Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Edward Snowden — the fugitive former U.S. intelligence contractor — appears to be stuck in Moscow, unable to leave without a valid American passport, according to interviews Sunday with two men who had sought to aid him: WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange and Ecuadoran President Rafael Correa.

Snowden, 30, arrived at Moscow’s Sheremetyevo International Airport last weekend, after previously taking refuge in Hong Kong. Moscow was only supposed to be a stopover. WikiLeaks, the anti-secrecy organization, had said Snowden was headed on to Ecuador — whose leftist president has been critical of the United States — and that he would seek asylum there.
Read the rest here...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Simonjester wrote: Image

A man of few words I see.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Simonjester wrote: there is supposed to be a picture of the movie poster from the movie "the terminal" with tom hanks in that post. It's about a man with no country stuck living in a airport terminal...
An apropos image

Image
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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If it weren't June/July, we'd be getting a lot of "Snow'd In" headlines.

(Tried to post this yesterday, but the forum daemon kept telling me that I'd already posted it,
and I eventually gave up, depriving you all of this gem of a post).
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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dualstow wrote: If it weren't June/July, we'd be getting a lot of "Snow'd In" headlines.

(Tried to post this yesterday, but the forum daemon kept telling me that I'd already posted it,
and I eventually gave up, depriving you all of this gem of a post).
No danger of such headlines where I'm at. My five day forecast...

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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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l82start wrote: there is supposed to be a picture of the movie poster from the movie "the terminal" with tom hanks in that post. It's about a man with no country stuck living in a airport terminal...
Before he's done, he might feel more like Tom Hanks in Castaway.

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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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This incident is reshaping my views on government....
In a statement issued on the WikiLeaks website, Snowden attacked the Obama administration, saying, “On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic ‘wheeling and dealing’ over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

“This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile." 

He continued, "Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum."
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Ad Orientem wrote:
dualstow wrote: If it weren't June/July, we'd be getting a lot of "Snow'd In" headlines.

(Tried to post this yesterday, but the forum daemon kept telling me that I'd already posted it,
and I eventually gave up, depriving you all of this gem of a post).
No danger of such headlines where I'm at. My five day forecast...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Gw7d1cT6I9s/U ... /chill.jpg
Haha, that's great!
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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doodle wrote: This incident is reshaping my views on government....
In a statement issued on the WikiLeaks website, Snowden attacked the Obama administration, saying, “On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic ‘wheeling and dealing’ over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

“This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile."

He continued, "Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum."
This incident is chock full of upside for me already since I'm already fairly anti-government, but could it convert Doodle?  Inconceivable!
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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doodle wrote: This incident is reshaping my views on government....
In a statement issued on the WikiLeaks website, Snowden attacked the Obama administration, saying, “On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic ‘wheeling and dealing’ over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

“This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile."

He continued, "Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum."
That sounds like hyperbole to me. A warrant for his arrest has been issued by a duly constituted court after indictment by a Grand Jury. I'd call that a judicial order. I think it's perfectly normal to cancel the passport of known fugitives.

None of which makes me think less of Mr. Snowden. I think he has acted heroically. But my concern for the rule of law also says that if you chose to break the law out of moral conviction then you need to be prepared to accept the consequences of that. Again it's worth remembering that Dr. King wrote his famous letters from the Birmingham Jail, while he was actually in jail.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Ad Orientem wrote: That sounds like hyperbole to me. A warrant for his arrest has been issued by a duly constituted court after indictment by a Grand Jury. I'd call that a judicial order. I think it's perfectly normal to cancel the passport of known fugitives.

None of which makes me think less of Mr. Snowden. I think he has acted heroically. But my concern for the rule of law also says that if you chose to break the law out of moral conviction then you need to be prepared to accept the consequences of that. Again it's worth remembering that Dr. King wrote his famous letters from the Birmingham Jail, while he was actually in jail.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the concept of jury nullification?
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Pointedstick wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: That sounds like hyperbole to me. A warrant for his arrest has been issued by a duly constituted court after indictment by a Grand Jury. I'd call that a judicial order. I think it's perfectly normal to cancel the passport of known fugitives.

