Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Kshartle wrote: Youtube "Bible verses not read in church". There are five of them. Some are funnier than others. The opening song is an instant classic.

The one with the hill people is my favorite.
You know that there were two sets of Ten Commandments, right?  I was happy to have that pointed out to me.

Another one that sort of hides in plain sight is the way Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes about having 1,000 women available to him (400 wives + 600 concubines) and basically being tired of banging all of them.  I always thought that was a pretty odd thing to be griping about in a book of the Bible.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MediumTex wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Youtube "Bible verses not read in church". There are five of them. Some are funnier than others. The opening song is an instant classic.

The one with the hill people is my favorite.
You know that there were two sets of Ten Commandments, right?  I was happy to have that pointed out to me.

Another one that sort of hides in plain sight is the way Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes about having 1,000 women available to him (400 wives + 600 concubines) and basically being tired of banging all of them.  I always thought that was a pretty odd thing to be griping about in a book of the Bible.
Imagine the dissapointment though. As they say....ignorance is bliss. I wouldn't doubt that as the inspiration for the entire book (Ecc not the Bible)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MediumTex wrote: moda,

I think that your description of God is different from the way believers might describe him.

If God were the entity you are describing, I don't think that anyone would want to worship him.

What you seem to be saying is: "Since God is this basically unsavory character, it makes no sense to worship him."  You position, however, rests on the assumption that God is, in fact, an unsavory character, and I don't think that a religious person would agree with that.

Since we are ultimately talking about an abstraction, people are free to interpret it however they want.  One person may see a narcissistic God (moda), other people may see  a kind and loving God (Mountaineer), and still others might see a badass combat strategist God who provides supernatural help to determine winners in military conflicts (many tribes in the Old Testament, the Knights Templar, and George W. Bush).
MT,

Totally... I hope it was clear that I'm not talking about the God "most people" believe in, but the one that is:

- All-knowing and all-powerful.
- Created a game that results in billions of people going to hell for eternity because they didn't discover Christ.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MediumTex wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Youtube "Bible verses not read in church". There are five of them. Some are funnier than others. The opening song is an instant classic.

The one with the hill people is my favorite.
You know that there were two sets of Ten Commandments, right?  I was happy to have that pointed out to me.

Another one that sort of hides in plain sight is the way Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes about having 1,000 women available to him (400 wives + 600 concubines) and basically being tired of banging all of them.  I always thought that was a pretty odd thing to be griping about in a book of the Bible.
There's a famous saying that goes something like "No matter how hot a woman is, there's a man who's tired of [banging] her."

I'm not sure that's true, but it seems relevant somehow.  ;)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Libertarian666 wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Youtube "Bible verses not read in church". There are five of them. Some are funnier than others. The opening song is an instant classic.

The one with the hill people is my favorite.
You know that there were two sets of Ten Commandments, right?  I was happy to have that pointed out to me.

Another one that sort of hides in plain sight is the way Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes about having 1,000 women available to him (400 wives + 600 concubines) and basically being tired of banging all of them.  I always thought that was a pretty odd thing to be griping about in a book of the Bible.
There's a famous saying that goes something like "No matter how hot a woman is, there's a man who's tired of [banging] her."

I'm not sure that's true, but it seems relevant somehow.  ;)

The monarch's version of that might go something like this:

"No matter how enticing a palace full of women might appear, there is some drunk, spoiled, melancholy prince who is tired of raping them."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Desert wrote:
MediumTex wrote: I'm okay with the idea that Hitler wasn't a Christian, but it is still disturbing to think that he and millions of his victims will suffer side by side in Hell for all of eternity.

I once took a New Testament course at a Baptist college (as a side note, the Professor's name was "Dr. Lord").  It was an evening course and most of the people in the class were part time students who had full time jobs and really weren't all that engaged in the class as far as I could tell.

So the professor is going over the requirements for salvation and I thought I was just pointing out the obvious by saying something like: "So that means all Jewish people are going to Hell then, right?"

