Plumbing by Legislation

[WildAboutHarry]

Effective January 1, 2014, remodel projects in California will require replacement of all household plumbing fixtures with low-flow versions for houses more than 20 years old.  And not just bathroom remodels.

Want a deck?  Install a new toilet, et al..

Want to add a bedroom?  Install a new toilet, et al.

Want to add a pool?  Is there even a low-flow version?  Water-retaining cover?

Ok, I'm all for saving water and see no problem requiring remodels of rooms housing porcelain facilities to upgrade to low-flow products.  But, come on!

And I can see a time when water districts and water purveyors clamor for rate increases because conservation efforts have cut into their sales.

[Pointedstick]

Modern California is an interesting experiment to see just how far people can be pushed before they leave.

My own line was crossed earlier this year. And I could see the writing on the wall when the Democrats achieved a legislative supermajority and control of the governorship. It's basically a one-party state right now, and we're seeing just what Democrats will do when they get the power to legislate whatever they want.

[Ad Orientem]

Not a big fan of government regulation but offering the Devil's advocate position... California has SERIOUS water problems. Something needs to be done. Pay me now or pay me later...

imagine the pain if you own a rental complex with many apartments, there are some grandfather clauses in the new code but eventually compliance will be forced... and that is only one of a dozen or so (expensive) changes to the law just this year...

[Pointedstick]

States that have serious water problems have caused them themselves by artificially keeping water prices down, encouraging unsustainable expansion and overuse, and initiating polarizing political fights over who gets how much water. If they would simply allow water to be priced and delivered by the market, the problem would virtually disappear overnight and people would conserve water all on their own accord. It's a classic failure of central planning.

[Mountaineer]

My guess is that the California problems (water, one-party government, etc.) are self correcting over the long haul.  Many will do as Pointedstick did and leave for greener pastures as long as there is freedom to cross state or national  borders.  As others become fed up with shouldering more and more burden, they might even repeal some of the idiotic regulations and make the CA economy (or lack thereof) more in line with the rest of the country or world.  I doubt is is likely they would take the path of the Colonials against the British when the burden became too great.  Others may just "suck it up" and stay until they are no longer able to feed and shelter their families. 
This is the great thing about the freedom brought by capitalism - one can always try to better their lot in life. 

However, I might offer one ugly thought - it seems that capitalism was brought about or at least given a major kickstart with the protestant reformation.  It became a good thing to work hard and serve others instead of pitching all the money to make St. Peters beautiful or doing just enough to get by since the Holy Roman King would care for the serfs as long as they sent their goods to him and the Pope and fought their battles for more and more control.  It was actually quite a three way circus they had going: the Pope won, the King won, the masses (serfs) lost.  Thank God for Luther, Calvin, Hus, Zwingli and other reformers followed by the Catholic counter reformation.  The downside may be on the horizon though - now that we are throwing God out of everything civil (led by CA?) and we have an increasing population that does not have a strong work ethic, perhaps the future will not be so good for the state, and ultimately the rest of our country.

[Kshartle]

PS.....that's sounds like you're proposing non-violent human cooperation solving a problem of scarcity created by violent threats.

Funny how that works right?

Imagine if that principle was extended to everything.

[Reub]

So, PS, where are you moving to?

[MediumTex]

If the water problem is that serious, why on earth are they letting people build pools at all?

As far as low flow toilets go, I'm still not sure that they really save that much water.  If, however, they really are a priority, why not just give them away to people or set up an incentive program where everyone would have an economic incentive to upgrade old toilets?

I guess it comes down to whether you think that persuasion or coercion are more effective methods of getting people to do what you think they should do.  Holding non-toilet projects up over the age of toilets in other parts of the building seems like gratuitous coercion to me.

[WildAboutHarry]

As far as low flow toilets go, I'm still not sure that they really save that much water.

A polite way of describing the double (and triple!) flush

San Franciscans recently had the opportunity to start the process leading to the demolition of Hetch Hetchy dam (a major source of SF water) and the restoration of what some (John Muir?) have called a valley more beautiful than Yosemite.  They declined.

California has access to something called the Pacific Ocean which, last time I checked, was full of water (and sea levels rising!).  Of course it takes decades to get such a project approved in CA, and approval is never a sure thing.  Although we apparently are going to build a giant system of trans-delta tunnels to get water from north to south.  The 34,000-page environmental study just hit the streets.

