Nutritional Supplements and Health

[MediumTex]

Since we have covered food and exercise, I thought we might touch on supplements.

Here is what I take more or less daily:

Vitamin C
Omega 3 Fish Oil
CoQ10
Tryptophan
Rhodiola Rosea
St. John's Wort
Potassium

Rhodiola in particular is something many people may not be familiar with and it has an interesting cluster of potential benefits.  Apparently, the Russians felt their understanding of Rhodiola provided them with an edge over the West during the Cold War (though apparently not enough of an edge to avoid collapse).

[Lone Wolf]

This place is fast becoming a one-stop shop for all your fitness and financial needs. 

For me it's:

CoQ10 (good call on this one, MT)
Multi-Vitamin
Omega 3 Fish Oil Caps
Vitamin D

[Wonk]

I'm relatively simple:

D3
B12
Krill Oil (used to be fish oil)

I'm investigating dehydrated superfoods at the moment so I'm in a holding pattern.  I'm trying to figure out how I can establish metrics for evaluating their efficacy.  Most likely I'll go with the Spectracell test to measure micronutrient and telomere scores.  Oh...that reminds me!  I'm going to post something on the food thread....

[Pkg Man]

Multi vitamin
Flax seed oil
81 mg aspirin
Occasional garlic tablet

[l82start]

nothing at all... but if i get feeling run down or feel oncoming allergy's or illness i take anti ox (allergy research group) and vitamin c

[Storm]

Vitamin C
Vitamin B complex
Multivitamins
Omega 3 supplement (fish oil)
Flaxseed oil
Milk thistle extract (herbal supplement that improves liver health)
Resveratrol (one of the most powerful anti-oxidants)
Pro-biotic (Acidophilus)

I hope the Resveratrol really works the way they say it does.

[Storm]

Another thing to mention - along with the "let food be your medicine" guidelines - I try to eat a decent amount of garlic and ginger in my foods.  If you cook with ginger, it is a powerful anti-inflammatory that can cure most common illnesses.  In fact, when you start feeling like you're getting a cold, slicing some ginger root and boiling it into a tea can stop it before it starts.  The ginger tea is very spicy but such a powerful anti-inflammatory can cure most illnesses without drugs.

[AdamA]

10+ cups of coffee (do not insult me by asking if it's decaf).

[Pres]

Vitamin D3 (7000 IU/day)
CoQ10 (100 mg/day)
Omega 3 fish oil caps (hopefully not from the Gulf of Mexico or anywhere near Fukushima)
A probiotic

Not currently taking, but might consider: vitamin C (which source or form?), magnesium, K2, L-arginine, misc B vitamins, a multi (never found one that I trusted; intrigued by Vimmortal but the high vitamin A contents makes me hesitate)

[Reub]

Pre-Fukushima fish oil, huh? It sure sounds like a new collectible to me!

[AdamA]

Not currently taking, but might consider: vitamin C

Why?  Do you have scurvy?

[Pres]

Not currently taking, but might consider: vitamin C

Why?  Do you have scurvy?

Good question. I'm no expert, but here's my reasoning:

I suspect our need for vitamin C may be greatly underestimated.

Not having bone problems doesn't mean you have enough vitamin D. (high levels are associated with lower cancer risk, etc.)
Similarly, not having scurvy may not necessarily mean your body has enough vitamin C for optimal health.

Nearly all animals produce their own vitamin C, and they procedure more when they're stressed. From wikipedia: "An adult goat, a typical example of a vitamin C-producing animal, will manufacture more than 13,000 mg of vitamin C per day in normal health and the biosynthesis will increase "manyfold under stress".[21] Trauma or injury has also been demonstrated to use up large quantities of vitamin C in humans.[22]"

Man is different: we don't synthesize our own vitamin C, but depend entirely on our diet for it. Now, I haven't seen many people eat more oranges because they're stressed... And if our needs are no bigger than those of a goat (they may be bigger) there's no way we can get enough through diet unless we take supplements. Until I can switch to a less stressful life, this might be one of the ways I could try to limit damage.

Also, it's vital for the production of collagen and who wants to look old faster than necessary?


(some reasons why I am careful with it: while vitamin C supplements are relatively harmless and the excess is excreted via urine, I heard they may lower magnesium levels - and mine are probably already on the low side; I also read somewhere they can worsen arthritis, not currently a problem for me)

[AdamA]

I dunno...I'm not all that impressed with the vitamin literature...it's mostly biochemical/physiologic theory that has never been validated in a credible way.

[Lone Wolf]

I dunno...I'm not all that impressed with the vitamin literature...it's mostly biochemical/physiologic theory that has never been validated in a credible way.

FWIW, I found this article on Vitamin D in Health and Disease from the Clinical Journal of the American Society of Nephrology to be a great overview for D3.

I find D3 along with a multi-vitamin to be very cost-effective "nutritional insurance" but I completely understand where your skepticism is coming from.

[AdamA]

I find D3 along with a multi-vitamin to be very cost-effective "nutritional insurance" but I completely understand where your skepticism is coming from.

Yeah, I am probably overly skeptical.  That article is a good review of Vitamin D's role in human physiology, but not a clinical trial. 