Suddenly the whole class was engaged.  I think some people might have imagined that I was getting at some kind of anti-Semitic point (which I wasn't doing at all).  I just thought that we would get this interesting topic out in the open and really untangle it, but instead it just seemed to piss everyone off, including the professor.  That always seemed like a strange response to a very legitimate topic of discussion in a New Testament class.

I should have told my disgruntled classmates to express their displeasure with me through the strength of their counter-arguments, rather than through their sour and vaguely menacing facial expressions, but I didn't fully appreciate at the time that a college classroom is often not the best place to discuss controversial ideas.
"Dr. Lord."  That's perfect.  I agree that your question was very legitimate, and should have been used to stimulate some interesting conversation in the class. 

I think there will be many Jews in heaven.  But the rejection of Jesus by the majority of Jews is indeed a sad thing to see. 

One book and film that's worth checking out is The Hiding Place, about the experience of Corrie Ten Boom and her experiences being hauled off to Ravensbruck during WWII.  She and her family were hiding Jews in Holland.
Not nearly as sad as the rejection of Anu by devotees of the newfangled "Judeo-Christian" religions.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Desert wrote: God's sacrifice was sending his son to take on the world's sin and die in our place.  The magnitude of that sacrifice was huge, considering the pile of sin this world has experienced.
I'm not following. If God is all-powerful, then the magnitude of the global sin doesn't really have much bearing, right? And furthermore, couldn't the all-powerful God create an infinite number of sons with no effort at all if He really wanted to?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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I just want to point out the title of this thread is "Figuring out Religion".

Ummm.....good luck to anyone who got sucked in by the title. Hope you aren't dissapointed that we haven't figured it out yet on page 12. Maybe by page 112.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Desert wrote:
moda0306 wrote: I think MT's point is pointing out something pretty important...

We are trained to think of life as a gift... but how much of a gift is any child/baby getting to be born and die at the age of 2 because he was beaten/shaken to death by his dead-beat stepdad, only to serve an eternity in hell because he hadn't "found Christ."

Meanwhile, someone who murdered said child, and who knows what other disgusting acts, but "found Christ" in prison, goes to heaven for eternity.

Well, if I'm going to hell anyway (as I haven't found Christ yet), or I'll be forgiven if I eventually do even after what I'm about to say, here goes...



If God really think giving a child "the gift of life" for a few days/months/years only to have them suffer eternity in hell is fair, then I say to him, "F*ck you, God.  These kids didn't ask for your 'gift,' and any sin you want to attribute to them because their great, great, great, great, great Gramma ate a f'king apple is bullsh!t if you think an eternity in hell is fair while the very person who took him out of this world before he could even 'find Christ' gets eternity in heaven."

If God truly is all-knowing, he would have seen these problems coming before he even created life, and since he made the rules, he has to bear full responsibility for the setup.  2 years of life and eternity in hell is no gift.  Any being who would design rules like that deserves  no respect from me.


So I guess what I'm saying is that, even though there is overwhelming evidence that all this self-referential bible-quoting to prove the bible is the word of God is probably just flat-out wrong, on the off-chance that our God TRULY IS the way Mountaineer describes, I guess I have to say, with little risk to myself, as I can always repent if I "find Christ," your God is an @sshole and doesn't deserve my respect.

I'm not calling you the same.  I'm not trying to be insulting.  I'm just explaining to you the "faith" in my own moral code that tells me that this is narcissistic behavior.... and simply stating that based on his "setup" for judgment, I don't respect Him.  (Keep in mind, I don't believe much of this is actually true).

Further, to examine this a bit further, if God truly is all-knowing and all-powerful, then creating life was infinitely simple to him.  He literally did not have to go through one ounce of true effort or strain to create us.  He didn't slave away doing anything.  He didn't spend billions of years trying to design the physical world, screwing up along the way, being frustrated with himself, but doing it anyway to create a set of "rules" that will guide life over millions of years.