For the record, this CA native is moving to WA soon.  Although WA is kind of a CA wanna-be, there is no state income tax, and the pension and state debt situations are relatively not horrible.

[Mountaineer]

As far as low flow toilets go, I'm still not sure that they really save that much water.

For the record, this CA native is moving to WA soon.  Although WA is kind of a CA wanna-be, there is no state income tax, and the pension and state debt situations are relatively not horrible.

I have family in both CA and WA.  Seems that east of the WA Cascades the bulk of the population is conservative and west very liberal.  Most of the population is west.  O give me a home, where the buffalo roam ........... and the toilet plungers are not required 

[WildAboutHarry]

I have family in both CA and WA.  Seems that east of the WA Cascades the bulk of the population is conservative and west very liberal.  Most of the population is west.

Right.  Seattle just elected its first Socialist Party city council member.  Mildly encouraging was the recent referendum on adding a state income tax.  It was defeated.

To continue the plumbing theme, I will be a conservative t*rd in the otherwise liberal punch bowl of western Washington.

Reub, we recently remodeled two bathrooms and installed American Standard (made in Mexico) low-flow toilets.  They work OK, but I do keep the plunger handy.

[ns2]

They haven't done the water thing where I live (Florida) but if you get a remodeling permit you have to buy hurricane shutters. The previous owner added a porch and so I now have a bunch of pre-cut plywood shutters sitting in my garage along with the hardware to mount them. I would have no clue how to do it when the time came but apparently the inspector was satisfied.

I also found out not long ago that you have to pull a building permit to install a water heater. Since mine went out on Friday night I had to wait the whole weekend until they opened on Monday.

[Pointedstick]

They haven't done the water thing where I live (Florida) but if you get a remodeling permit you have to buy hurricane shutters. The previous owner added a porch and so I now have a bunch of pre-cut plywood shutters sitting in my garage along with the hardware to mount them. I would have no clue how to do it when the time came but apparently the inspector was satisfied.

I also found out not long ago that you have to pull a building permit to install a water heater. Since mine went out on Friday night I had to wait the whole weekend until they opened on Monday.

You practically need a permit to pick your own nose these days. I believe Fred might have something to say about this.

Then again, the whole building and renovation permitting system wouldn't be necessary if people did quality work. I just found out the other day that earlier in its life, my house's gas plumbing was retrofitted for extra appliances by an amateur who didn't know what he was doing. The main supply pipe to the house is now undersized, which can cause gas-powered appliances to not burn cleanly when too many are running at once, and might cause them to emit carbon monoxide into the house if the safety shutoff valve stops working. Ooops.

It's perfectly possible to do quality un-permitted work if you know what you're doing, but as long as a lot of un-permitted work is shoddy and dangerous, the notion that permits are necessary to ensure health and safety will remain firmly implanted in the public consciousness.

[WildAboutHarry]

I just found out the other day that earlier in its life, my house's gas plumbing was retrofitted for extra appliances by an amateur who didn't know what he was doing. The main supply pipe to the house is now undersized, which can cause gas-powered appliances to not burn cleanly when too many are running at once, and might cause them to emit carbon monoxide into the house if the safety shutoff valve stops working. Ooops.

It's perfectly possible to do quality un-permitted work if you know what you're doing, but as long as a lot of un-permitted work is shoddy and dangerous, the notion that permits are necessary to ensure health and safety will remain firmly implanted in the public consciousness.

Was your house inspected prior to purchase?  Would that have been something for the inspector to catch?

I am not so sure about the value of permits.  I had a gas water heater installed a few years ago.  Stayed home from work for the city inspector's visit.  The inspector and I had a nice chat about various things.  I do not recall him inspecting the water  heater.

[ns2]

I am not so sure about the value of permits.  I had a gas water heater installed a few years ago.  Stayed home from work for the city inspector's visit.  The inspector and I had a nice chat about various things.  I do not recall him inspecting the water  heater.

I was supposed to call the inspector AFTER the job was done to come and inspect mine but I never did. So I guess I'm now guilty of running an unauthorized water heater.

[Pointedstick]

Was your house inspected prior to purchase?  Would that have been something for the inspector to catch?

This is the pre-purchase inspection. So yes, he caught it.

