We Are Doomed...

[WildAboutHarry]

This is probably what happened to ancient Rome and all great civilizations of the past.

“Our country’s broke,”? Hahne said. “And yet they have money and time to harass somebody about a rabbit.”?

Not with a bang, but a whimper.

[doodle]

What does that mean, "our country is broke"?

All of our productive labor and capital have disappeared over the last 10 years? All of our resources have dried up?

[WildAboutHarry]

What does that mean, "our country is broke"?

Morally, spiritually, intellectually, fundamentally, take your pick.  I think the guy was reaching for hyperbole.  But a country that regulates a magician's rabbit (note the singular) will regulate anything.  And I am no fan of magicians.  Except Gob on Arrested Development.

I think the best defense here would be for the magician to claim they are practicing religion and that regulating sacred animals is a violation of the First Amendment.

When you realize how much of "...our productive labor and capital..." gets squandered by such things it gives one pause.  Even though I suspect magicians contribute only a very minor amount of that labor and capital.

[Xan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPXvAM9blow

[moda0306]

Morally:

So over-regulation has a deep moral underpinning that is worse than what our government did back in the 1960's?  Or 1918?  Or 1862?

Also, violent crime has gone down significantly since 1980.


Spiritually:

You're probably correct, but if by "spiritual" you mean engaging in cultish behavior every Sunday then I'd have to disagree.  I think in many ways organized religion is anti-spiritual, as it clogs your head with arbitrary rules instead of trying to actually understand yourself (thinking about books like HB's How I Found Freedom as a better handbook to spiritual balance (in spite of it being painfully logical) than the Bible by a long shot.


Intellectually:

Go to page 7 of this link to see that our literacy & math scores have improved over the last 40 or so years.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... my7muVl8ow


Fundamentally:

Not sure what this means. If you mean financially.... finances are just a tool to allocate real resources, of which our country has the ability to produce an absolutely staggering amount of.

[notsheigetz]

Somebody needs to stick up for the Roman Empire once in a while.

According to Wiki Answers it lasted 1484 years.

How come we never see any books titled "Why did the Roman Empire last so long".

[above the herd]

After reading Moda's reply I have decided to cash in my PP and go 100% growth stocks.

[Bean]

Bread and Circuses

[WildAboutHarry]

Moda,

I was trying to fill in the blank for doodle regarding the Magician's quote.  Regulating a magician's rabbit strikes me as morally bankrupt, though.

So over-regulation has a deep moral underpinning that is worse than what our government did back in the 1960's?  Or 1918?  Or 1862?

Yes, a deep immoral underpinning.  Many (most?) regulations have demonstrable benefits to the regulated community.  Speed limits come to mind.  But regulating for the sake of regulating, or promulgating and enforcing regulations that no longer serve the public good are anathema to a free society.  A revolution was fought over similar meaures:

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

Somebody needs to stick up for the Roman Empire once in a while.

According to Wiki Answers it lasted 1484 years.

And I bet Year 1483 of the empire was when they started regulating Magician's rabbits.

[murphy_p_t]

The eastern empire didn't debase their currency and kept their religion intact.

[moda0306]

Wait, I thought "public purpose" was a myth? 

Doesn't universal healthcare serve a public purpose? 

Sorry to divert the subject, but I was under the impression that you were operating under the premise that government is coercive by nature and all but completely incompetent.

I agree that this seems like a very stupid regulation.  My dads stories about being in the navy during 'nam have some equally ridiculous themes to them. I just think we are seeing it cuz it's here and now. 

And not to beat a dead horse from other postings, if we are analyzing if this is a moral "decline" rather than just an anecdotal item, I'm sure this magician is glad that he wasn't forced at gun point to go fight an enemy from a trench overseas.

[Pointedstick]

It's really no big secret that if you're not an anarchist, you have to pick and choose which parts of government you like, and that this requires various types of analyses--moral, economic, practical, political, etc.

Even I the anarchist end up making those arguments in deference to the understanding that my utopian dreams of a successful private society will probably not come true in my lifetime.

And that's a more interesting conversation to have anyway: what does "public purpose" mean to people?

[moda0306]

Great point PS. I just try to keep consistent premises.

I don't know how to describe public purpose without it sounding inherantly rooted in some sort of statism to which the logical conclusion could be rounding up "unfavorables" and putting them somewhere else.