He just "did it," on a whim.  And in doing so, if Xan and Mountaineer are correct has subjected billions and billions of unknowing children to "the gift of life" for a couple years, followed by eternity in hell.  He could have wrote the rules differently, but didn't.  He knew hell was going to exist, and that billions of people he gave his "gift" to were going to go there for eternity.

So by sacrificing absolutely NOTHING (since he's all-powerful), he has knowingly (since he's all-knowing) set up a system that sends children to eternal misery as payment for his "gift of life."

And for now... if I'm going down... I'm going to go down with his TRUE gift in-tact... not the "gift of life," but the gift of reason and the gift of a moral center, not to mention dignity... and I "reason" that if your God exists the way you say he does, that he's morally vacuous, and is just doing this for shits and giggles... so if I find out that you two are right, I hope I have the balls to stick my middle finger in the air and go down like a man.

Maybe that's the true test.... what if the TRUE test is reading the gospel and being able to identify the moral disaster that is his decision to give "the gift of life" at the cost of eternal damnation, and just call him what he would be... an @sshole.

Maybe that's the ticket into heaven... use the ACTUAL gift he gave us (reason, dignity, and a moral compass) to have the balls to call him on the BS, for all the happy words that he tries to send our way, and that this is the true ticket to salvation.

That's a move I could see a truly wise God pulling.
God's sacrifice was sending his son to take on the world's sin and die in our place.  The magnitude of that sacrifice was huge, considering the pile of sin this world has experienced.
He didn't have to set things up to have such complex rules about certain people "sacrificing" for others if he truly is all-powerful and all-knowing.

Are you asserting that God is NOT all-powerful?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Yeah, I think I'm with moda here. If God is all-powerful, then anything he does isn't actually very impressive since it should be effortless. Perhaps we should be grateful for any given act of God because we like its effects, but as an all-powerful being, nothing God does should really impress us based on its complexity or difficulty, right? I mean, it would be like being impressed by a computer's ability to rapidly multiple large decimal numbers together. That's just what it does.

Does this make sense?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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moda0306 wrote: Are you asserting that God is NOT all-powerful?
Didn't Tech cover this with "Can God make a boulder so heavy even he can't lift it"?

The concept of limitless power is an impossibility. It's like the statement "there is no such thing as truth". It blows itself up so it must be false.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Pointedstick wrote:
Desert wrote: God's sacrifice was sending his son to take on the world's sin and die in our place.  The magnitude of that sacrifice was huge, considering the pile of sin this world has experienced.
I'm not following. If God is all-powerful, then the magnitude of the global sin doesn't really have much bearing, right? And furthermore, couldn't the all-powerful God create an infinite number of sons with no effort at all if He really wanted to?
So what exactly did he sacrifice? He knew everything that was going to happen anyway.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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moda0306 wrote:
MediumTex wrote: moda,

I think that your description of God is different from the way believers might describe him.

If God were the entity you are describing, I don't think that anyone would want to worship him.

What you seem to be saying is: "Since God is this basically unsavory character, it makes no sense to worship him."  You position, however, rests on the assumption that God is, in fact, an unsavory character, and I don't think that a religious person would agree with that.

Since we are ultimately talking about an abstraction, people are free to interpret it however they want.  One person may see a narcissistic God (moda), other people may see  a kind and loving God (Mountaineer), and still others might see a badass combat strategist God who provides supernatural help to determine winners in military conflicts (many tribes in the Old Testament, the Knights Templar, and George W. Bush).
MT,

Totally... I hope it was clear that I'm not talking about the God "most people" believe in, but the one that is:

- All-knowing and all-powerful.
- Created a game that results in billions of people going to hell for eternity because they didn't discover Christ.
Moda306,

I was going to respond to your earlier very long post where you described your view of God, but I'll comment on this short one instead.  Basically, I have tried to communicate that "you do not 'find' God".  He finds you by you hearing his Word.  Faith is strengthened by hearing that Word.  And, no where in my understanding says babies go to Hell.  One receives the Holy Spirit at baptism and that is why our denomination is a proponent of infant baptism.  Also, no where in the Scripture does it say babies who are not baptised and die go to Hell.  God is all powerful, all knowing, all present; He can do anything He wants and ALWAYS works to achieve his purposes and also CANNOT do evil, he always does good.  However, man in his infinite capability to rebel against God frequently cannot understand that.  It sounds to me like you have received a distorted view of God.