I am not so sure about the value of permits.  I had a gas water heater installed a few years ago.  Stayed home from work for the city inspector's visit.  The inspector and I had a nice chat about various things.  I do not recall him inspecting the water  heater.

I am the last person to defend the value of permitting in general, since this has been my experience in other contexts as well. All I'm saying is that it's darn hard to argue against them as long as a lot of people have personal experiences with dangerous un-permitted work. In a lot of ways, permits seem like just another type of signaling device, like college degrees nowadays. Often, as you and ns2 have shown, actual safety is not really taken that seriously. But for some reason a lot of people really seem to like having a special Official Seal Of Approval on things even if it's mostly meaningless. Again, I think Fred has a lot of high-value things to say about this particular state of affairs.

[WildAboutHarry]

I was supposed to call the inspector AFTER the job was done to come and inspect mine but I never did. So I guess I'm now guilty of running an unauthorized water heater.

Probably.  And I am sure the fine is many dollars per day of unauthorized operation.

PS: You have a good inspector!  The system works!

Required inspections are really just a way to boost revenues.  Collect the fee for the permit, the fee for doing the "inspection", and the assessed value bump that results in additional property taxes.

I would think local jurisdictions would be concerned about liability.  If an "inspected" water heater blew up, the victim could target the manufacturer, the installer, and the inspecting jurisdiction in the litigation.

[Pointedstick]

I would think local jurisdictions would be concerned about liability.  If an "inspected" water heater blew up, the victim could target the manufacturer, the installer, and the inspecting jurisdiction in the litigation.

I would be extremely surprised if most municipal employees have not been granted immunity from such liability.

[Mountaineer]

To continue the plumbing theme, I will be a conservative t*rd in the otherwise liberal punch bowl of western Washington.

I will tell my daughter to depend on WildAboutHarry to keep things out of the Scheisser in WA. 

[craigr]

Outside of Seattle, Washington state is pretty conservative even on the western side.

[WildAboutHarry]

I will tell my daughter to depend on WildAboutHarry to keep things out of the Scheisser in WA. 

I had to look that one up, but I was pretty sure what it meant 

PS: I'm not sure anyone can be absolved of liability if an act was deliberate (e.g., if someone faked an inspection for payola, etc.), but you are probably right that normal malfeasance of municipal workers is not subject to litigation.

CraigR:  I think (and I hope) you are right.  Although I've been warned about Bainbridge Island...

[ns2]

I was supposed to call the inspector AFTER the job was done to come and inspect mine but I never did. So I guess I'm now guilty of running an unauthorized water heater.

Probably.  And I am sure the fine is many dollars per day of unauthorized operation.

Damn, never thought of that.

Now that I'm an old fart I can hopefully write it off to memory loss and they won't take me for every penny I have saved.

[LC475]

Government doesn't work.

Markets, do.

That's really all that should need to be said.  There's lots of things that seems like maybe they should work or could work.  But we have more than enough data, more than enough experience, more than enough real-world testing to reach a very solid conclusion that government laws, government programs, government permits, and indeed all other activities undertaken by governments with forcibly-enforced monopolies simply do not lead to the sought-after desirable results for which they are advertised.  This is the conclusion Harry Browne reached by the end of his long life of examining and pondering reality.  I have reached the same conclusion.

[moda0306]

Government doesn't work.

Markets, do.

That's really all that should need to be said.  There's lots of things that seems like maybe they should work or could work.  But we have more than enough data, more than enough experience, more than enough real-world testing to reach a very solid conclusion that government laws, government programs, government permits, and indeed all other activities undertaken by governments with forcibly-enforced monopolies simply do not lead to the sought-after desirable results for which they are advertised.  This is the conclusion Harry Browne reached by the end of his long life of examining and pondering reality.  I have reached the same conclusion.

Work to what end?  What is your definition of something "working?"

Every single successful economy in the world has a very involved government.

So two short, oft-repeated but intellectually vacuous statements really aren't "all that needs to be said."  Not by a long shot.

[Kshartle]

Every single successful economy in the world has a very involved government.

This is basic confusion of correlation and causation.

The bigger a child's shoe size, the better the child's handwriting. Does having big feet make it easier to write ? No, it means the child is older.

If governments are just a group of humans feeding off the productivity of others then it's only natural they will develop and organize more prominently where economies are more successful.