Similar to talk of opposing govt coercion logically concludes to no government.

[Pointedstick]

Great point PS. I just try to keep consistent premises.

I don't know how to describe public purpose without it sounding inherantly rooted in some sort of statism to which the logical conclusion could be rounding up "unfavorables" and putting them somewhere else.

Similar to talk of opposing govt coercion logically concludes to no government.

Right. But if "no government" is unrealistic, then that means we need to define what government should do while it's still around, even if we're going to work toward its elimination. This is always going to be arbitrary and unfair since the actions of a coercive, redistributive entity are inherently zero-sum; a "public purpose" that benefits me comes at the expense of the people it doesn't benefit.

So who should resources and power be redistributed toward? That's basically the underlying question of government. And it must be answered strongly and proudly, for a weak government that has not answered this question well will simply be taken over by someone whose answer is, " to me, of course." That's what happens to Communism, IMHO. And psychopathic and megalomaniacal redistribution of power and resources toward a ruthless leader is always going to be a worse result than redistribution that is "only" arbitrary and unfair.

[WildAboutHarry]

Wait, I thought "public purpose" was a myth? 

Doesn't universal healthcare serve a public purpose? 

Sorry to divert the subject, but I was under the impression that you were operating under the premise that government is coercive by nature and all but completely incompetent.

I agree that this seems like a very stupid regulation.  My dads stories about being in the navy during 'nam have some equally ridiculous themes to them. I just think we are seeing it cuz it's here and now. 

And not to beat a dead horse from other postings, if we are analyzing if this is a moral "decline" rather than just an anecdotal item, I'm sure this magician is glad that he wasn't forced at gun point to go fight an enemy from a trench overseas.

What "public purpose" is served by regulating magician's bunnies?

Government is fundamentally coercive by nature, but for most of us and for most things that coercive power is not exercised.  I pay my taxes because I think, on balance, I get value for those taxes.  I obey speed limits, not because I fear prosecution but because I fear death!

This bunny regulation is but a small example of moral decline that is individually trivial and cumulatively crippling.  We have let ourselves be regulated, incrementally, until the Federal Register occupies how many dozens of feet of shelf space (or terabytes) per year?  How many regulations have you violated this year?  Do you have all the permits for the improvements and repairs done to your house?  Have you paid cash for services and not prepared a W-2?  Do you have unreported gambling winnings?  Do you properly dispose of batteries?  Are your tires properly inflated?  Are all of your car's air pollution controls functioning?

I think the logical conclusion isn't "no government", it is government with a "regulation regulator".  Sunset every regulation after some reasonable period.  If that regulation really served the regulated public it would be reenacted post haste.

[Libertarian666]

Wait, I thought "public purpose" was a myth? 

Doesn't universal healthcare serve a public purpose? 

Sorry to divert the subject, but I was under the impression that you were operating under the premise that government is coercive by nature and all but completely incompetent.

I agree that this seems like a very stupid regulation.  My dads stories about being in the navy during 'nam have some equally ridiculous themes to them. I just think we are seeing it cuz it's here and now. 

And not to beat a dead horse from other postings, if we are analyzing if this is a moral "decline" rather than just an anecdotal item, I'm sure this magician is glad that he wasn't forced at gun point to go fight an enemy from a trench overseas.

What "public purpose" is served by regulating magician's bunnies?

Government is fundamentally coercive by nature, but for most of us and for most things that coercive power is not exercised.  I pay my taxes because I think, on balance, I get value for those taxes.  I obey speed limits, not because I fear prosecution but because I fear death!

They don't care why you obey, so long as you obey.
And you are probably the only person I know who thinks he gets value for his taxes. I know I don't; in fact I get negative value. I'd much rather pay the taxes and not get the supposed "value". Obviously I'd even more prefer not to have to pay them, but I know they would force me, so I do pay.

This bunny regulation is but a small example of moral decline that is individually trivial and cumulatively crippling.  We have let ourselves be regulated, incrementally, until the Federal Register occupies how many dozens of feet of shelf space (or terabytes) per year?  How many regulations have you violated this year?  Do you have all the permits for the improvements and repairs done to your house?  Have you paid cash for services and not prepared a W-2?  Do you have unreported gambling winnings?  Do you properly dispose of batteries?  Are your tires properly inflated?  Are all of your car's air pollution controls functioning?

