Apple charger

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:31 am

Government works to reduce costs to consumers and help eliminate waste. How many of you have a box full of useless charger cables at home just waiting to be dumped in the nearest landfill?

Apple could be forced to scrap its iPhone chargers under EU plans to make a universal phone charger law.

Under the proposals, mobile phone manufacturers would have to make devices compatible with the universal charger which would hit companies like Apple who have their own design.

Lawmakers in the European Parliament's consumer protection committee said radio equipment devices and their accessories should be "interoperable" to reduce costs to consumers.

"We urge member states and manufacturers finally to introduce a universal charger, to put an end to cable chaos for mobile phones and tablet computers", said German Member of European Parliament (MEP) Barbara Weiler in a statement.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:35 am

I like the spirit of the law (reducing costs) but I think it doesn't make sense in terms of fostering technology. Apple didn't change their charger to make people buy more cords (they would have preferred not to abandon all the products that were built for the ecosystem of their 1st gen charger). Apple had to change their charger design because devices were getting thinner every year. The 1st gen charger would have covered up the speakers of the iPhone 5. And secondly, the iPhone charger needs to be able to transfer large amounts if data while not interfering with the product design. iPhone owners don't really want their devices to be restricted in their design just to save a few bucks.

Similarly, if governments forced all laptop manufactures to standardize laptop chargers, we would never have had advances like the MagSafe adapter which uses a quick-release magnet to safely detach the cord from your laptop when you accidentally trip over your cord.

If government forces a new charger, it will probably hold back the advancement of device technology and the product design.

Post by **dualstow** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:00 am

I agree with everything Gumby said.
I bought one charger for my iPod Touch because it didn't come with one. Its USB socket (port, whatever) takes the same Apple cords that my Mac mini takes, and I love it. The cords wear out, but the charging unit with its retractable plug is fine.

I do have an LG dumbphone with a separate charger, but that is going to be replaced by an iPhone. Hey, maybe the solution is for every charger to switch to Apple's design.
(j/k)

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:09 am

Gumby is absolutely right. If you look at the Lightning cable, it's a perfect example of what he said. Apple didn't develop it just to give the finger to people with million of Micro USB chargers; it was to address a variety of deficiencies with Micro USB cables:

1. They're flimsy
2. They're not reversible; if you insert them the wrong way, you can easily break them
3. They can't transmit enough power to charge an iPad while the screen is on

Now, the fact that they have an embedded anti-copying chip was a dick move IMHO. But the fundamental reason for their existence is because of technical limitations with the government-adopted standard.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:14 am

I agree...however, as I see it...

Standardization brings cost savings and efficiency, yet innovation and change are good. How does one blend the two together? Sometimes the free market can bring a lot of innovation, but at the cost of frustration and waste.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:21 am

Another drawback to the market is that it's decisions are based almost entirely on the short term and there is always a dollar sign attached. That is a particularly dangerous combination because many of our problems develop over the long term and require planning above and beyond the immediate quarters bottom line. Companies and consumers don't have a tendency to think in this manner, nor do they factor in the environmental externalities of their efficient market decisions.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:47 am

Simonjester wrote:

will my government mandated charger be compatible with my government built car? i would like to be able to charge my phone while pushing my car back and forth to work

I think the mistake that you are making is that you are thinking at the extremes. You are saying that a mixed economy is not possible, while I am arguing that it could yield the best possible economic outcomes. No one is arguing for communism here.

Simonjester wrote:
but a soon as "the gov" sticks its nose in any one little part of the device then innovation stops, unless phone makers can lobby to change the rules which is bound to be expensive as hell.. If the mandated charger puts out limited power, batteries cant be updated if it limits transfer speed (usb) then up load and down load programs cant be improved, if its thick then thinner phones cant be built, it just throws the whole innovation process into a mess for what gain? to keep people that cant keep their cables untangled from having cable stress? to reduce potential for quality cause cheaper is so much better than better? i just don't see any savings. for anybody..

Post by **MediumTex** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:49 am

The Apple chargers are actually quite advanced devices.

I read a review of many different wall charger/converters and the Apple chargers deliver very clean power to the devices they power.

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:22 pm

Pointedstick wrote: If you look at the Lightning cable, it's a perfect example of what he said. Apple didn't develop it just to give the finger to people with million of Micro USB chargers; it was to address a variety of deficiencies with Micro USB cables:

From my experience in the Apple accessories business, that's not completely true.

Yes, Apple makes high-quality proprietary connectors that work well in thin products. But remember, they were using the larger 30-pin connector in the iPhone for years after micro-USB came out (a much smaller, cheaper, universal solution) and when they did change they built their own proprietary connector again. What many people don't realize is that Apple holds a monopoly on all their connector production and charges a hefty licensing fee for any product that wants to connect to an Apple device. Anything that passes data to an iPhone via the connector includes a $4 licensing fee paid to Apple per device. Just a charger (with no data) has a $2 fee. So factoring in sales margins, the aftermarket accessories that include Apple connectors are generally $10-$20 more expensive to customers than they would be with standard USB connectors. Apple has thus-far refused to license the mag-safe connectors, keeping inexpensive replacements off the market altogether.

