California set to raise minimum wage again

[RuralEngineer]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... =yahoo_itp

Workers in California would be paid at least $10 an hour in 2016 under a bill passed by the legislature Thursday, a measure likely to make the state the first to guarantee such a high minimum wage.

Our personal economic Petri dish, California, is getting ready to tighten the thumb screws on their economy a little bit more.

Personally I'm disappointed.  Why stop at $10?  That's not a livable wage.  They should set the minimum wage at $25 per hour to finally win the war on poverty and bask in the warm glow of economic prosperity.

[Libertarian666]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... =yahoo_itp

Workers in California would be paid at least $10 an hour in 2016 under a bill passed by the legislature Thursday, a measure likely to make the state the first to guarantee such a high minimum wage.

Our personal economic Petri dish, California, is getting ready to tighten the thumb screws on their economy a little bit more.

Personally I'm disappointed.  Why stop at $10?  That's not a livable wage.  They should set the minimum wage at $25 per hour to finally win the war on poverty and bask in the warm glow of economic prosperity.

How about $1000? Everyone would be a millionaire very shortly!

[Pointedstick]

If they go to $40 they could structurally unemploy greatly benefit all the knowledge workers in silicon valley!

[Kshartle]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... =yahoo_itp

Workers in California would be paid at least $10 an hour in 2016 under a bill passed by the legislature Thursday, a measure likely to make the state the first to guarantee such a high minimum wage.

Our personal economic Petri dish, California, is getting ready to tighten the thumb screws on their economy a little bit more.

Personally I'm disappointed.  Why stop at $10?  That's not a livable wage.  They should set the minimum wage at $25 per hour to finally win the war on poverty and bask in the warm glow of economic prosperity.

How about $1000? Everyone would be a millionaire very shortly!

I wonder if you can run for governor with this as your only reform and win. Ahhhh democracy, a suggestion box for slaves. I'm sure Marx would approve of this potential victory for workers.

[Gumby]

I wonder if you can run for governor with this as your only reform and win. Ahhhh democracy, a suggestion box for slaves. I'm sure Marx would approve of this potential victory for workers.

I assume, despite all your protests and disapproval, that you still take part in labor and democracy, and have a relatively enjoyable life. And I'm guessing you have a job and accept a paycheck in coercive US Dollars as well, no? Just an observation, but it seems like you enjoy complaining about society a lot.

[Kshartle]

I wonder if you can run for governor with this as your only reform and win. Ahhhh democracy, a suggestion box for slaves. I'm sure Marx would approve of this potential victory for workers.

I assume, despite all your protests and disapproval, that you still take part in labor and democracy, and have a relatively enjoyable life. And I'm guessing you have a job and accept a paycheck in coercive US Dollars as well, no? Just an observation, but it seems like you enjoy complaining about society a lot.

I take place in the democracy of the marketplace and let my dollars do my voting. I don't pretend I can pick out the guys who will run society how it should be with threats of violence.

[Mdraf]

A vague acquaintance of mine ran for Comptroller of the City of Los Angeles.  His election platform was "if I am elected I will ensure the city buys all its vehicles from Los Angeles dealers only". He won. You can all imagine what this did for vehicle prices.

[Kshartle]

The surprising thing is that politicians don't make even more outlandish promises. You can probably get elected in Cali if you can just have a pretty clean background and make insane promises. How about all public waterfountains spweing koolaid?

Since the voters can't hold them responsible you might as well promise them everything.

[doodle]

This is a positive development.....it will spur innovation and the move towards increased automation of boring and repetitive low skilled labor eventually bringing us closer to a full on leisure society.

[Pointedstick]

This is a positive development.....it will spur innovation and the move towards increased automation of boring and repetitive low skilled labor eventually bringing us closer to a full on leisure society.

Now California's generous welfare programs make perfect sense. 10% of the population unemploys the other 90% and funds their leisure activities. It's genius! Now if only there were a way to prevent the 10% from leaving...

[Kshartle]

This is a positive development.....it will spur innovation and the move towards increased automation of boring and repetitive low skilled labor eventually bringing us closer to a full on leisure society.

Now California's generous welfare programs make perfect sense. 10% of the population unemploys the other 90% and funds their leisure activities. It's genius! Now if only there were a way to prevent the 10% from leaving...

This is backwards. 10% of the population isn't unemploying anyone. The government is. If the government declares labor has to be more expensive than automation, businessmen will choose automation.