I think the logical conclusion isn't "no government", it is government with a "regulation regulator".  Sunset every regulation after some reasonable period.  If that regulation really served the regulated public it would be reenacted post haste.

Exactly how would the people enforce the "regulation regulator" against the government?
Oh, that's right, they couldn't. So we would have to trust the government to govern itself. We've seen how well that works.

[WildAboutHarry]

And you are probably the only person I know who thinks he gets value for his taxes.

I said "on balance", meaning the scales tip slightly in favor of positive value (for me).

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Attendee: Brought peace?

Regarding regulating the regulators, Robert Heinlein illustrated a great solution in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  A 2/3 vote required to pass legislation, but only a 1/3 vote required to repeal legislation.  The logic being that if a piece of legislation cannot win the support of 2/3rds of the legislature (or is despised by 1/3rd of the legislature) it is probably a bad idea.

I agree.  But I think attributing rabbit regulation to moral decline is hyperbole as well.  Stupidity will do just fine.

Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but I don't think so (I can agree with stupidity as well).  You have to question the morality - their consideration of what is right and what is wrong - of the person who first thought it was a good idea to regulate magician's bunnies.

I have worked with state and federal regulations on a daily basis for about 20 years, and I am amazed that even with very little legislative change the executive branch implementation of regulations has greatly expanded the scope and cost of those regulations.

And hot off the press:

[Senate Bill 556] would require contract employees working for state or local governments to affix notices to their uniforms or vehicles that dientify them as "not a government employee."

What next!

[moda0306]

After watching most of the documentary on prohibition last night, I have no inclination at all that a rabbit regulation is inherantly more silly than the governments of decades and centuries past.

The regulations around prohibition were extremely silly.  We survived.

[moda0306]

I really don't mean to sound complacent you guys.

I really think this regulation sounds absolutely ridiculous. Especially that the federal government is involved.

But I refuse to be lulled into some sort of anger or "trap" (as HB would put it) when governments have been doing plenty of idiotic and far more coercive things for centuries.

We have to work from a sound premise.  Otherwise we could see disaster everywhere we look and live a miserable life.

[doodle]

After watching most of the documentary on prohibition last night, I have no inclination at all that a rabbit regulation is inherantly more silly than the governments of decades and centuries past.

The regulations around prohibition were extremely silly.  We survived.

Life today for the majority of westerners is so stupefyingly good and abundant that if our ancestors could hear our whining about how awful things are, they would probably rise from their graves and choke us. Can things get better and is there room for improvement? Sure. But let's not overlook how immensely grateful we should all be for our lot in life. Would anyone here place their present condition on the table and roll the dice in a game of chance where you could come back as anyone in any previous time period? I think not.

Smile! If you are participating in this forum you already won the lottery of life!

Besides, everyone and everything is eventually "doomed" any ways. That is written into a set of regulations that we don't have any control over.

[Pointedstick]

As much as I hate purposeless, arbitrary, stultifying rules, I have to agree with moda and doodle. We have it so good today. By way of example:

Last night, my wife and I used a portable telecommunications device to show a live video feed of my son walking around to his grandparents. We did this while our dinner was cooking itself, and we ate it after ending the long-distance video chat.

Later on after my son was asleep, I went to my personal computer and designed a small part, which I then sent to my homemade 3D printer which I assembled from commodity components that cost me far less than a week's wages. My 3D printer assembled the part while I browsed the web and talked with you guys--total strangers living hundreds or thousands of miles away from me--about intellectually stimulating topics.

When the part was finished printing, I used it as a component in another machine which I am designing and plan to offer for sale because I am able to buy its components in bulk from foreigners for astonishingly low prices. While working on the other machine, I realized that I had run out of metric 8mm nuts, so I used one of my two internet-capable devices to find the online store of a company that specializes in selling bolts and nuts and added 100 to my next order for the price of $2.

This is a magical world we live in.

Yes, these innovations all come from the private sector. But the government has not destroyed them. It has not murdered or imprisoned their creators. It has not sent them off to war. It has not tortured them to death for believing in the wrong religion. It has not burned their houses to the ground or kidnapped their family members or publicly humiliated them in a ritualistic fashion or any of the other things that most human governments have historically done at one point in time or other.