None of which makes me think less of Mr. Snowden. I think he has acted heroically. But my concern for the rule of law also says that if you chose to break the law out of moral conviction then you need to be prepared to accept the consequences of that. Again it's worth remembering that Dr. King wrote his famous letters from the Birmingham Jail, while he was actually in jail.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the concept of jury nullification?
I think there is a time and place for it. But you need to be VERY careful when going there. It's a dangerous and slippery slope. Libertarians tend to support jury nullification citing unjust laws and perversion of justice. But is one man's perversion of justice is sometimes another man's only hope for justice. And the practice is frequently abused to score political points. Witness the OJ Simpson murder trial.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Ad Orientem wrote: But my concern for the rule of law also says that if you chose to break the law out of moral conviction then you need to be prepared to accept the consequences of that. Again it's worth remembering that Dr. King wrote his famous letters from the Birmingham Jail, while he was actually in jail.
Harry Browne basically said the same thing in his audio course.  He said it something like this:

"If you are hungry and steal food so you can eat, you may be perfectly justified in your own eyes, but that feeling of justification has nothing to do with the consequences that may flow from the act.  When you decide to steal the food you should do it based on the conclusion that it is worth doing in spite of the consequences, as opposed to doing it based on the assumption that the normal consequences of the act somehow won't apply to you because you feel justified."

***

If I decide that I am anti-tiger and I start carrying around anti-tiger signs and passing out anti-tiger pamphlets on street corners and I get everyone to agree with my anti-tiger arguments, it has nothing to do with what will happen if I get into a pen with a hungry tiger.  In that situation my feelings of justification and validation have nothing to do with the consequences that will flow from my decision to enter the tiger's space.

Snowden has been on an anti-tiger crusade, perhaps without realizing the nature of the entity he is dealing with and the fact that this tiger's space is the whole world.

Contrary to what he might have imagined, he's not dealing with Tigger or Tony.

Fail:

Image

Fail:

Image

This is the type of tiger Snowden is dealing with:

Image

This is how it subdues its prey:

Image

And this is where it keeps its trophies:

Image

Here is one description of life in a supermax trophy case:
You have to picture spokes on a wheel, and in the center of the spoke is a correctional officer who sits behind computers and runs the system with buttons, and he's behind glass.

And then down the spokes are just cell after cell after cell, and the inmates are in these eight-by-eight-foot-long cells, just - it's all concrete, a stainless steel desk and a chair, and there's very little else in these cells. And the officer will then push a button and allow the inmate out for the hour and a half, what they call outside.

Outside is a large concrete box, you could probably fit maybe two cars in it, and it has 20-foot walls, and on the top is a grate. And so if you look straight up, you can see the sky. Maybe if it was high noon, you might get a glimpse of the sun, but really outside there's no balls or anything to do.

And then the officer will allow - press the button. You will walk back into your cell, and that's that. And you will not speak with the officer, you're not going to interact with anybody. You're going to pass by the other cells, but the doors are made of solid steel, and they have nickel-sized holes in them. So you can really just maybe see the eyes or some figures behind the wall, but you're not interacting with other inmates, you're not interacting with the officers.

And then three times a day somebody comes by and slides a food tray through the slot in the door. You don't really talk to that person. And most of the people that - I spoke to dozens of the people that were at Pelican Bay, and they hadn't spoke to anybody outside this very narrow space in years, let alone touched anybody.

LINK
And that's how the trophies live, typically until they die of natural causes, whenever that may be.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Snowden hasnt harmed anyone....he has merely disrupted this ridiculous game that nation states engage in. The present organizational structure of the planet is based on invented concepts like nationality, patriotism, and terrorism. When people do things that challenge that system, it upsets those at the top.

Snowden might not have played by the elite's rules, but ethically and morally he has done nothing wrong.

