Gold to $1050 next year?

Post by **dualstow** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:57 pm

Interesting. And, the page says only 6 people are currently using the Core theme. I'm using the Simple Machines (SMF?) theme, but again, I don't notice any ads b/c of AdBlock for Chrome.

Post by **MediumTex** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:24 am

I would install an ad blocker on your browser (they're great for more than just blocking ads here).

The ads here are just a standard package of Google ads and they generate about enough to pay for the hosting, but it's not too hard to work around them with an ad blocker.

No information about anyone here is used for anything other than whatever Google does through the ads.

If someone wants to help me set up a user donation system, I will get rid of the ads, other than the ad for the book at the top of the page.

rickb, let me know what I can do to address your concerns. I want you guys to be comfortable with the setup here.

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:58 am

rickb, that's just how the internet works these days. Ad networks (such as Google) place a cookie on your computer when you use their services or view their ads, and that cookie tracks your browsing habits to offer you "personalized" ads. Since Google ads are everywhere, the only ways you can really get around this are to delete the cookie, install an ad blocker in your browser, and, if you're into extreme measures, delete your Google account itself. Their services are convenient, but take a moment to ask yourself how they're able to offer them for free. If you're not paying, you're the product...

dragoncar · Post by **dragoncar** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:55 pm

Pointedstick wrote: rickb, that's just how the internet works these days. Ad networks (such as Google) place a cookie on your computer when you use their services or view their ads, and that cookie tracks your browsing habits to offer you "personalized" ads. Since Google ads are everywhere, the only ways you can really get around this are to delete the cookie, install an ad blocker in your browser, and, if you're into extreme measures, delete your Google account itself. Their services are convenient, but take a moment to ask yourself how they're able to offer them for free. If you're not paying, you're the product...

Right, you can block "off-site" content entirely, but it will break a few internet thingies.

rickb · Post by **rickb** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:54 pm

MediumTex wrote: I would install an ad blocker on your browser (they're great for more than just blocking ads here).

The ads here are just a standard package of Google ads and they generate about enough to pay for the hosting, but it's not too hard to work around them with an ad blocker.

No information about anyone here is used for anything other than whatever Google does through the ads.

If someone wants to help me set up a user donation system, I will get rid of the ads, other than the ad for the book at the top of the page.

rickb, let me know what I can do to address your concerns. I want you guys to be comfortable with the setup here.

What would address my concerns is a privacy policy that says something to the effect that no personally identifying information (or even potentially personally identifying information) will be shared with any 3rd party with typical exceptions for abuse and legal requests. I believe this would prohibit the use of Google ads, since obtaining and using personally identifying information from the sites that use them is exactly what they do.

Some examples of privacy policies that look reasonable to me:

Re fundraising - the bogleheads forum has a "support this site" link on every page that goes to a page where Paypal donations can be made (also includes a link to Amazon that results in a kickback to the site - much like your book link).

Post by **Xan** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:06 pm

Tex, what does the hosting here cost? (If you don't mind saying.)

dragoncar · Post by **dragoncar** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:50 pm

rickb wrote:
MediumTex wrote: I would install an ad blocker on your browser (they're great for more than just blocking ads here).

The ads here are just a standard package of Google ads and they generate about enough to pay for the hosting, but it's not too hard to work around them with an ad blocker.

No information about anyone here is used for anything other than whatever Google does through the ads.

If someone wants to help me set up a user donation system, I will get rid of the ads, other than the ad for the book at the top of the page.

rickb, let me know what I can do to address your concerns. I want you guys to be comfortable with the setup here.
What would address my concerns is a privacy policy that says something to the effect that no personally identifying information (or even potentially personally identifying information) will be shared with any 3rd party with typical exceptions for abuse and legal requests. I believe this would prohibit the use of Google ads, since obtaining and using personally identifying information from the sites that use them is exactly what they do.

Some examples of privacy policies that look reasonable to me:

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehea ... acy_policy

https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy
Re fundraising - the bogleheads forum has a "support this site" link on every page that goes to a page where Paypal donations can be made (also includes a link to Amazon that results in a kickback to the site - much like your book link).