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Pointedstick wrote:
Desert wrote: God's sacrifice was sending his son to take on the world's sin and die in our place.  The magnitude of that sacrifice was huge, considering the pile of sin this world has experienced.
I'm not following. If God is all-powerful, then the magnitude of the global sin doesn't really have much bearing, right? And furthermore, couldn't the all-powerful God he create an infinite number of sons if He really wanted to?
This is something that I hadn't really thought about much before, but if you are an all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. being, what does it even mean for your son to "die"?  Doesn't it just mean that he will come right back where he came from originally?

I am visualizing God on a roller coaster platform where he turns Jesus into a mortal in the hope that Jesus can somehow change the nature of the roller coaster before the ride is over.  When the coaster comes back around, however, God is disappointed to see that the ride hasn't changed at all and Jesus is still in his seat, except his mortal form is dead.

If God already knew (because he is omniscient) that roller coasters tend to retain their essential character of being wild and scary without regard to who is riding them, he would have known that Jesus had a slim shot at changing the roller coaster during a single ride.  He would also have known that failing to follow the roller coaster rules could result in death or severe injury, and he would have known that Jesus would have necessarily been doing these things during his ride.  In other words, Jesus being killed in the process of trying to change the roller coaster should not have been a surprise to God.

With all of that said, however, all that God would need to do after the ride would be to go over to Jesus's car and convert him back into immortal form, which is the point from which they began the experiment only a few minutes before.  In other words, to describe what happened as a huge sacrifice for an immortal being seems to be overstating things a bit.  In fact, I would say that Jesus's death would have ONLY been a great sacrifice if God weren't all-powerful.  Then it would be really sad, as it certainly is any time someone dies on a roller coaster.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: And, no where in my understanding says babies go to Hell.  One receives the Holy Spirit at baptism and that is why our denomination is a proponent of infant baptism.  Also, no where in the Scripture does it say babies who are not baptised and die go to Hell.
I don't see how that follows. If the only way you can go to heaven is if you've accepted the truth and word of Jesus, then not being mentally capable of doing so can't be a get-out-of-hell-free card, right? If the Scripture doesn't say anything about this morally uncomfortable case, then shouldn't it just follow the general rule?

To be honest, it kind of sounds like the idea of un-baptized babies and children going to hell is so uncomfortable that an exception has been granted to make people feel better.

It sounds like your understanding is actually contradicted by the Lutheran church if they baptize babies at birth. Furthermore, if Lutherans are correct and baptism at birth is required to keep a baby out of hell, what about all the un-baptized Baptist and Presbyterian and Methodist babies? Are they all in hell?

Mountaineer wrote: God is all powerful, all knowing, all present; He can do anything He wants and ALWAYS works to achieve his purposes and also CANNOT do evil, he always does good.
If he cannot do evil, then he can't be all-powerful, right? I mean, maybe he doesn't want to do evil, but if he CANNOT, then he isn't all-powerful. An all-powerful being could do anything he wanted, good or evil.

Right?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: Basically, I have tried to communicate that "you do not 'find' God".  He finds you by you hearing his Word.  Faith is strengthened by hearing that Word.  And, no where in my understanding says babies go to Hell.  One receives the Holy Spirit at baptism and that is why our denomination is a proponent of infant baptism.  Also, no where in the Scripture does it say babies who are not baptised and die go to Hell.  God is all powerful, all knowing, all present; He can do anything He wants and ALWAYS works to achieve his purposes and also CANNOT do evil, he always does good.  However, man in his infinite capability to rebel against God frequently cannot understand that.  It sounds to me like you have received a distorted view of God.
Do you think that if the Dalai Lama dressed up as a baby after he died that he might be able to get into Heaven?