From a practical standpoint, I realize the necessity of government. Cases like these however bring out my anarchist sympathies.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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MT,

Snowden is aware of the consequences I think....which is why he is trying to stay out of the tigers cage. What he is doing is completely rational and justified in my book. No sane person would return to the US to stand trial when Bradley Manning is a pretty good example of how government whistleblowers are treated in this country.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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doodle wrote: MT,

Snowden is aware of the consequences I think....which is why he is trying to stay out of the tigers cage. What he is doing is completely rational and justified in my book. No sane person would return to the US to stand trial when Bradley Manning is a pretty good example of how government whistleblowers are treated in this country.
As MT said though, the whole world is the tiger's cage. There's pretty much nowhere Snowden can go that's out of reach of the U.S. tiger government. I think his problem is that he's trying to find refuge in another powerful tiger government. They're all tigers at the end of the day. Not one of them wants to upset the "ridiculous game that nation states engage in." At best, they want to deal the USA a diplomatic blow and act shocked, shocked! to find spying going on in this establishment!

IMHO, Snowden should be trying to drop off the grid and keep telling his story from behind the kind of elaborate technological firewall that the NSA taught him how to operate.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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doodle wrote: MT,

Snowden is aware of the consequences I think....which is why he is trying to stay out of the tigers cage. What he is doing is completely rational and justified in my book. No sane person would return to the US to stand trial when Bradley Manning is a pretty good example of how government whistleblowers are treated in this country.
Yes, he is behaving in a perfectly rational way, and I wish him the best.  He clearly believes that the government should not be spying on its own citizens with little or no legal authority to do so (I am assuming it is illegal since it doesn't seem possible to have probable cause to snoop on tens of millions of people), but nevertheless he is up against a ruthless and relentless opponent.

I hope he doesn't become a trophy, but most do.

If you read about the Pentagon Papers/Daniel Ellsberg case, it's hard not to conclude that he is the luckiest dude in the history of dudes.  He didn't walk because of the righteousness of his cause.  He walked because of a very fortunate turn of events in his criminal case that coincided with a favorable political climate for him at that particular moment in time.

99% of the time the Daniel Ellsbergs of the world are either executed or forgotten about as they slowly decay in prison.

***

If you are not familiar with the Ellsberg case, here is a bit about the aftermath of his release of classified documents showing that the government had always known Vietnam was unwinnable and that there was never any coherent U.S. military strategy:
The release of these papers was politically embarrassing not only to those involved in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations but also to the incumbent Nixon administration. Nixon's Oval Office tape from June 14, 1972, shows H. R. Haldeman describing the situation to Nixon:

"Rumsfeld was making this point this morning... To the ordinary guy, all this is a bunch of gobbledygook. But out of the gobbledygook comes a very clear thing.... It shows that people do things the president wants to do even though it's wrong, and the president can be wrong".

As a response to the leaks, the Nixon administration began a campaign against further leaks and against Ellsberg personally. Aides Egil Krogh and David Young, under the supervision of John Ehrlichman, created the "White House Plumbers", which would later lead to the Watergate burglaries.

Fielding break-in

In August 1971, Krogh and Young met with G. Gordon Liddy and E. Howard Hunt in a basement office in the Old Executive Office Building. Hunt and Liddy recommended a "covert operation" to get a "mother lode" of information about Ellsberg's mental state in order to discredit him. Krogh and Young sent a memo to Ehrlichman seeking his approval for a "covert operation [to] be undertaken to examine all of the medical files still held by Ellsberg's psychiatrist." Ehrlichman approved under the condition that it be "done under your assurance that it is not traceable."

On September 3, 1971, the burglary of Lewis Fielding's office – titled "Hunt/Liddy Special Project No. 1" in Ehrlichman's notes—was carried out by Hunt, Liddy and CIA officers Eugenio Martinez, Felipe de Diego and Bernard Barker. The "Plumbers" failed to find Ellsberg's file. Hunt and Liddy subsequently planned to break into Fielding's home, but Ehrlichman did not approve the second burglary. The break-in was not known to Ellsberg or to the public until it came to light during Ellsberg and Russo's trial in April 1973.

Trial and mistrial

On June 28, 1971, two days before a Supreme Court ruling saying that a federal judge had ruled incorrectly about the right of the New York Times to publish the Pentagon Papers, Ellsberg publicly surrendered to the United States Attorney's Office for the District of Massachusetts in Boston. In admitting to giving the documents to the press, Ellsberg said:

I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision.