Business owners who employ min wage workers will be hurt by this. Some will automate, some will try to raise prices to offset although this is a bad solution (they are already trying to maximize profits at current prices) some will have to fire a portion of workers and cut back on production, some will just go out of business.

The only people benefitting here are any business that helps replace workers with automation on politicians who buy votes by tricking people.

[Pointedstick]

This is backwards. 10% of the population isn't unemploying anyone. The government is. If the government declares labor has to be more expensive than automation, businessmen will choose automation.

Haven't we been over this? If there were no minimum wage and I invented a burger flipping machine that could flip burgers for the price of $0.50/hour, I've just unemployed all the burger flippers who aren't willing to offer their services at $0.49/hour. No government required.

[Kshartle]

This is backwards. 10% of the population isn't unemploying anyone. The government is. If the government declares labor has to be more expensive than automation, businessmen will choose automation.

Haven't we been over this? If there were no minimum wage and I invented a burger flipping machine that could flip burgers for the price of $0.50/hour, I've just unemployed all the burger flippers who aren't willing to offer their services at $0.49/hour. No government required.

I thought this thread was about California raising the min wage. I missed the transistion. It happens.

[Pointedstick]

I thought this thread was about California raising the min wage. I missed the transistion. It happens.

I'll take responsibility for the thread derailment, but I was just illustrating an example of how structural unemployment could come to pass even absent government.

[doodle]

This is backwards. 10% of the population isn't unemploying anyone. The government is. If the government declares labor has to be more expensive than automation, businessmen will choose automation.

Haven't we been over this? If there were no minimum wage and I invented a burger flipping machine that could flip burgers for the price of $0.50/hour, I've just unemployed all the burger flippers who aren't willing to offer their services at $0.49/hour. No government required.

What is the problem with this? Is flipping burgers all day really that redeeming an activity that we should try to preserve it for future generations? What about back breaking field labor picking strawberries for 10 hours a day with herniated disks in your back? Sometimes you anarcho-capitalists sound like a bunch of flagellants as if painful toil had some spiritually redeeming properties.

Or maybe it is somewhat closer to this:


Automation of many processes was temporarily delayed by moving manufacturing overseas. Now that Chinese workers are demanding higher wages and automation costs have come down, the process has restarted. I for one support it. I would rather see people engaged in useless work making something that required at least a bit of creativity (art, music, entertainment), rather than engaged in useless work (because machines could eliminate their jobs) that was mind numbingly boring.

[Kshartle]

Sometimes you anarcho-capitalists sound like a bunch of flagellants as if painful toil had some spiritually redeeming properties.

Is this a joke? Anarcho-capitalists would never advocate prevention of work-saving technology. Statist socialists advocate intervention in the economy.

If this was meant to be sarcastic I missed it.

[Kshartle]

Or maybe it is somewhat closer to this:

I would like to point out this is a government built series of buildings.

[Pointedstick]

What is the problem with this? Is flipping burgers all day really that redeeming an activity that we should try to preserve it for future generations? What about back breaking field labor picking strawberries for 10 hours a day with herniated disks in your back?

Because in order to live in our present society, survival is determined by purchasing power, which is determined either by charity or a wage*. Someone who can't earn a wage is reliant on charity until they can earn a wage--if they're ever able to. Like it or not, most people enjoy having something productive to do. Even if it's not that useful, the human mind really seems to need some kind of productive activity to avoid becoming depressed or sinking into hedonistic debauchery. If we automate away all the crappy jobs, on one hand this is great because now nobody has to do crappy jobs! But on the other hand, all people formerly doing those crappy jobs who lack the ability to rise much farther than that need to do something. And we as a society seem to not have really figured out what that is yet. We have welfare, and we have prison, but I'd argue that neither of those represent very good solutions to the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for robots to do the worst labor. But I'd also like to avoid dispossessed workers whose IQ falls on the left-hand side of the bell curve winding up in prison, on the dole, or at our doors with rifles and torches.

*Technically there's also investment returns and direct theft, but let's ignore those for now.

[Kshartle]

the human mind really seems to need some kind of productive activity to avoid becoming depressed or sinking into hedonistic debauchery.

If given the choice I'll take the latter.

[doodle]

What is the problem with this? Is flipping burgers all day really that redeeming an activity that we should try to preserve it for future generations? What about back breaking field labor picking strawberries for 10 hours a day with herniated disks in your back?