These things still happen, of course, but it's easier than ever to avoid this fate and partake in the richness and majesty of the amazing, unprecedented opportunities we have today to express ourselves, pursue our happiness, and make a difference.

[moda0306]

PS,

Perfectly put.

I'll fully admit, guys taping cop's inappropriate behaviors, wiki leaks, constant vigilance against brutality or ridiculous unnecessary government by society is not just ok, but phenomenal to see.  However, we need to be encouraged when we see these citizens, not discouraged about the gov't's behavior to the point of thinking the world/country is going to shit. That's not only unpleasant, but it just simply ain't true on most counts.

The whole "sky is falling" tripe has been used by racists, conservatives, race baiters, libtards, slave owners, business owners, teachers, parents and priests for centuries now.  All because they don't have the proper perspective, nor the proper premise of where we've truly come from.

Let's not complain about the sky falling or that we're in some kind of massive decline.  Let's enjoy life and spend enough hours in our week pointing out injustice to keep us plugged in, but not so many hours that our personal lives and outlooks on life begin to suffer.  Very few people in history have had such a luxury of balance available to them.

Keep the rabbit stories coming!  Just please don't despair.  There's something extremely enjoyable you're probably missing out on that our ancestors would have never dreamt possible. 

[WildAboutHarry]

Yes, these innovations all come from the private sector. But the government has not destroyed them. It has not murdered or imprisoned their creators. It has not sent them off to war. It has not tortured them to death for believing in the wrong religion. It has not burned their houses to the ground or kidnapped their family members or publicly humiliated them in a ritualistic fashion or any of the other things that most human governments have historically done at one point in time or other. 

These things still happen, of course, but it's easier than ever to avoid this fate and partake in the richness and majesty of the amazing, unprecedented opportunities we have today to express ourselves, pursue our happiness, and make a difference.

Gee, I don't know whether to sing "Kumbya" or "This Land Is Your Land."

The whole "sky is falling" tripe has been used by racists, conservatives, race baiters, libtards, slave owners, business owners, teachers, parents and priests for centuries now.  All because they don't have the proper perspective, nor the proper premise of where we've truly come from.

And you are anointed and have the "proper perspective"?  It is somewhat offensive - no, it is very offensive - to be apparently classified with "racists, et al."  No one here has said the "sky" is falling.  I know in my 60+ years "where we've truly come from", and while I appreciate the apparently trivial nature of regulating bunnies, it is symptomatic of a level of stupidity unprecedented in the history of this country.

[Pointedstick]

and while I appreciate the apparently trivial nature of regulating bunnies, it is symptomatic of a level of stupidity unprecedented in the history of this country.

Starting in 1961, the U.S. government got the bright idea of excavating earth using nuclear weapons. Wasn't that stupider?

Wasn't the entire purposeless war in Vietnam stupider?

Wasn't the McCarthy witchhunt stupider?

Wasn't Wilson getting involved in World War I and laying the groundwork for WWII stupider?

I agree with you that regulating magicians' bunnies is idiotic. But the U.S. government doesn't really seem any more or less stupid than my reading of history suggests they always were. Rather, my guess is that the rest of society has advanced so far and gotten so much less stupid in the last 50 years that the government's stupidity probably looks more stupid in comparison.

[MediumTex]

WildAboutHarry,

Do you think that the government is more stupid today than it was 50 or 100 years ago?

I think that it is easy to be nostalgic for the good old days when the government wasn't as bumbling, incompetent and stupid as it is today, but I don't know if there was ever actually such a time in history.

For example, how does the regulation of a magician's bunny compare to government mismanagement of the regulation of slavery that leads to the deaths of more than half a million people?



I didn't realize this, but apparently there were more American casualties at the Battle of Gettysburg than there were in the entire Revolutionary War.

Rather than the address he is known for following the Gettysburg battle, perhaps Lincoln should have gotten up in front of the crowd and said this:

"You know what?  I didn't think all of this was going to happen when I decided it would be a good idea to go to war with a faction within my own country.  I'm really sorry about all of this.  I guess I thought that when the federal government told the states to do something, they would just do it.  I really thought that people would simply go along with my vision of how the world should work, and I hate that it has been necessary to kill so many of them to let the survivors know how things are going to be.  Hopefully, we won't have to kill too many more people who disagree with us."