Pointless jobs

[gizmo_rat]

A short article by David Graeber exploring the idea that 15hr work weeks have failed to materialise for political and moral reasons, resulting in many of us instead working "bullshit jobs"  for 50 - 60 hrs a week to keep us docile.

http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

The economist weighs in with a sort of rebuttal that new style bullshit jobs are less unpleasant and better paid than industrial jobs they replaced and that we should grateful for them before they are automated away. (Some of the comments after the article are eye opening)

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexch ... -markets-0

Its all bound up with automation / jobs guarantee / citizens dividend etc.  but comes at it from a different perspective, far less dry than economists plugging away.

[MediumTex]

I saw that article the other day and I think that it touches on things that many people would prefer not to think about.

IMHO, the healthiest approach to many jobs today (perhaps most jobs even) is to pretend that each day you are going to play a somewhat boring and tedious board game with a group of jaded players of average to below average skills, some of whom have gotten into the routine of cheating in subtle ways that they justify to themselves based upon perceived design flaws in the rules of the game.

I find that viewing "work" through this psychological lens can be a useful coping mechanism.

For anyone who is interested in the mental and social pathologies that can be generated when a group of people are engaged in a basically pointless vocational activity, check out Earl Shorris's Scenes From Corporate Life (also published under the title The Oppressed Middle).

Here is a perceptive Amazon review:

This is the best book about the modern corporate mentality; it's so accurate it's sometimes painful. Shorris mixes in hardheaded commentary about business with lengthy discussions of political philosopophy. His thesis is that the modern corporation has a good deal in common with totalitarian systems of government. While the modern business leaders and their cadres of managers and psychologists are much better intentioned and more genteel than political dictators, their impact on employees can be similarly soul-crushing. Shorris illustrates the effect of business policies with a series of fictional vignettes which will ring painfully true to anybody who has worked for a large organization. Any corporate employee who wants to get beyond dilbert-type easy sarcasm and understand what is really happening to his life should read this book.

The book is out of print, but there are plenty of used copies out there for under $1.00.

[doodle]

A short article by David Graeber exploring the idea that 15hr work weeks have failed to materialise for political and moral reasons, resulting in many of us instead working "bullshit jobs"  for 50 - 60 hrs a week to keep us docile.

Agree! Most white collar workers I know say that they put in about 2 to 3 hours a day of concentrated work and then fritter away the rest of the day.

As for pointless jobs....Id have to but lawn maintenance high on the list. Large lawns are about the stupidest thing I can imagine. They need alot of water, fertilizer, weed control....you cant eat them but you have to go out and cut and edge them every week. Maybe if you played croquet or something on it I could understand, but no one ever goes out on the things...they just sit there in the front and rear of the house sucking up resources and wasting space.

[MediumTex]

I remember you've mentioned this book before.

The Oppressed Middle: A review of Scenes from Corporate Life

Wow.

I had forgotten about that article.  That's a really good piece.

Like the book it is summarizing, the piece is almost painful to read it's so true.

Although it's certainly nice to have someone to pay you for your efforts and to be able to provide financial support for yourself and the people who depend on you, there is a sort of pathetic quality to much of what passes for "work" today.  I sometimes forget just how pathetic the mental/psychological/spiritual/social pathways many people follow in the workplace really are, and then I will get a piece of work like a nice carpet cleaning gig or something like writing the PP book with Craig, and it just hits me like a slap in the face how empty and meaningless some of the other things I do really are.

Another nice piece exploring some of these ideas is a journal article entitled "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -soulcraft).  The article was subsequently turned into a book, but the article is really all you need to read.  It's quite stimulating.

[Tortoise]

Another nice piece exploring some of these ideas is a journal article entitled "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -soulcraft).  The article was subsequently turned into a book, but the article is really all you need to read.  It's quite stimulating.

I read that book earlier this year, and I found it to be thought-provoking.

One of the big dividing lines seems to be between large and small organizations. When one works for a large organization, the manner in which one's individual contribution affects the final product can often be abstract and difficult to determine, leading to a sense of alienation and pointlessness. By contrast, when one works for a small organization or even oneself, one often wears many hats and has a more obvious, visible effect on the final product.

When you see your individual work clearly reflected in the final product, it's hard to feel like your job is pointless (unless the final product itself is pointless).

That isn't to say that working for a small organization doesn't come with its own set of drawbacks; it's just that a feeling that one's job is pointless probably isn't one of them.