Other companies like Motorola and Dell have also been playing this game for a while, including authenticating resistors in their charging connectors to squeeze licensing fees out of aftermarket accessory companies. Whether or not the government has the right to end that practice is one thing, but I have no doubt that standardization would be a net cost benefit to the consumer in this circumstance.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:37 pm

Tyler wrote:they were using the larger 30-pin connector in the iPhone for years after micro-USB came out (a much smaller, cheaper, universal solution) and when they did change they built their own proprietary connector again.

True, but micro-USB is inferior to what Apple designed...

Andreas Odegard wrote:There seems to be quite a lot of confusion out there as to why Apple introduced the Lightning connector. The most common explanation is that the company is greedy. I’m not a big fan of Apple, I think the company is greedy, and I don’t particularly like having to buy new accessories. There are, however, a ton of reasons for why Apple did what it did. Read on to see why it changed connectors to begin with, and why it didn’t go with microUSB...The simple truth is that there is no way Apple could have gone with microUSB, because microUSB is shit. There’s no better word for it.

Source: http://www.pocketables.com/2012/12/hard ... ector.html

Read more: http://www.pocketables.com/2012/12/hard ... ector.html

Many iPhone owners don't want a sh*tty "cheaper, universal solution" — they want a superior solution that advances the technology. Or as Steve would say...

Steve Jobs wrote:"A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be."

Source: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2752-a-g ... e-the-puck

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:42 pm

Gumby wrote:
True, but micro-USB is inferior to what they built...

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that Apple also has a huge business model built around controlling access to their products that goes beyond the quality of the connector. Even if a new high-quality USB standard came out tomorrow, Apple won't be signing up voluntarily.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:47 pm

Tyler wrote:
Gumby wrote:
True, but micro-USB is inferior to what they built...

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that Apple also has a huge business model built around controlling access to their products that goes beyond the quality of the connector. Even if a new high-quality USB standard came out tomorrow, Apple won't be signing up voluntarily.

Agreed. And I imagine Apple would sit down and try to design something better to keep their game going. Shareholders love that about Apple. Some consumers like that too. Some don't. But, without such advancement, technology does not easily improve. And new standards come about when people innovate.

My general point is that Apple is free to embrace or promote a standard (as they have done so with other products, such as the iMac, which was one of the early PCs to completely ditch older connectivity in favor of USB standards) but they recognize that they can advance the technology of their products by simply outdoing the standard and making money in the process.

Makes me think we'd probably still all have traditional Blackberrys if governments tried to standardize technology (thus preventing innovation).

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:54 pm

Tyler wrote:
Gumby wrote:
True, but micro-USB is inferior to what they built...

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that Apple also has a huge business model built around controlling access to their products that goes beyond the quality of the connector. Even if a new USB standard came out tomorrow that was far superior to the Apple connector, Apple won't be signing up voluntarily.

Business stifling or delaying implementation of innovation?

Look, I'm not saying that the government should stick its nose into every last business decision, but standardization of certain things does benefit the consumer in many ways. Addressing the charger issue seems reasonable to me.

Here's another one, government CAFE standards as well as automobile safety standards. Industry always resists them and says it is impossible to comply and that they don't have the technology, yet they always figure out a way. If nothing else, this does show government pushing industry to speed up the pace of innovation.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:59 pm

Gumby wrote:
Tyler wrote:
Gumby wrote:
True, but micro-USB is inferior to what they built...

Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that Apple also has a huge business model built around controlling access to their products that goes beyond the quality of the connector. Even if a new high-quality USB standard came out tomorrow, Apple won't be signing up voluntarily.
Agreed. And I imagine Apple would sit down and try to design something better to keep their game going. Shareholders love that about Apple. Some consumers like that too. Some don't. But, without such advancement, technology does not easily improve. And new standards come about when people innovate.

My general point is that Apple is free to embrace or promote a standard (as they have done so with other products, such as the iMac, which was one of the early PCs to completely ditch older connectivity in favor of USB standards) but they recognize that they can advance the technology of their products by simply outdoing the standard and making money in the process.

Makes me think we'd probably still all have traditional Blackberrys if governments tried to standardize technology (thus preventing innovation).

Again gumby, you are thinking at the extremes. The government is not getting into standardization of devices. That would be overreach in my opinion. They are talking about connectors. Big difference. Thinking at the extremes is totally irrational. BALANCE...just because eating some vegetables is healthier than eating none, doesn't mean eating only vegetables is the healthiest option. Sometimes I think this is how you guys think when it comes to government and the private market.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:00 pm

doodle wrote:I'm not saying that the government should stick its nose into every last business decision, but standardization of certain things does benefit the consumer in many ways. Addressing the charger issue seems reasonable to me.