What about a severely mentally disabled person who spent her whole life in a vegetative state?  Would she get in under the baby exception?

What about a person with a mild mental disability who couldn't grasp the difference between Santa Claus and God, no matter how many times you explained it to him?

What about a person who had a perfectly good mind but who never heard about Jesus and then had a stroke that left him in a vegetative state and a group of Christian missionaries came through town and wanted to find a way to get the guy to Heaven?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Pointedstick wrote: If he cannot do evil, then he can't be all-powerful, right? I mean, maybe he doesn't want to do evil, but if he CANNOT, then he isn't all-powerful. An all-powerful being could do anything he wanted, good or evil.

Right?
That's what I call a logic bomb.

PS.....you should join the air force with those bombs.

The way I always handled this when I was a believer is to argue that whatever God does is by definition not evil and that our interpetation of good and evil was but a pitiful attempt at understanding the concept whereas he has mastery of it. Therefore, it's irrelavent if we consider whatever he does as evil. We are are wrong because whatever he does is right automatically.

However if Mountaineer or anyone would argue differently please shoot another argument out.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer,

I'm just taking your assertions to their logical conclusion.  Sorry for misquoting who finds who...

But if HE has to find ME, then this makes things even more ridiculous.  This puts it on HIM to find me, so he's purposefully avoiding certain good people only to send them to eternal damnation.

If baptism is necessary for a child/baby to find Jesus, that means unbaptized babies/toddlers spend eternity in hell.

If it's not necessary, then how do we know if God has "found" these babies/children before they go to hell?  If we don't know, how do we truly know how God "finds us?"

If God is all-powerful, then he didn't have to "sacrifice" his son... he chose to.  In spite of all of his power, he allowed one good man to absorb all the sin of the world.  What a nut-job.

If God is all-knowing, he I responsible for eternal damnation for existing as a result of his actions.  I doubt many people would describe a few years/days/etc with the price of eternal damnation if he doesn't "find you" in time to be a valid bargain.  Please don't bring me into existence if all you're going to do is place me, for eternity, in a horrible, hot place.  How sick is that?

You say he CAN'T be immoral, but that's based on HIS standards of morality.  I reject the morality of any all-powerful entity that would speak of the "sacrifice" they had to make, while subjecting billions of children to eternal damnation outside of their control (as you said, God finds you).  Perhaps I'm wrong and either will 1) burn in hell with other good people, or 2) eventually accept Christ as my savior while disagreeing with him, but as long as these facts stand, I'm not going to be afraid of taking the one true gift some God MAY have given us (a conscience, free will, and reason), and using them to their fullest extent.

In fact, if their is a God, it would be an insult to Him not to use them in attempting to identify His will for us.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Pointedstick wrote: Yeah, I think I'm with moda here. If God is all-powerful, then anything he does isn't actually very impressive since it should be effortless. Perhaps we should be grateful for any given act of God because we like its effects, but as an all-powerful being, nothing God does should really impress us based on its complexity or difficulty, right? I mean, it would be like being impressed by a computer's ability to rapidly multiple large decimal numbers together. That's just what it does.

Does this make sense?
Why would one ever want a God that wasn't all powerful?  They you would always be wondering if a "Bigger God" was going to come along?  And why would God want us to be impressed with his power ... I think I would be scared "shixtless" if I came upon the one who could create the universe from nothing and I'd be sure hoping there was some mercy to go along with that truth of his power.  Thanks be to God that is our God.  A God of truth, mercy and hope that ALWAYS works for good, even if I frequently cannot understand that in the present moment.  And, the fact that God came to us by assuming human form and lived, took on all of our sins, died, conquered death and rose again is miraculous.  Why would he care so much about little old me?  But he did.