[Pointedstick]

Yet there is a decent chance that "bullshit" administrative jobs are merely a halfway house between "bullshit" industrial jobs and no jobs at all. Not because of the conniving of rich interests, but because machines inevitably outmatch humans at handling bullshit without complaining.

Well that really sums it up, doesn't it?

[Tyler]

When you see your individual work clearly reflected in the final product, it's hard to feel like your job is pointless (unless the final product itself is pointless).

That's sorta where I'm at.  I've designed consumer products for a while, and always felt a great sense of pride when I would walk down the street and see someone using a product I personally designed.  The thing is, after only a year everything I spent countless hours on became obsolete.  Watching your hard work fill landfills adds up -- you soon become keenly aware of the treadmill you're running. 

I'm designing medical products now, which is better.  But I see myself getting out of the design industry eventually to work on something more meaningful (whatever that might be).

+1 to Shop Class as Soulcraft.  Very thought provoking.

[doodle]

Careful with all this "alienation" talk guys...you are coming awfully close to sounding like a bunch of Marxists....and it would break my heart to see that! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_the ... alienation

[doodle]

Despite his narrow view of economic reality it leads Shorris to an important perception: ". . .economic necessity. . . demands the creation of Sisyphean tasks: nothing comes to have as much value as something. . .'' In particular, the "nothing' of value is information. Too many people are engaged in the production and circulation of utterly useless information.

Case in point: CNBC and to a greater extent most of the businesses that line wall street

[KevinW]

IMHO, the healthiest approach to many jobs today (perhaps most jobs even) is to pretend that each day you are going to play a somewhat boring and tedious board game with a group of jaded players of average to below average skills, some of whom have gotten into the routine of cheating in subtle ways that they justify to themselves based upon perceived design flaws in the rules of the game.

While I agree that that's a good coping mechanism, I think it's also healthy to ask whether we could work under a different order where a more significant portion of our work is personally gratifying and appreciated by others.

On an individual level, I think we have a certain amount of control over whether we allow ourselves to remain in pointless jobs, or whether we do what we can to minimize pointless activity and maximize things that do have a point.

A short article by David Graeber exploring the idea that 15hr work weeks have failed to materialise for political and moral reasons, resulting in many of us instead working "bullshit jobs"  for 50 - 60 hrs a week to keep us docile.

http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
The economist weighs in with a sort of rebuttal that new style bullshit jobs are less unpleasant and better paid than industrial jobs they replaced and that we should grateful for them before they are automated away. (Some of the comments after the article are eye opening)

Yeah, sometimes I think people that have never done manual labor are unaware of the physical toll it can take, and can romanticize it too much. Yes, building a cabinet or repairing a motorcycle produces a tangible product which is gratifying; but they also involve repetitive motions that can cause RSI, exposure to noxious chemicals, working around sharp implements, heavy objects, and high temperatures, etc. I know that after I spend a whole weekend day working on my car, and am splattered all over with various petrochemicals and ache in weird places, I'm happy to go back to my desk job Monday.

...the idea that 15hr work weeks have failed to materialise...

Actually IMO the 15 hour work and robot automation have materialized if you are willing to maintain the lifestyle that existed when they were first imagined.

A middle class lifestyle circa 1900 might have included
- a <1000 square foot house with no electricity, air conditioning, or laundry machines
- no motor vehicles
- no electronics
- 3 changes of clothes per person
- "meat and potatoes" diet with very limited access to restaurants or imported groceries
- information access limited to one newspaper, one shelf of books, and maybe a city library
- etc.

It really doesn't cost very much to replicate that in 2013 in USA. Indeed, if you upgrade that lifestyle to include a modern 1 BR apartment, full use of a mainstream supermarket, and an old laptop with Internet access, you will be at a far higher level of (relative) luxury.

In a way, the following are all "robots:" Amazon Prime, websites like Wikipedia and Google Local, streaming TV, dishwashers, clothes washers, online brokers and banks, UPS/FedEx/USPS, etc. Because you can wiggle your fingers around on your computer, and presto, very quickly your will is enacted. These things aren't humanoid androids like Lt. Data or something, but together they have a very similar practical effect.

[Tortoise]

I've designed consumer products for a while, and always felt a great sense of pride when I would walk down the street and see someone using a product I personally designed.  The thing is, after only a year everything I spent countless hours on became obsolete.  Watching your hard work fill landfills adds up -- you soon become keenly aware of the treadmill you're running. 