Sorry but you don't understand internet. This web site doesn't "provide" any info to google, you do via your browser. Google asks you to store a cookie and you do. Later it asks for the cookie back and you provide it. This site sends your browser instructions to contact google to retrieve ads and your browser follows those instructions. Thus, everything is up to you and under your control.

ns2 · Post by **ns2** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:31 pm

I suggest using google Chrome in Incognito mode if you're worried about this.

You have to trust Google that it works as advertised, of course, but so far when doing normal browsing I have never had any ads pop up directing me to porno sites so maybe it really does work.

dragoncar wrote:
rickb wrote:
MediumTex wrote: I would install an ad blocker on your browser (they're great for more than just blocking ads here).

The ads here are just a standard package of Google ads and they generate about enough to pay for the hosting, but it's not too hard to work around them with an ad blocker.

No information about anyone here is used for anything other than whatever Google does through the ads.

If someone wants to help me set up a user donation system, I will get rid of the ads, other than the ad for the book at the top of the page.

rickb, let me know what I can do to address your concerns. I want you guys to be comfortable with the setup here.
What would address my concerns is a privacy policy that says something to the effect that no personally identifying information (or even potentially personally identifying information) will be shared with any 3rd party with typical exceptions for abuse and legal requests. I believe this would prohibit the use of Google ads, since obtaining and using personally identifying information from the sites that use them is exactly what they do.

Some examples of privacy policies that look reasonable to me:

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Boglehea ... acy_policy

https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy
Re fundraising - the bogleheads forum has a "support this site" link on every page that goes to a page where Paypal donations can be made (also includes a link to Amazon that results in a kickback to the site - much like your book link).
Sorry but you don't understand internet. This web site doesn't "provide" any info to google, you do via your browser. Google asks you to store a cookie and you do. Later it asks for the cookie back and you provide it. This site sends your browser instructions to contact google to retrieve ads and your browser follows those instructions. Thus, everything is up to you and under your control.

Post by **MediumTex** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:55 pm

Guys, I don't want to get into backroom stuff about this site other than to say that the hosting fees are modest, the ad revenue is modest, and neither I nor Craig share any information about anyone here with anyone else.

As I mentioned above, I think that an ad blocker will completely solve any concern about the ads on the site. If anyone has technical expertise to share that might make the site better or would like to discuss other concerns about the site, please PM me.

rickb · Post by **rickb** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:15 pm

dragoncar wrote: Sorry but you don't understand internet. This web site doesn't "provide" any info to google, you do via your browser. Google asks you to store a cookie and you do. Later it asks for the cookie back and you provide it. This site sends your browser instructions to contact google to retrieve ads and your browser follows those instructions. Thus, everything is up to you and under your control.

Actually, I do understand the internet - I work in the industry and have been deliberately keeping things somewhat simplified and a little vague (since many folks here do not know and presumably don't really care about the technical details). What this site provides to Google is a HTTP REFERER header that identifies the page I'm looking at here. Google also stores and is provided a cookie as you describe, but the combination of the cookie and the referer header allows Google to know what site I'm currently browsing (this one). They then proceed to stuff this information into their big data backend, along with every single other bit of information they can possibly get their greedy little hands on (including every Google search you've ever made). They sift through all this data looking for ways to correlate this user over here with that user over there and soon enough they know virtually everything about you. I'd be willing to bet they know my real life identity, my address, how many children I have, what their names are, approximately how much I make, etc etc They're in the business of selling information, so although maybe they might not do so now they almost certainly could sell a list of the real life identities of nearly everyone who visits this site.

MediumTex wrote: Guys, I don't want to get into backroom stuff about this site other than to say that the hosting fees are modest, the ad revenue is modest, and neither I nor Craig share any information about anyone here with anyone else.

As I mentioned above, I think that an ad blocker will completely solve any concern about the ads on the site. If anyone has technical expertise to share that might make the site better or would like to discuss other concerns about the site, please PM me.

The highlighted bit is actually not quite true. Since you've chosen to run Google ads here, you're sharing the fact of visiting this site with Google (and they then take it from there - but the essential hook was something you provided). This information, and the subsequent ability to display targeted ads, is what they're paying you for. If you weren't providing anything to them, they wouldn't be paying you.

Using an ad blocker is an option, but if the ad revenue is modest what's the big deal with just turning the ads off? And, if you're willing to say you don't share anything with anyone, why not state it as the site's privacy policy?