Because in order to live in our present society, survival is determined by purchasing power, which is determined either by charity or a wage*. Someone who can't earn a wage is reliant on charity until they can earn a wage--if they're ever able to. Like it or not, most people enjoy having something productive to do. Even if it's not that useful, the human mind really seems to need some kind of productive activity to avoid becoming depressed or sinking into hedonistic debauchery. If we automate away all the crappy jobs, on one hand this is great because now nobody has to do crappy jobs! But on the other hand, all people formerly doing those crappy jobs who lack the ability to rise much farther than that need to do something. And we as a society seem to not have really figured out what that is yet. We have welfare, and we have prison, but I'd argue that neither of those represent very good solutions to the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for robots to do the worst labor. But I'd also like to avoid dispossessed workers whose IQ falls on the left-hand side of the bell curve winding up in prison, on the dole, or at our doors with rifles and torches.

*Technically there's also investment returns and direct theft, but let's ignore those for now.

Whether a person is flipping burgers instead of a machine or learning how to play chopsticks on the piano they are doing something that is essentially worthless to society. However, what would you rather be doing with your time...something worthless and backbreaking and boring...or something that is more interesting and redeeming? I can't help it that the capitalist system contains a fundamental flaw regarding production and wages....but it is stupid to confine humans to back breaking labor because the system is poorly designed.

Or maybe it is somewhat closer to this:

I would like to point out this is a government built series of buildings.

Kshartle, you have a hang up with the idea of "government".....groups of people abuse other people...end of story. What are you going to do, ban group associations? That is all a modern government is...a big band of people grouped around a fictitious national identity.

In addition, humans are a wickedly destructive species. Look at the mass extinctions of animal species that closely follow our arrival in different parts of the world. We are so destructive that we don't even confine our destruction to animals that don't look like us, but rather divide up our own species into different colors, religions, languages, and then continue to slaughter.

Constantly projecting all of society's evils on government is a cop out.

[Kshartle]

What is the problem with this? Is flipping burgers all day really that redeeming an activity that we should try to preserve it for future generations? What about back breaking field labor picking strawberries for 10 hours a day with herniated disks in your back?

Because in order to live in our present society, survival is determined by purchasing power, which is determined either by charity or a wage*. Someone who can't earn a wage is reliant on charity until they can earn a wage--if they're ever able to. Like it or not, most people enjoy having something productive to do. Even if it's not that useful, the human mind really seems to need some kind of productive activity to avoid becoming depressed or sinking into hedonistic debauchery. If we automate away all the crappy jobs, on one hand this is great because now nobody has to do crappy jobs! But on the other hand, all people formerly doing those crappy jobs who lack the ability to rise much farther than that need to do something. And we as a society seem to not have really figured out what that is yet. We have welfare, and we have prison, but I'd argue that neither of those represent very good solutions to the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for robots to do the worst labor. But I'd also like to avoid dispossessed workers whose IQ falls on the left-hand side of the bell curve winding up in prison, on the dole, or at our doors with rifles and torches.

*Technically there's also investment returns and direct theft, but let's ignore those for now.

Whether a person is flipping burgers instead of a machine or learning how to play chopsticks on the piano they are doing something that is essentially worthless to society. However, what would you rather be doing with your time...something worthless and backbreaking and boring...or something that is more interesting and redeeming? I can't help it that the capitalist system contains a fundamental flaw regarding production and wages....but it is stupid to confine humans to back breaking labor because the system is poorly designed.

Or maybe it is somewhat closer to this:

I would like to point out this is a government built series of buildings.

Kshartle, you have a hang up with the idea of "government".....groups of people abuse other people...end of story. What are you going to do, ban group associations? That is all a modern government is...a big band of people grouped around a fictitious national identity.

In addition, humans are a wickedly destructive species. Look at the mass extinctions of animal species that closely follow our arrival in different parts of the world. We are so destructive that we don't even confine our destruction to animals that don't look like us, but rather divide up our own species into different colors, religions, languages, and then continue to slaughter.

Constantly projecting all of society's evils on government is a cop out.

You complain about captialism and anarchy then display a government death camp. I just want to point out you have it all completely backwards.