Most fashion designers and chefs should feel the same way you do. New fashions for dresses, shoes, handbags, etc. and fancy new culinary inventions have to be redesigned every year as people's tastes change.

Instead of feeling like their work is pointless, though, I imagine most fashion designers and chefs come to terms with the ephemeral nature of their products. Their ultimate dream isn't for the history books 1000 years hence to mention their work, because that will never happen. I've never seen the names of the most successful fashion designers or chefs from ancient Rome, for example, in my history textbooks.

In that sense, fashion design, cuisine, and many other lines of work that cater to consumer tastes are partially services. Although they do create tangible products, part of the value of those products lies in how happy and satisfied they make consumers feel here and now. Although happiness doesn't last the way a stone monument does, it nevertheless has a ripple effect that tends to persist across time and space in various forms. The effect is more abstract, but it exists.

Anyhow, I'm glad you're finding greater satisfaction in designing medical products. But I just wanted to suggest that just because the consumer products you design end up in the trash bin after a short while doesn't necessarily mean the work was ultimately pointless. Services are inherently abstract, but they are extremely valuable.

Careful with all this "alienation" talk guys...you are coming awfully close to sounding like a bunch of Marxists....and it would break my heart to see that! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_the ... alienation

Dismissing all of Marx's ideas based on some of his main conclusions being wrong would be a mistake--throwing the baby out with the bath water. Marx certainly had a few valid ideas, his theory of worker alienation probably being one of them.

[doodle]

Actually IMO the 15 hour work and robot automation have materialized if you are willing to maintain the lifestyle that existed when they were first imagined.

A middle class lifestyle circa 1900 might have included
- a <1000 square foot house with no electricity, air conditioning, or laundry machines
- no motor vehicles
- no electronics
- 3 changes of clothes per person
- "meat and potatoes" diet with very limited access to restaurants or imported groceries
- information access limited to one newspaper, one shelf of books, and maybe a city library
- etc.

It really doesn't cost very much to replicate that in 2013 in USA. Indeed, if you upgrade that lifestyle to include a modern 1 BR apartment, full use of a mainstream supermarket, and an old laptop with Internet access, you will be at a far higher level of (relative) luxury.

This is essentially what makes the Early Retirement Extreme / Mr.Money Mustache lifestyle possible.

If I didn't want to save any money and I had the flexibility at work to make my own hours I could survive very comfortably on about 15 hours of work a week. Actually, when I get to my number (hopefully in a few years) that is what I plan to do. I figure that if I can make enough to cover living expenses and let investments grow at 5-7 percent a year my future full retirement should be more than adequately covered while 15 hours a week of work is so minimal as to take virtually no toll on me physically or mentally. It's amazing that this idea hasn't become more popular because it really is such a easy, secure, and low stress way to live.

In fact the idea is nothing new. Epicurus (who dedicated much of his philosophy to the question of happiness) extolled this very type of simple lifestyle and constantly warned people about the dangerous and distracting nature of the marketplace.

[MediumTex]

IMHO, the healthiest approach to many jobs today (perhaps most jobs even) is to pretend that each day you are going to play a somewhat boring and tedious board game with a group of jaded players of average to below average skills, some of whom have gotten into the routine of cheating in subtle ways that they justify to themselves based upon perceived design flaws in the rules of the game.

While I agree that that's a good coping mechanism, I think it's also healthy to ask whether we could work under a different order where a more significant portion of our work is personally gratifying and appreciated by others.

On an individual level, I think we have a certain amount of control over whether we allow ourselves to remain in pointless jobs, or whether we do what we can to minimize pointless activity and maximize things that do have a point.

No doubt.

The problem is that a lot of pointless jobs pay really well, and for the people who are able to navigate their way up through these dens of pointlessness, often the rewards are even greater.

It sounds a bit like trading your soul for a bit of treasure, doesn't it?

[Tyler]

Most fashion designers and chefs should feel the same way you do. New fashions for dresses, shoes, handbags, etc. and fancy new culinary inventions have to be redesigned every year as people's tastes change.

Instead of feeling like their work is pointless, though, I imagine most fashion designers and chefs come to terms with the ephemeral nature of their products. Their ultimate dream isn't for the history books 1000 years hence to mention their work, because that will never happen. I've never seen the names of the most successful fashion designers or chefs from ancient Rome, for example, in my history textbooks.