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MediumTex wrote: RE C.S. Lewis's position that he can't know what deal God has made with other religions, that almost made me want to laugh out loud.

While it's certainly true that no one can know what deal God has made with other religion, it is also impossible to know for sure what deal God has made with your own religion (look at how many different interpretations of Christianity are out there), whether God has actually made a deal with any religion, or whether God even exists at all.  It's ALL a matter of faith, since God has apparently chosen not to reveal himself to us except through images of the Virgin Mary burned on pieces of toast, statues of her crying blood, etc.  If one were to say that God has actually revealed himself to us through all of creation, I would say fine, but that same creation is also the manifestation of many other deities as well.  For example, what would the Sun God say if someone were to say that the sun is a manifestation of God?  He might say: "Look, my sun franchise runs through the year 3,999, so could you maybe just pick something else in nature to cite as a manifestation of God?  I've already got the sun pretty well covered."

C.S. Lewis was a very smart man and a very good writer, but I think that many of his writings about Christianity sound better than they actually are simply because he was so good at crafting and telling a story.  When you really pick apart his arguments and reasoning, though, his logic is pretty tangled.  Ultimately, I came to see Lewis as basically a fellow who was very happy with how his religion made him feel, and he had a sincere desire to share that good feeling with others.

The problems I have with the kind of joy that C.S. Lewis was trying to share are the following:

(1) The joy often evaporates into a sense of guilt and anxiety over whether you are actually doing everything that God wants you to do in order to let you into Heaven.  In such cases, a person may come to live with so much guilt and anxiety that their religious experience can begin to literally shake them apart psychologically.

(2) The casual certainty that Lewis dangles in his writings simply isn't the day-to-day experience that most religious people have.  To the extent that the joy he writes about is contingent upon being able to develop the same sense of casual certainty about the truth of Lewis's brand of Christianity, then the failure to cultivate that degree of certainty can create much disillusionment and disappointment.
But that is not true.  God has revealed himself primarily through Jesus Christ.  To be quite honest I'm skeptical of most claims of miracles, even those performed by Jesus in the Gospels since I can see how these could be metaphorical.  But the one miracle that all of Christianity rests upon and needs to be accepted if one is to receive the deeper meaning of Christ, is the Resurrection.  Without this then I agree that Christianity is a manufactured religion and might result in some happy feelings and possibly thoughts of being unworthy of God.  I think the most important question one must answer in life is "Did God raise Jesus from the dead?"

I realize this is not easy to accept, and is likely impossible for most people, especially highly intelligent people. 

Why hasn't God given us a clearer sign?  Why doesn't he give us all a vision and tell us that he truly exists?  I don't know.  My hunch is the reason is similar to the difference between an arranged marriage and a marriage based on love.  God wants us to love Him, not simply follow Him because we have to.  Blaise Pascal said that irrefutable proof would only satisfy the mind and weaken the will.  That is not what God wants.

Keep in mind that there were several other Jews claiming to be the Messiah around Jesus' time.  But all these men were put to death and their disciples gave up or attempted to find a new Messiah that would free the Jews from Roman rule.  Remember that the prophesies claimed the Messiah would conquer the gentiles.  How can a Messiah do that when he is dead?

We need to explain the explosion of Christianity after the death of Jesus.  What would cause this?  A nice guy with some good moral teachings?  I doubt it.  Was a legend of Jesus manufactured?  I doubt it since it would be difficult for his followers to keep this secret, especially when being stoned, jailed, and killed.  Was Jesus only in a coma or unconscious when taken down from the cross?  I doubt it since we are dealing with professional executioners. 

Also look at Paul's letters, they are all about the resurrection of Jesus and how this changes everything.  Paul almost never mentions the moral teachings of Jesus, since that is not what was driving the early Christians.

It seems possible, but not entirely provable, that the cause of the explosion of Christianity was the literal resurrection of Jesus.  It still requires faith to accept, but it is not a blind leap of faith, there is reason involved in the process.  Don't just brush this problem away; the least you can do is look at the evidence and then decide.

