MMT (Mosler) vs. Austrian School (Murphy) Debate

[moda0306]

I liked some of what Mosler had to say, but after some MR conversations and some debates on this board, I'm left kind of unimpressed.

That guy who was offended by comparing the government to a bank robber obviously hasn't opened his mind up to individual sovereignty.

I thought Mosler very inadquately danced around his proposed system, which involves the same "gun pointing" as our current system... with a government-run monetary system and tax system.  He should have pointed out that any centralized monetary system is a choice by government... even deciding what to collect taxes in involves a choice that will help drive what society chooses to use as money.  He should have not tried to say about the gun-pointing that "it's the way the system works, not the way I'd have it work," because it mainly IS the way he'd have it work.  It's fine by me because I've come to terms with what I would like government to do vs not do.

"The Austrian's" arguments were actually pretty valid considering the lack of drilling down of Mosler's arguments.  I think this all starts with the idea from my recent thread that in a modern monetized economy we have structural monetary systems that make unemployment the natural result of economic shocks. Rather than simply being able to work off debt and adjust, we end up in a big trap.  It's simply the nature of a monetized economy, especially one that uses private debt arrangements as a big chunk of the money-creation mechanism.

One thing I've come to realize is that government, simply by being big enough to have to collect a solid chunk of taxes, essentially picks which money will likely be circulated... whether that's some other country's fiat currency, a bunch of yellow coins, or its own fiat currency is the choice of the government.

And I know some people aren't going to like Warren's calling "people getting together to make rules" government, but I think it's a bit ambiguous where to draw the line between "society" and government.

[Ad Orientem]

[Pointedstick]

Must… resist… engaging…

[moda0306]

At first I thought this was in response to you watching the link and being interested.

It was funny then.

Then I realized you meant wanting to watch where this thread goes. 

It got quite a bit funnier then.

[Pointedstick]

Urge... to... debate... rising...

[moda0306]

Urge... to... debate... rising...

Macro. Aggregate demand.  Equilibrium.  In the long run we're all dead. Not budget constrained.

[Pointedstick]

Oh no you're going to have to do better than that! I'm talking about "insufficient liquidity in a monetized economy" "property is an artificial construction of government" and stuff like that. You gotta pull out the big guns to tempt me!

[moda0306]

Libertarianism is fascism for those who have stolen enough property from brown people for long enough to feel like they've earned it and it's a natural extension of their body...

Had enough, white devil?

[moda0306]

Oh, here we go:

America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you’ve lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn’t belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don’t care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve.

- Tom Morello

[Pointedstick]

Oh, here we go:

America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you’ve lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn’t belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don’t care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve.

- Tom Morello

Okay, you finally got me with this one. Interestingly enough, because I almost entirely agree; so much so that just today I quit my job and have decided to take my 3D printing business full time.

So I strenuously disagree that the only way to make a living is by selling your labor to a boss who keeps all the results. That's only the most popular way, for reasons that have tortured me for years: because it's safe, easy, and reasonably lucrative (in varying amounts depending on the industry and position of course). There's a nice predictable paycheck, usually some benefits like subsidized health insurance, free coffee, an automatic social life, and other perks.

Without the job, there's no paycheck, no perks, and no built-in social life but you do get freedom. Not the typical right-libertarian I-got-my-property-and-my-guns freedom, but the freedom to pursue your dreams, to live life on your own terms, to be accountable only to your ability to serve the needs of those who want to deal with you.

I'm a little scared to be unlocking the golden handcuffs/killing the golden goose/unstrapping the golden parachute, but feel like I'm absolutely making the right decision in terms of my mental health. So no, you can avoid caring about bosses and still make a living, and that's exactly what I intend to do.

[Ad Orientem]

At first I thought this was in response to you watching the link and being interested.

It was funny then.

Then I realized you meant wanting to watch where this thread goes. 

It got quite a bit funnier then.

[Xan]

just today I quit my job and have decided to take my 3D printing business full time.

Congratulations!

[Pointedstick]

Thanks, everyone. Pretty soon I'll probably be full of questions regarding real estate, mortgages, purchasing health insurance on the open market, S-Corp vs LLC, etc.

[moda0306]

S-corp you can more easily avoid se tax... For now.

LLC, almost everything else.


Congrats man!  Seriously good news.  And way to take the steam out of my snarky anti-capitalist rantings!

[doodle]

Oh, here we go:

America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you’ve lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn’t belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don’t care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve.

- Tom Morello

Okay, you finally got me with this one. Interestingly enough, because I almost entirely agree; so much so that just today I quit my job and have decided to take my 3D printing business full time.

So I strenuously disagree that the only way to make a living is by selling your labor to a boss who keeps all the results. That's only the most popular way, for reasons that have tortured me for years: because it's safe, easy, and reasonably lucrative (in varying amounts depending on the industry and position of course). There's a nice predictable paycheck, usually some benefits like subsidized health insurance, free coffee, an automatic social life, and other perks.

Without the job, there's no paycheck, no perks, and no built-in social life but you do get freedom. Not the typical right-libertarian I-got-my-property-and-my-guns freedom, but the freedom to pursue your dreams, to live life on your own terms, to be accountable only to your ability to serve the needs of those who want to deal with you.

I'm a little scared to be unlocking the golden handcuffs/killing the golden goose/unstrapping the golden parachute, but feel like I'm absolutely making the right decision in terms of my mental health. So no, you can avoid caring about bosses and still make a living, and that's exactly what I intend to do.

Congrats! Thats a ballsy move. Tell me, what is to keep the 3D printing business from following the walmart model? Right now the technology is new enough, but dont you see it as just another industry that will be dominated again by an oligopoly like we have seen in industry after industry from food, to banking, to cars etc etc?

[doodle]

Or in Marx's words...

The lower strata of the capitalists - the small tradespeople, shopkeepers, and retired tradesmen generally, the handicraftsmen and peasants – all these sink gradually into the proletariat, partly because their diminutive capital does not suffice for the scale on which Modern Industry is carried on, and is swamped in the competition with the large capitalists, partly because their specialised skill is rendered worthless by new methods of production. Thus the proletariat is recruited from all classes of the population.

[Pointedstick]

doodle, you're absolutely right. I see that happening for sure... but just not quite yet. There's still a ton of money to be made in the DIY space where a small independent enthusiast who keeps his finger on the pulse of the community can rapidly iterate and offer what's new and hot today. So if the "large capitalists" represent a wave that can engulf you, you don't fight it; you surf on it. You stay ahead and offer specialized goods and services that their generic offerings can't match.

Besides, when we get to the point where Wal-Mart is selling cheap crappy Chinese-made 3D printers to the masses, the masses are going to need someone like me to troubleshoot, fix, and maintain their 3D printers!

[KevinW]

On the original topic, I think Mosler presented his ideas more clearly and did a better job of selling his views.

However this didn't do much for me as a debate. I would have liked to see the debaters respond to and rebut each others' points. Maybe then we could get down to the fundamental differences in viewpoint between the two schools. This felt more like they were talking past each other and making valid points that were disconnected from each other.

Before I watched this I was skeptical of MMT and the debate did not change my mind.