It's a bit like an economic prediction...what seems logical often turns out to be incorrect. 

[Wonk]

Worth noting Vitamin C's half life is 30 minutes.  If you're interested in supplementing, make sure you don't end up with expensive urine.

[Pres]

Worth noting Vitamin C's half life is 30 minutes.  If you're interested in supplementing, make sure you don't end up with expensive urine.

That's why I recently bought a timed-release vitamin C supplement.

But I didn't read the fine print. Turns out it's Calcium ascorbate. I'm wary of supplementing with calcium so I'm not going to use it. Back to the drawing board.

[Gumby]

I used to take a multi-vitamin, omega-3, magnesium, calcium, zinc, etc.

But, now I don't.

I'm now convinced that supplements are an unnecessary expense ratio on life for most people.

Vitamin supplements are largely a waste of money, says professor

The vitamin/supplements industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. I suspect there's a lot of research funded by supplement manufacturers that make us believe we need supplements. But the truth is that most of these supplements are just passing through your urine:

Vitamins ineffective: researchers

Here is the 11-year study, completed in 2010, that puts doubt on the effectiveness of vitamins and supplements:

American Journal of Epidemiology: Multivitamin Use and the Risk of Mortality and Cancer Incidence

Vitamins seem to be an enormous waste of money for something that is completely unproven.

[Lone Wolf]

One thing I would mention is that omega-3 is not a "vitamin" but rather an essential fatty acid.  We tend to get much, much more omega-6 in our diets than omega-3 and the dangers of such an imbalance are very well-documented.

As for the multivitamin, I'd actually agree that I'm unlikely to "need" it.  While I doubt that my diet is deficient in any particular set of minerals, here's where I disagree with you: a multi-vitamin is extremely inexpensive.  $30 a year just isn't a major indulgence for a little nutritional insurance.  (I'd acknowledge that this is very much an unconvincing "Pascal's Wager" style of reasoning, though, and I very much doubt there's a lot of harm in skipping a multi if you have a really solid diet.)

[MediumTex]

I occasionally hear stories about vitamins and other supplements having no value whatsoever, and I always think about how domestic animals are frequently subject to very regimented vitamin and supplement dosing and I wonder if there is no value to them why feeding them to animals occurs at all (given how tight margins are in many domestic animal operations).

Here is an example of a domestic animal vitamin and supplement dosing guide:

http://www.dsm.com/en_US/downloads/dnps ... tation.pdf

One possibility (and I am not suggesting this is the case, but it's worth discussing) is that human doctors basically work from a sickness paradigm, and thus simply can't grasp the value of practices and substances that prevent sickness in subtle ways (rather than treating it once it presents), whereas large animal veterinarians work more from a bottom line perspective of anything that keeps the animals healthy is worth doing.

As far-fetched as this idea sounds, it's hard to reconcile a society where the animals are frequently a lot healthier than the people without some kind of explanation that comes back to the human healthcare providers doing something wrong.

We should remember, too, that it has been only relatively recently (probably the last 100 years or so) that modern medicine has been able to claim with a straight face that it has saved more people than it has killed.  

Personally, I have come to the realization that most doctors really don't know that much about how NOT to get sick in the first place.  It's a bit like asking a lawyer how to prevent a dispute from turning into a lawsuit--it shouldn't be a surprise if the answer you get isn't all that nuanced or helpful.  What you are asking them about is simply outside their training and experience.

If you asked a doctor what he thought about someone who had never been to a doctor and never been sick, I'll bet he would say something like: "Why would I have any reason to think about a person like that at all?"

[AdamA]

One possibility (and I am not suggesting this is the case, but it's worth discussing) is that human doctors basically work from a sickness paradigm, and thus simply can't grasp the value of practices and substances that prevent sickness in subtle ways (rather than treating it once it presents).

I agree with this, and would add that many of the so-called preventative health measures that we have implemented in the US may be turning out to be more harmful than they are helpful (PSA screening, mammogrphy, cholesterol screening, etc). 

The thing is, I can't figure out where vitamin supplements fit into this.  Are they just a benign money maker (a placebo-based scam) for those selling them, or are they actually helpful?  I haven't seen evidence to suggest the latter, but agree with your observation that modern medicine often (but not always) tends to focus on sickness more so than prevention (although we have gotten some things right...like vaccinations).

We should remember, too, that it has been only relatively recently (probably the last 100 years or so) that modern medicine has been able to claim with a straight face that it has saved more people than it has killed. 

If only more people were aware of this.  Medicine is marketed to the general public in such a way as to suggest that many many more "magic bullet" cures exist than actually do.  This seems to have been widely accepted.  Again, are vitamins/nutritional supplements more of the same medical-industrial shenangians, or, do they represent a valid alternative in the form of prevention?

[6 Iron]

Personally, I take a multivitamin, and a fish oil supplement. Now with regard to the medical establishment and supplements, I would say that while there is no doubt that medical schools spend the vast majority of their time teaching about disease, it is because there is no great mystery to increasing your chances of healthy life, starting with the principle, "in all things, moderation".