I disagree. It would result in a sh*tty product because the best competing standard (microUSB) is inferior to their new connector:

See: http://www.pocketables.com/2012/12/hard ... ector.html

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:03 pm

And, please, Doodle. I'm not against standardization. For example, even Apple supports the use of Standardization for situations where it makes sense:

See: http://gizmodo.com/5350976/giz-explains ... le-and-you

But a company that makes products we voluntarily purchase should not be forced to adhere to a standard. That's just crazy.

Andreas Odegard wrote:Quantitatively speaking, it’s also hard to justify calling microUSB a “standard”?. I don’t know about anyone else, but I generally see more Apple 30 pin accessories than I do microUSB ones. Calling something a standard because it’s used by several companies is frankly pointless if it’s being changed more often than, is inferior to, and is used in fewer devices than a proprietary connector. Square wheels on a car is a dumb idea no matter how many companies agree to make it the standard.

I would love a truly standard connector, one that works with all brands, Apple included, but there’s nothing on the market today that I would like to see in that role. MicroUSB is certainly very far from it, in my opinion being a massive step back from the more durable miniUSB connectors. If using proprietary connectors is the only way to get a connector that isn’t completely backwards, then that’s the way it will have to be.

Source: http://www.pocketables.com/2012/12/hard ... ector.html

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:12 pm

Gumby wrote: Makes me think we'd probably still all have traditional Blackberrys if governments tried to standardize technology (thus preventing innovation).

Regarding innovation, one of the side effects of the licensing arrangement with Apple connectors is that they effectively have veto power over any product that wants to connect to an Apple device. You must apply for approval, and they often refuse to supply them (with no explanation) even if you're willing to pay. One example is that they generally refuse to authorize attachable input devices for iPads, as while consumers may find them helpful it would imply that the Apple interface is deficient in some way. So Apple also stifles innovation if it is not in their own financial interests.

For the record, I'm generally against excessive government regulation of things like this and greatly appreciate how Apple pushes technology boundaries. I love my iPhone and iPad. I just have first-hand experience with the Apple marketing machine and have seen behind the curtain a little. They push technology boundaries not simply to (as they would market it) "delight our customers with superior products" but also to patent the crap out of them and generate huge unseen industry revenue streams that they alone can control. More power to 'em. The quality of the products speaks for itself. But they're as capitalist as the next guy, and the fawning media coverage irks me sometimes.

doodle · Post by **doodle** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:33 pm

Regarding innovation, one of the side effects of the licensing arrangement with Apple connectors is that they effectively have veto power over any product that wants to connect to an Apple device. You must apply for approval, and they often refuse to supply them (with no explanation) even if you're willing to pay. One example is that they generally refuse to authorize attachable input devices for iPads, as while consumers may find them helpful it would imply that the Apple interface is deficient in some way. So Apple also stifles innovation if it is not in their own financial interests.

Curious, how do libertarian minded folks feel about antitrust / monopoly laws? What about corporate oligopolies...like if several large companies decided to collude together to raise prices and gouge consumers, or to buy out and dismantle competing businesses?

I know that in your eyes government is currently the oppressive 800 pound gorilla, but do you think that if government were taken out of the picture other power structures that are possible less beneficent wouldn't quickly fill the power vacuum? History seems to suggest that that is exactly what would happen.

Post by **dualstow** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:10 pm

Tyler wrote: Regarding innovation, one of the side effects of the licensing arrangement with Apple connectors is that they effectively have veto power over any product that wants to connect to an Apple device. You must apply for approval, and they often refuse to supply them (with no explanation) even if you're willing to pay. One example is that they generally refuse to authorize attachable input devices for iPads, as while consumers may find them helpful it would imply that the Apple interface is deficient in some way.

Naive question from a non-techy:
If it's just a peripheral, how does Apple stop an unauthorized product that is engineered to connect to an Apple device? Is there some permission that needs to be unlocked?

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:34 pm

dualstow wrote: Naive question from a non-techy:
If it's just a peripheral, how does Apple stop an unauthorized product that is engineered to connect to an Apple device? Is there some permission that needs to be unlocked?

First, they control exclusive production of their proprietary connectors (lightning, MagSafe, 30-pin). So just getting one (legally) requires their blessing.

Second, for companies that knock off the connectors or lapse on their licensing fees, there is software authentication involved. I've owned a car dock that, a few years later, started giving me errors on my iPhone that it was no longer an "authorized iPhone accessory".

Post by **dualstow** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:05 pm

I see. Interesting, thank you!

Pointedstick · Post by **Pointedstick** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:09 pm

There's hardware authentication in the cable itself too.

Post by **dualstow** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:35 pm

Pointedstick wrote: There's hardware authentication in the cable itself too.

Wow! is the NSA in there?

Post by **dualstow** » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:10 am

I just got an ad from NativeUnion (I have their Pop phone) touting their JUMP cable on quickstarter. I assume that they got some kind of licensing from Apple or they'd be wasting their time. Should I also assume that it has copy protection, hardware authentication etc built in?

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