I'll stop blabbering and for those interested in this question then I suggest they start with this slightly over produced but simple YouTube documentary from NT Wright (50 minutes).

Here are a couple lectures given by NT Wright on this topic:
- "Can a Scientist Believe the Resurrection?" (80 minutes)
- "Did Jesus really rise from the Dead?" (100 minutes)

To be honest I am still working through this problem myself.  A large part of me wants to write it off as a trick or conspiracy theory, but it seems so bizarre that this strange religion would take off the way it did and still remain so strong today.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Pointedstick wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: And, no where in my understanding says babies go to Hell.  One receives the Holy Spirit at baptism and that is why our denomination is a proponent of infant baptism.  Also, no where in the Scripture does it say babies who are not baptised and die go to Hell.
I don't see how that follows. If the only way you can go to heaven is if you've accepted the truth and word of Jesus, then not being mentally capable of doing so can't be a get-out-of-hell-free card, right? If the Scripture doesn't say anything about this morally uncomfortable case, then shouldn't it just follow the general rule?

To be honest, it kind of sounds like the idea of un-baptized babies and children going to hell is so uncomfortable that an exception has been granted to make people feel better.

It sounds like your understanding is actually contradicted by the Lutheran church if they baptize babies at birth. Furthermore, if Lutherans are correct and baptism at birth is required to keep a baby out of hell, what about all the un-baptized Baptist and Presbyterian and Methodist babies? Are they all in hell?
PS made me think of the following point with respect to baby baptism:

If you think of baby baptism as kind of like a "Gerber Hell Insurance Policy" that expires when the baby gets old enough to comprehend good and evil, then there are really two phases of our spiritual lives: the "Hell Insurance Policy" period, and the "Post-Hell Awareness" period, and the technique for avoiding Hell in each case is different.

As an attorney, I can easily imagine a lawsuit arguing that the term of the "Gerber Hell Insurance Policy" should have been longer in a given case where a child died after he learned about good and evil, but before anyone had gotten around to taking him to church.

If anyone were to tell me that there aren't (and can't be) any bright line rules in these kinds of cases, I would say why not?  Why do we have to guess about the right answers to these important questions?  God has certainly given us specific guidance in other areas, including what foods to eat on which days, who people can take as sexual partners, and what should be done to the tips of boys' penises.  I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect guidance in the vastly more important area of understanding which children will go to Hell and which children will go to Heaven.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Yeah, I think I'm with moda here. If God is all-powerful, then anything he does isn't actually very impressive since it should be effortless. Perhaps we should be grateful for any given act of God because we like its effects, but as an all-powerful being, nothing God does should really impress us based on its complexity or difficulty, right? I mean, it would be like being impressed by a computer's ability to rapidly multiple large decimal numbers together. That's just what it does.

Does this make sense?
Why would one ever want a God that wasn't all powerful?  They you would always be wondering if a "Bigger God" was going to come along? 
It's not about what we want... it's about the truth.  Maybe we've stumbled across something here... when God "found you," were you in a position where you may have "wanted" something to believe in?  Perhaps one that said "all you have to do is believe in me, and you'll spend eternity in heaven?"
Why would he care so much about little old me?  But he did.
Was he worried about you when he created you, and billions more like you, and set up a place of eternal misery for anyone who HE didn't choose to find?

If you're right, God brought all of us into this earth, only to force many of us to suffer for an eternity.

That is f*cking INFINITY.  FOREVER!  BEING TORTURED IN HELL!  (I'm not yelling, just trying to exclaim my point)

He was all-powerful, and therefore set up the rules for other forms of power, positive-or-negative, and therefore he is fully responsible for hell... He can't just say "woah that's not on me... that's on you."  HE made the place, and the rules that dictate whether we go there or not.



