaker. Let me inform you of the current law (which could change).

First forget the $10,000 cash limit. It has nothing to do with the eagles. The intrinsic value is much higher which is all that customs cares about. Next, you are not restricted, at all, from carrying any amount of gold out of the country. There are no laws against it (assuming its not in a form that is restricted). However, you must have the correct paperwork filed to export it. You better have a copy of that peperwork stamped and with you on the flight or you may be detained.

In theory you can do it at the airport at the customs desk right before your flight, although some airports want you to do it the day before. The other issues is that you best make sure the custom desk is BEFORE security. Going through security with gold at an international terminal without out a stamped declaration of export will cause issues.

The reality is that most of the customs desks have NO IDEA what they are doing and you'll need to have a registered broker do the paperwork if you are not familiar with the forms. The forms are not complicated but you'll need to know the numbering system for exports to do it correctly. Also note that there is NO FEE nor restriction on exporting the gold out of the US.

The tricky part is going to be the importation of gold into the other side. Switzerland is the easiest, as there are no fees, but even then you MUST register the gold at the customs desk for import. Any other country you best have the importation paperwork filled out and any customs/VAT paid or your gold will be immediately seized.

Hope this helps.

Just out of curiosity -- do you call ahead and inform TSA that you are going through security with high value goods?  I can't imagine you'd want to surprise them going through the x-ray and then risk them opening the bag there (even though you are supposed to get a private screening). 

edit:  Also, do you request a third-party witness?

[ns3]

Thanks for the enlightenment. Nice to see somebody post who actually knows what they are talking about.

Do you see any legal issues if me and my wife each put a few Eagles in our carry-on luggage for the return trip every time we return to the homeland to see our kids?

I import and export large quantities of gold daily as a bonded importer/exporter and marketmaker. Let me inform you of the current law (which could change).

First forget the $10,000 cash limit. It has nothing to do with the eagles. The intrinsic value is much higher which is all that customs cares about. Next, you are not restricted, at all, from carrying any amount of gold out of the country. There are no laws against it (assuming its not in a form that is restricted). However, you must have the correct paperwork filed to export it. You better have a copy of that peperwork stamped and with you on the flight or you may be detained.

In theory you can do it at the airport at the customs desk right before your flight, although some airports want you to do it the day before. The other issues is that you best make sure the custom desk is BEFORE security. Going through security with gold at an international terminal without out a stamped declaration of export will cause issues.

The reality is that most of the customs desks have NO IDEA what they are doing and you'll need to have a registered broker do the paperwork if you are not familiar with the forms. The forms are not complicated but you'll need to know the numbering system for exports to do it correctly. Also note that there is NO FEE nor restriction on exporting the gold out of the US.

The tricky part is going to be the importation of gold into the other side. Switzerland is the easiest, as there are no fees, but even then you MUST register the gold at the customs desk for import. Any other country you best have the importation paperwork filled out and any customs/VAT paid or your gold will be immediately seized.

Hope this helps.

[Libertarian666]

Thanks for the enlightenment. Nice to see somebody post who actually knows what they are talking about.

Do you see any legal issues if me and my wife each put a few Eagles in our carry-on luggage for the return trip every time we return to the homeland to see our kids?

I import and export large quantities of gold daily as a bonded importer/exporter and marketmaker. Let me inform you of the current law (which could change).

First forget the $10,000 cash limit. It has nothing to do with the eagles. The intrinsic value is much higher which is all that customs cares about. Next, you are not restricted, at all, from carrying any amount of gold out of the country. There are no laws against it (assuming its not in a form that is restricted). However, you must have the correct paperwork filed to export it. You better have a copy of that peperwork stamped and with you on the flight or you may be detained.

In theory you can do it at the airport at the customs desk right before your flight, although some airports want you to do it the day before. The other issues is that you best make sure the custom desk is BEFORE security. Going through security with gold at an international terminal without out a stamped declaration of export will cause issues.

The reality is that most of the customs desks have NO IDEA what they are doing and you'll need to have a registered broker do the paperwork if you are not familiar with the forms. The forms are not complicated but you'll need to know the numbering system for exports to do it correctly. Also note that there is NO FEE nor restriction on exporting the gold out of the US.

The tricky part is going to be the importation of gold into the other side. Switzerland is the easiest, as there are no fees, but even then you MUST register the gold at the customs desk for import. Any other country you best have the importation paperwork filled out and any customs/VAT paid or your gold will be immediately seized.

Hope this helps.

If the total you are taking is over $10,000 and you are splitting it up to avoid having to declare it, then they could accuse you of "structuring" and confiscate your gold. Don't do it.