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:10 pm

It sounds like what you are really objecting to is this site's use of Google ads because you object to Google ads in general. I share your views, and it's why I use an ad blocker. Problem solved. It sure is easier than feeling peeved at the operators of every site on the web that uses Google ads.

rickb · Post by **rickb** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:15 pm

Pointedstick wrote: It sounds like what you are really objecting to is this site's use of Google ads because you object to Google ads in general. I share your views, and it's why I use an ad blocker. Problem solved. It sure is easier than feeling peeved at the operators of every site on the web that uses Google ads.

I view membership at this site in particular as more sensitive than most. Random retail or news sites - bah, who cares. A site whose members might reasonably be expected to have a substantial pile of gold within fairly easy reach is entirely different. I don't actually object to Google in general (for example, I use gmail). And, to be clear, I'm not peeved at MT or Craig. I'm making lets say a strong suggestion that they drop the ads.

Post by **Xan** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:34 pm

rickb wrote:Actually, I do understand the internet - I work in the industry and have been deliberately keeping things somewhat simplified and a little vague (since many folks here do not know and presumably don't really care about the technical details). What this site provides to Google is a HTTP REFERER header that identifies the page I'm looking at here. Google also stores and is provided a cookie as you describe, but the combination of the cookie and the referer header allows Google to know what site I'm currently browsing (this one).

It's not an HTTP referer header that they use. That's nowhere near reliable enough: it doesn't work on HTTPS, a lot of security software filters it, and you can easily turn it off in your browser.

But they definitely know what site you're on. The page you're visiting, when it includes instructions to your browser to load the Google ads, tells your browser to send a parameter to Google which identifies the site.

As has been pointed out, you can easily stop your browser from sending anything to Google in this scenario with an ad blocker.

Post by **MediumTex** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:36 pm

rickb,

For your own purposes and desire for privacy, why not just use an ad blocker? It seems like a really simple solution. I'm surprised you're not using one already.

I appreciate your concerns, though. Let me think about it.

BTW, are you okay with the book ad at the top of the page? I wouldn't want to get rid of the Google ads and then find out that the book ad is also problematic.

rickb · Post by **rickb** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:58 pm

MediumTex wrote: rickb,

For your own purposes and desire for privacy, why not just use an ad blocker? It seems like a really simple solution. I'm surprised you're not using one already.

I appreciate your concerns, though. Let me think about it.

BTW, are you okay with the book ad at the top of the page? I wouldn't want to get rid of the Google ads and then find out that the book ad is also problematic.

The book ad at the top of the page is the same for everyone, and it tells Amazon that the source of the hit is gyroscopicinvesting.com. It's fine.

The Google ads are an entirely different level of snoopiness. Their goal is to uniquely identify every individual and track their activity across the entire web (collecting as much information as they can from every single hit). As I've said, in many cases I'm fine with this. Here, not so much. I can disrupt their tracking of me (globally, or just here if I want), but it seems to me this site has some particular attributes that warrant the site itself opting out of this. Bogleheads doesn't do this - why should you? Any why are you at all reluctant to codify in a publicly stated privacy policy what you said above?

Post by **MediumTex** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:17 am

rickb wrote:
MediumTex wrote: rickb,

For your own purposes and desire for privacy, why not just use an ad blocker? It seems like a really simple solution. I'm surprised you're not using one already.

I appreciate your concerns, though. Let me think about it.

BTW, are you okay with the book ad at the top of the page? I wouldn't want to get rid of the Google ads and then find out that the book ad is also problematic.
The book ad at the top of the page is the same for everyone, and it tells Amazon that the source of the hit is gyroscopicinvesting.com. It's fine.

The Google ads are an entirely different level of snoopiness. Their goal is to uniquely identify every individual and track their activity across the entire web (collecting as much information as they can from every single hit). As I've said, in many cases I'm fine with this. Here, not so much. I can disrupt their tracking of me (globally, or just here if I want), but it seems to me this site has some particular attributes that warrant the site itself opting out of this. Bogleheads doesn't do this - why should you? And why are you at all reluctant to codify in a publicly stated privacy policy what you said above?

I'm not reluctant at all. I'm just trying to figure out how to respond to your concerns. This topic has only been on my mind for a couple of hours.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:06 am

A few ideas/comments...