PS,

Perhaps, by doing something, God MAKES it good. If morality is something handed to us by the rules of our creator (since we haven't been able to really define it yet haha), then anything he does is just "good."  Which, once again, makes him even more unimpressive as an entity. Not only is he all-powerful and all-knowing, but anything he does is just de facto Good instead of Evil.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Kshartle wrote: The way I always handled this when I was a believer is to argue that whatever God does is by definition not evil and that our interpretation of good and evil was but a pitiful attempt at understanding the concept whereas he has mastery of it. Therefore, it's irrelevant if we consider whatever he does as evil. We are are wrong because whatever he does is right automatically.
That's sort of a Richard Nixon approach to righteousness.  What is right is determined by reference to whatever he actually does.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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SEE MY COMMENTS INSERTED INTO YOUR QUOTE BELOW, IN CAPS.

... MOUNTAINEER
moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

I'm just taking your assertions to their logical conclusion.  Sorry for misquoting who finds who...

But if HE has to find ME, then this makes things even more ridiculous.  This puts it on HIM to find me, so he's purposefully avoiding certain good people only to send them to eternal damnation.

HE HAS ALREADY FOUND YOU.  THE ONUS IS ON YOU TO LISTEN AND HEAR HIS WORD.  THE ONUS IS ON YOU IF YOU REJECT WHAT HIS WORD SAYS.

If baptism is necessary for a child/baby to find Jesus, that means unbaptized babies/toddlers spend eternity in hell.

I NEVER SAID BAPTISM IS NECESSARY - PLEASE REREAD MY EARLIER NOTES.  ALSO, YOU DO FIND JESUS, HE FINDS YOU.

If it's not necessary, then how do we know if God has "found" these babies/children before they go to hell?  If we don't know, how do we truly know how God "finds us?"

BECAUSE HE SAID HE WOULD AND HE ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES.

If God is all-powerful, then he didn't have to "sacrifice" his son... he chose to.  In spite of all of his power, he allowed one good man to absorb all the sin of the world.  What a nut-job.

HE CHOSE TO SAVE US.  WE ARE ALL DESERVING OF ETERNAL DAMNATION OR HELL.  THANKS BE TO GOD HE IS MERCIFUL.

If God is all-knowing, he I responsible for eternal damnation for existing as a result of his actions.  I doubt many people would describe a few years/days/etc with the price of eternal damnation if he doesn't "find you" in time to be a valid bargain.  Please don't bring me into existence if all you're going to do is place me, for eternity, in a horrible, hot place.  How sick is that?

HE FOUND YOU BEFORE YOU WERE IN YOUR MOTHER'S WOMB.

You say he CAN'T be immoral, but that's based on HIS standards of morality.  I reject the morality of any all-powerful entity that would speak of the "sacrifice" they had to make, while subjecting billions of children to eternal damnation outside of their control (as you said, God finds you).  Perhaps I'm wrong and either will 1) burn in hell with other good people, or 2) eventually accept Christ as my savior while disagreeing with him, but as long as these facts stand, I'm not going to be afraid of taking the one true gift some God MAY have given us (a conscience, free will, and reason), and using them to their fullest extent.

NOW YOU ARE BACK TO THE TWO KINGDOMS STUFF.  YOU DO HAVE THE GIFT OF REASON, CONSCIENCE, FREE WILL IN THIS LIFE.  THANKS BE TO GOD FOR THE GIFT.

In fact, if their is a God, it would be an insult to Him not to use them in attempting to identify His will for us.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kshartle »

moda0306 wrote:
PS,

Perhaps, by doing something, God MAKES it good. If morality is something handed to us by the rules of our creator (since we haven't been able to really define it yet haha), then anything he does is just "good."  Which, once again, makes him even more unimpressive as an entity. Not only is he all-powerful and all-knowing, but anything he does is just de facto Good instead of Evil.
I thought that was the justification for laws in a Democracy. The people elect the officials and whatever they decide must be okey dokey :)

If God isn't the one who determines what is good or what isn't then there is no such thing.
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