Maintain a proper weight, with a well balanced diet.
Do not smoke.
Exercise regularly.
Get adequate sleep.
Be aware of diseases in first degree relatives; you should have a primary care doctor, particularly if you are over 40.

There is no supplement that can replace these. And, there are no guarantees in life as far as health is concerned.

[MediumTex]

Now with regard to the medical establishment and supplements, I would say that while there is no doubt that medical schools spend the vast majority of their time teaching about disease, it is because there is no great mystery to increasing your chances of healthy life, starting with the principle, "in all things, moderation".

That reminds me of a Chinese proverb I once read that went something like this:

"The greatest doctor in the world is unknown because his patients are never sick."

[Gumby]

I occasionally hear stories about vitamins and other supplements having no value whatsoever, and I always think about how domestic animals are frequently subject to very regimented vitamin and supplement dosing and I wonder if there is no value to them why feeding them to animals occurs at all (given how tight margins are in many domestic animal operations).

Here is an example of a domestic animal vitamin and supplement dosing guide:

http://www.dsm.com/en_US/downloads/dnps ... tation.pdf

Animals are typically fed a very limited diet (grain, grain and more grain). So, it's understandable that animals on a very, very cheap/limited diet would need supplementation in order to thrive. Most humans have the ability to nourish themselves with a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, fish, proteins. Animal supplements are often used as a broad-spectrum program to eliminate deficiencies (both primary and secondary) often exacerbated by the cheap feeding program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_ ... ry_farming

Here's a telling quote from that Wikipedia page:

The first animals to be factory farmed were chickens. The discovery of vitamins and their role in animal nutrition, in the first two decades of the twentieth century, led to vitamin supplements, which allowed chickens to be raised indoors.
Source: Wikipedia: Factory farming

I would also point out that many farms will give their livestock way too many antibiotics simply to eliminate the chance of disease. If we applied that logic to humans, we would all be a lot worse off.

I agree that supplementation is good for those with deficiencies (elderly, immuno-compromised, pregnant, medical issues, etc.). But, for most healthy adults — with a relatively healthy diet — I'm not sure anyone really knows if it does any good.

[Pres]

The vitamin/supplements industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. I suspect there's a lot of research funded by supplement manufacturers that make us believe we need supplements.

This is probably also true for the pharmaceutical industry. Probably even more, because that's where the big money is. (they create patentable products) The pharma industry has the means to fund a lot of research and researchers depend on them for funding... This may affect the results: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 173713.htm

Finding funding for the "gold standard" studies that some demand as proof of the benefits of vitamins is next to impossible. But that doesn't make vitamins worthless. There's a lot of scientific knowledge about them and many small studies are going on all the time.

Here is the 11-year study, completed in 2010, that puts doubt on the effectiveness of vitamins and supplements

Not so fast.

This refers to a study that didn't track "vitamin users" in general, but specifically multivitamin users.  
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/e ... aje.kwq447

I have yet to see a multivitamin that I'd want to take. Many contain very high doses of things that I'm wary of. Bioavailability is said to often be bad. Others contain doses that are so low they're useless (400 UI D3, 50mg C, etc.) and then it's only logical that they don't offer any advantage.

It would be more interesting to look at people who are (for example) taking specifically taking a certain vitamin in a pretty solid dose, for example enough vitamin D3 to give them blood levels of 50-70 ng/mL. That would make more sense. Or 10g of vitamin C.

Vitamins seem to be an enormous waste of money for something that is completely unproven.

Careful, you wouldn't want to make any generalisations.

I don't think it's a good idea to take random supplements. I'm only taking certain ones after reading about what science knows and suspects about them. One that seems worth looking at is vitamin D.

In pubmed there are at the time of writing 39786 results when I seek on "Vitamin D":
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... min%20d%22

And that's only about vitamin D. They've found many interesting associations of between vitamin D levels and risk for several major diseases:
(copy-pasting from an article, don't shoot me if the details aren't correct; no time to verify individual studies at this time, but I've looked up several in the past and I was impressed)

Breast cancer: Women with vitamin D blood serum levels less than 50 nmol/mL are eight times more likely to develop an aggressive form of breast cancer.

Colon cancer: Men and women with the highest vitamin D levels cut their colon cancer risk by 40 percent.

Heart Disease & Stroke: Men and women with low vitamin D double their heart attack or stroke risk.

Cognitive decline: Older women with low vitamin D are twice as likely to suffer cognitive impairment.

Diabetes: A whopping 91 percent of diabetics have low levels of vitamin D in their blood. Plus, the less vitamin D in their blood, the greater their blood sugar problems.

That's reason enough for me to watch my levels!

Ideally there would be major study so thorough that it might be considered absolute proof of the usefulness of vitamin D supplementation. But as this Financial Times article explains, chances are low that anyone will fund that ever:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/11180df8-beaa ... z1JLsdr998

Science probably won't have absolute proof of the usefulness of all vitamins in my lifetime. I'm can't afford to wait that long, so I take calculated risks by taking doses of specific things that show big promises and low risks, and are cheap. I'm watching my vitamin D levels and calcium levels, so far so good.