1) You can opt-out of Google Ad tracking: http://www.google.com/settings/ads

I'm not entirely sure if it does very much (I use an ad blocker) but at least it's something.

2) If there were a way to only serve ads to those who aren't logged in, I would think that would be a good compromise (by protecting members and monetizing visitors).

3) It's incorrect to assume that avoiding Google Ads is the only way that Google tracks your viewing habits. Most sites use Google Analytics to monitor traffic including gyroscopicinvesting.com — and the Google Analytics script is extremely invasive. I think it's probably unfair to ask MediumTex and Craigr to eliminate Google Analytics tracking simply because people don't feel like taking the steps to insulate themselves from Google properly, considering that...

4) Every time you click on a link and land on another site that embraces Google (99.9999% of the Internet) Google instantly knows your browsing history and what site you clicked that link from, regardless of whether or not that site is insulated from Google. In other words, Google still knows you frequent gyroscopicinvesting.com every time you click an external link from here.

5) You can use programs like Little Snitch to monitor what domains/IPs are communicating with your computer at any given time and take action appropriately as...

6) There are plenty of resources explaining how people can remove themselves from the Googleverse — including Google Analytics. For instance... "Security Spread: How I left Google and how you can too" and "Security Spread: How to live without Google"

7) Let's not forget that the PayPal Donate button itself gives PayPal the ability to track your viewing habits and collect data about you.

I suspect removing Google Ads has just given people a false sense of security. It really is up to individuals to monitor their own privacy.

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:23 am

Given what Gumby has (accurately) posted, this complaint strikes me as somewhat akin to grousing about being rained on while holding an umbrella. Just install the dang ad blocker and move on with life!

Life's too short to get upset about how websites are tracking people when you have the means to stop it within your own power.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:37 am

Btw... if you want to see something scary (and have a Google account that hasn't been properly scrubbed) check this out...

https://maps.google.com/locationhistory/b/0/dashboard

Post by **Xan** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:37 am

Pointedstick wrote: Given what Gumby has (accurately) posted, this complaint strikes me as somewhat akin to grousing about being rained on while holding an umbrella. Just install the dang ad blocker and move on with life! Life's too short to get upset about how websites are tracking people when you have the means to stop it within your own power.

My guess is that Rick (remember, he works in the industry) is with a company that relies on web ads for revenue. That's the only thing I can think of that would explain his reluctance to install an ad blocker.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:41 am

Xan wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Given what Gumby has (accurately) posted, this complaint strikes me as somewhat akin to grousing about being rained on while holding an umbrella. Just install the dang ad blocker and move on with life! Life's too short to get upset about how websites are tracking people when you have the means to stop it within your own power.
My guess is that Rick (remember, he works in the industry) is with a company that relies on web ads for revenue. That's the only thing I can think of that would explain his reluctance to install an ad blocker.

I had the exact same thought. The good news is that the ad blockers can be configured on a site-by-site basis. But, again, the Ad Blockers don't stop Google Analytics, which is everywhere — easiest thing to do is just install this... http://www.donottrack.me

Also, a lot of people don't realize that Facebook tracks everybody on every site that has a "Like" button (again... like 90% of the Internet), including what sites they were previously referred by before landing on that page. So, click on a link from gyroscopicinvesting.com and land on the Wall Street Journal and both Google and Facebook (and the WSJ) know you were just at gyroscopicinvesting.com a moment ago.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:48 am

To be clear... I have no problem with MT or Craigr using Google Analytics or Google Ads or whatever they want to use on their site. It's their site and it's our responsibility to protect ourselves. These invasive Google/Facebook technologies are so pervasive that it makes no sense for content providers like MT and Craigr to shun them simply for other people's laziness. Protect yourself.

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:56 am

Gumby wrote: To be clear... I have no problem with MT or Craigr using Google Analytics or Google Ads or whatever they want to use on their site. It's their site and it's our responsibility to protect ourselves. These invasive Google/Facebook technologies are so pervasive that it makes no sense for content providers like MT and Craigr to shun them simply for other people's laziness. Protect yourself.

Bingo.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:59 am

[Deleted: I'm going to repost this has its own topic]

Post by **Xan** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:01 am

My understanding is that ad blockers DO block Google Analytics.

Gold to $1050 next year?

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