You complain about humans being destructive and violent and how that is negative. Well I agree. Perhaps we should stop pretending that force solves problems. That's what government is. It's not just a big band of people grouped around each other like the humane society or Apple employees. It's people who band together to promise everyone they'll solve problems with the use of force. If you don't see the difference you will draw incorrect conclusions about a great many things (Capitalism/free exchange of property without coercion) leads to death and destruction or poverty or some other malarky.

[Pointedstick]

Whether a person is flipping burgers instead of a machine or learning how to play chopsticks on the piano they are doing something that is essentially worthless to society. However, what would you rather be doing with your time...something worthless and backbreaking and boring...or something that is more interesting and redeeming? I can't help it that the capitalist system contains a fundamental flaw regarding production and wages....but it is stupid to confine humans to back breaking labor because the system is poorly designed.

You correctly point out that our species is a violent one, but I think your own blind spot is that in the absence of work--even difficult or meaningless work, most people will turn out to be lazy bums. After robots do all the menial work, we're not all going to compose music, paint masterpieces, travel the world, and explore the human condition.

A whole heck of a lot of us are going to watch reality TV, masturbate to internet porn, and eat junk food until we eventually die of preventable degenerative diseases. Of all the Star Trek inventions, I think the holodeck is the biggest one whose consequences they mis-portray. As soon as someone invents one that will be the end of civilization as people live out their most debauched sexual fantasies and forget to eat and piss.

Or at least the men will. I don't know about women. Maybe they'll bank our sperm and create a harmonious all-female society.

[doodle]

Whether a person is flipping burgers instead of a machine or learning how to play chopsticks on the piano they are doing something that is essentially worthless to society. However, what would you rather be doing with your time...something worthless and backbreaking and boring...or something that is more interesting and redeeming? I can't help it that the capitalist system contains a fundamental flaw regarding production and wages....but it is stupid to confine humans to back breaking labor because the system is poorly designed.

You correctly point out that our species is a violent one, but I think your own blind spot is that in the absence of work--even difficult or meaningless work, most people will turn out to be lazy bums. After robots do all the menial work, we're not all going to compose music, paint masterpieces, travel the world, and explore the human condition.

A whole heck of a lot of us are going to watch reality TV, masturbate to internet porn, and eat junk food until we eventually die of preventable degenerative diseases. Of all the Star Trek inventions, I think the holodeck is the biggest one whose consequences they mis-portray. As soon as someone invents one that will be the end of civilization as people live out their most debauched sexual fantasies and forget to eat and piss.

Or at least the men will. I don't know about women. Maybe they'll bank our sperm and create a harmonious all-female society.

This potential problem hasn't been overlooked:

http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wils ... -RICH.html

Stage IV is a massive investment in adult education, for two reasons. (1) People can spend only so much time fucking, smoking dope, and watching TV; after a while they get bored. This is the main psychological objection to the workless society, and the answer to it is to educate people for functions more cerebral than fucking, smoking dope, watching TV, or the idiot jobs most are currently toiling at. (2) There are vast challenges and opportunities confronting us in the next three or four decades, of which the most notable are those highlighted in Tim Leary's SMI2LE slogan -- Space Migration, Intelligence Increase, Life Extension. Humanity is about to enter an entirely new evolutionary relationship to space, time, and consciousness. We will no longer be limited to one planet, to a brief, less-than-a-century lifespan, and to the stereotyped and robotic mental processes by which most people currently govern their lives. Everybody deserves the chance, if they want it, to participate in the evolutionary leap to what Leary calls "more space, more time, and more intelligence to enjoy space and time."

What I am proposing, in brief, is that the Work Ethic (find a Master to employ you for wages, or live in squalid poverty) is obsolete. A Work Esthetic will have to arise to replace this old Stone Age syndrome of the slave, the peasant, the serf, the prole, the wage-worker -- the human labor-machine who is not fully a person but, as Marx said, " a tool, an automaton." Delivered from the role of things and robots, people will learn to become fully developed persons, in the sense of the Human Potential movement. They will not seek work out of economic necessity, but out of psychological necessity -- as an outlet for their creative potential.

("Creative potential" is not a panchreston. It refers to the inborn drive to play, to tinker, to explore, and to experiment, shown by every child before his or her mental processes are stunted by authoritarian education and operant-conditioned wage-robotry.)

As Bucky Fuller says, the first thought of people, once they are delivered from wage slavery, will be, "What was it that I was so interested in as a youth, before I was told I had to earn a living?" The answer to that question, coming from millions and then billions of persons liberated from mechanical toil, will make the Renaissance look like a high school science fair or a Greenwich Village art show.