In that sense, fashion design, cuisine, and many other lines of work that cater to consumer tastes are partially services. Although they do create tangible products, part of the value of those products lies in how happy and satisfied they make consumers feel here and now. Although happiness doesn't last the way a stone monument does, it nevertheless has a ripple effect that tends to persist across time and space in various forms. The effect is more abstract, but it exists.

Anyhow, I'm glad you're finding greater satisfaction in designing medical products. But I just wanted to suggest that just because the consumer products you design end up in the trash bin after a short while doesn't necessarily mean the work was ultimately pointless. Services are inherently abstract, but they are extremely valuable.

Thanks Tortoise.  That's a good outlook. 

For me, it comes down to tradeoffs.  Admittedly I have some baggage attached to a few projects that have more to do with the CE industry (which is crazy competitive) than the products (which are fun).  Spending months in China away from friends and family for half a dozen "critical" projects a year has a way of making you reevaluate your priorities.  Whether the product of my work lasts forever or is enjoyed once doesn't necessarily bother me as long as the development cycle is sustainable.  I guess you can say I've experienced the tipping point where your work/reward balance even for a productive job becomes pointless.  The landfill for me becomes a visual metaphor for the time spent and months wasted on those bad-bargain projects.

I'm proud of the work I've done -- even the products that never made it off the launching pad.  I just look forward to trying new things, as I prefer blazing new trails to running in circles.  Especially someone else's circles. 

[KevinW]

The problem is that a lot of pointless jobs pay really well, and for the people who are able to navigate their way up through these dens of pointlessness, often the rewards are even greater.

It sounds a bit like trading your soul for a bit of treasure, doesn't it?

Yeah, it sure does!

[Tyler]

Here's a great blog post to complement the discussion here:

An interview with The Man

http://tinyurl.com/ketxvl5

[Pointedstick]

Here's a great blog post to complement the discussion here:

An interview with The Man

http://tinyurl.com/ketxvl5

Amazing and excellent.

Really brings home the idea that you pretty much have to hack yourself out of the normal state of affairs if you want to avoid being a slave to stuff and the corporation that gives you money to buy it.

Do you know how people with hoards of money get to have those hoards of money? They make some money, and then they don’t spend it all. They keep some each time it comes in, and they use it to make more come in next time. That’s how power is accumulated. Instead of accumulating power, most of my employees accumulate objects in their homes, or they just burn the money as it comes in, on booze and expensive sandwiches. What I see is people setting up their lives such that they become dependent on powerful people like me, which is exactly the opposite of how one ought to build wealth. That’s why I’m The Man and they work for The Man.

[WiseOne]

...I sometimes forget just how pathetic the mental/psychological/spiritual/social pathways many people follow in the workplace really are, and then I will get a piece of work like a nice carpet cleaning gig or something like writing the PP book with Craig, and it just hits me like a slap in the face how empty and meaningless some of the other things I do really are.

You clean carpets???  Now THAT is a useful hobby!!  I notice it rates higher than the PP book too :-)

Kidding aside, this is a most enjoyable thread.  It helps remind me why I've stayed with a stressful but very fulfilling job at less than half the pay that I could have scored by going into a more usual sort of medical practice.  Not to say that private practice is necessarily not a fullfilling job, but it often isn't, and if I had to do it day in and day out I'd commit hara kiri.

[stuper1]

WiseOne,

If you were giving advice to young people on healthcare jobs that have a high fulfillment to frustration ratio, what jobs would come to your mind?

[moda0306]

WiseOne,

If you were giving advice to young people on healthcare jobs that have a high fulfillment to frustration ratio, what jobs would come to your mind?

I'm not WiseOne, but I know a couple occupational therapists that absolutely love what they do.

[MediumTex]

...I sometimes forget just how pathetic the mental/psychological/spiritual/social pathways many people follow in the workplace really are, and then I will get a piece of work like a nice carpet cleaning gig or something like writing the PP book with Craig, and it just hits me like a slap in the face how empty and meaningless some of the other things I do really are.

You clean carpets???  Now THAT is a useful hobby!!  I notice it rates higher than the PP book too :-)

Kidding aside, this is a most enjoyable thread.  It helps remind me why I've stayed with a stressful but very fulfilling job at less than half the pay that I could have scored by going into a more usual sort of medical practice.  Not to say that private practice is necessarily not a fullfilling job, but it often isn't, and if I had to do it day in and day out I'd commit hara kiri.

I was a truck driver for a while back in 2005-2006.

Just trying to have a full life, you know?

Craig is the guy who has done everything, though.  He's like Buckaroo Banzai.