[Pointedstick]

This potential problem hasn't been overlooked:

http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wils ... -RICH.html

Stage IV is a massive investment in adult education, for two reasons. (1) People can spend only so much time fucking, smoking dope, and watching TV; after a while they get bored. This is the main psychological objection to the workless society, and the answer to it is to educate people for functions more cerebral than fucking, smoking dope, watching TV, or the idiot jobs most are currently toiling at. (2) There are vast challenges and opportunities confronting us in the next three or four decades, of which the most notable are those highlighted in Tim Leary's SMI2LE slogan -- Space Migration, Intelligence Increase, Life Extension.

It just sounds so utopian to me. For the same reason why I worry about an unemployed fast-food cook being unable to make the transition to robot programming, I worry that he will similarly be unable to contribute to the fields of Space Migration, Intelligence Increase, or Life Extension.

Education isn't a panacea. I know you u sed to be a teacher so surely you're aware of this. There are some people you just can't teach. Their home lives are too chaotic or violent, or they can't concentrate, or they prefer physical activities to mental activities. You can't pretend that this hypothetical society is going to be totally devoid of people who would really prefer to be kicking a football or climbing a cliff face or shouldering a rifle. What is society going to do for them? Futilely treat them like round pegs in square holes as the educational system tries in vain to get them interested in cerebral activities while they gaze out the window longingly?

[doodle]

Because in order to live in our present society, survival is determined by purchasing power, which is determined either by charity or a wage*. Someone who can't earn a wage is reliant on charity until they can earn a wage--if they're ever able to. Like it or not, most people enjoy having something productive to do. Even if it's not that useful, the human mind really seems to need some kind of productive activity to avoid becoming depressed or sinking into hedonistic debauchery. If we automate away all the crappy jobs, on one hand this is great because now nobody has to do crappy jobs! But on the other hand, all people formerly doing those crappy jobs who lack the ability to rise much farther than that need to do something. And we as a society seem to not have really figured out what that is yet. We have welfare, and we have prison, but I'd argue that neither of those represent very good solutions to the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for robots to do the worst labor. But I'd also like to avoid dispossessed workers whose IQ falls on the left-hand side of the bell curve winding up in prison, on the dole, or at our doors with rifles and torches.

*Technically there's also investment returns and direct theft, but let's ignore those for now.

Whether a person is flipping burgers instead of a machine or learning how to play chopsticks on the piano they are doing something that is essentially worthless to society. However, what would you rather be doing with your time...something worthless and backbreaking and boring...or something that is more interesting and redeeming? I can't help it that the capitalist system contains a fundamental flaw regarding production and wages....but it is stupid to confine humans to back breaking labor because the system is poorly designed.

I would like to point out this is a government built series of buildings.

Kshartle, you have a hang up with the idea of "government".....groups of people abuse other people...end of story. What are you going to do, ban group associations? That is all a modern government is...a big band of people grouped around a fictitious national identity.

In addition, humans are a wickedly destructive species. Look at the mass extinctions of animal species that closely follow our arrival in different parts of the world. We are so destructive that we don't even confine our destruction to animals that don't look like us, but rather divide up our own species into different colors, religions, languages, and then continue to slaughter.

Constantly projecting all of society's evils on government is a cop out.

You complain about captialism and anarchy then display a government death camp. I just want to point out you have it all completely backwards.

You complain about humans being destructive and violent and how that is negative. Well I agree. Perhaps we should stop pretending that force solves problems. That's what government is. It's not just a big band of people grouped around each other like the humane society or Apple employees. It's people who band together to promise everyone they'll solve problems with the use of force. If you don't see the difference you will draw incorrect conclusions about a great many things (Capitalism/free exchange of property without coercion) leads to death and destruction or poverty or some other malarky.

Kshartle, I don't disagree with you. I just find your position at this juncture to be hopelessly utopic. Frankly we are not ready for this transformation anymore than Russia was ready to transition from a pre-industrial society to communism overnight.

My reference to "Arbeit macht Frei" is that it seems that there are people on this board who are arguing that we must keep people toiling in crappy jobs even though we have the technology to replace them either because we aren't creative enough to get around the issue of work and earned wages or because we cant think of what to do with these people other than have them flip burgers.