He and Russo faced charges under the Espionage Act of 1917 and other charges including theft and conspiracy, carrying a total maximum sentence of 115 years. Their trial commenced in Los Angeles on January 3, 1973, presided over by U.S. District Judge William Matthew Byrne, Jr.

On April 26, the break-in of Fielding's office was revealed to the court in a memo to Judge Byrne, who then ordered it to be shared with the defense.

On May 9, further evidence of illegal wiretapping against Ellsberg was revealed in court. The FBI had recorded numerous conversations between Morton Halperin and Ellsberg without a court order, and furthermore the prosecution had failed to share this evidence with the defense. During the trial, Byrne also revealed that he personally met twice with John Ehrlichman, who offered him directorship of the FBI. Byrne said he refused to consider the offer while the Ellsberg case was pending, though he was criticized for even agreeing to meet with Ehrlichman during the case.

Due to the gross governmental misconduct and illegal evidence gathering, and the defense by Leonard Boudin and Harvard Law School professor Charles Nesson, Judge Byrne dismissed all charges against Ellsberg and Russo on May 11, 1973 after the government claimed it had lost records of wiretapping against Ellsberg. Byrne ruled: "The totality of the circumstances of this case which I have only briefly sketched offend a sense of justice. The bizarre events have incurably infected the prosecution of this case."

As a result of the revelation of the Fielding break-in during the trial, John Ehrlichman, H R Haldeman, Richard Kleindienst and John Dean were forced out of office on April 30, and all would later be convicted of crimes related to the Watergate scandal. Egil Krogh later pleaded guilty to conspiracy, and White House counsel Charles Colson pleaded no contest for obstruction of justice in the burglary. "The court concluded that Nixon, Mitchell, and Haldeman had violated the Halperins' Fourth Amendment rights, but not the terms of Title III. The Halperins were awarded $1 in nominal damages in August 1977."

Ellsberg later claimed that after his trial ended, Watergate prosecutor William H. Merrill informed him of an aborted plot by Liddy and the "plumbers" to have 12 Cuban-Americans who had previously worked for the CIA to "totally incapacitate" Ellsberg as he appeared at a public rally, though it is unclear whether that meant to assassinate Ellsberg or merely to hospitalize him. In his autobiography, Liddy describes an "Ellsberg neutralization proposal" originating from Howard Hunt, which involved drugging Ellsberg with LSD, by dissolving it in his soup, at a fund-raising dinner in Washington in order to "have Ellsberg incoherent by the time he was to speak" and thus "make him appear a near burnt-out drug case" and "discredit him". The plot involved waiters from the Miami Cuban community. According to Liddy, when the plan was finally approved, "there was no longer enough lead time to get the Cuban waiters up from their Miami hotels and into place in the Washington Hotel where the dinner was to take place" and the plan was "put into abeyance pending another opportunity".

LINK
Sounds like fun, huh?

I hope Snowden isn't depending on the federal government doing anything quite THAT stupid this time around.  Note, though, that even in light of all of that outrageous behavior by the government in the Ellsberg case, the federal prosecutors were STILL trying to put him in prison for the rest of his life.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Did you see where Putin has stated that only if Snowden stops harming the U.S. via leaking will he be considered as a possibility to remain in Russia.

Now that is priceless!
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Reub wrote: Did you see where Putin has stated that only if Snowden stops harming the U.S. via leaking will he be considered as a possibility to remain in Russia.

Now that is priceless!
I did see that, and it did get a chuckle out of me. Whodda thunk? Vladdy has a sense of humor.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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No extradition.

I don't harbor ill will toward Edward Snowden, but I do wish we could kill someone with radioactive substances, rendering a Moscow restaurant unusable for years.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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dualstow wrote: No extradition.

I don't harbor ill will toward Edward Snowden, but I do wish we could kill someone with radioactive substances, rendering a Moscow restaurant unusable for years.
Putin really should invest in some good quality drones.

Killing people you don't like with radioactive substances is SO 20th century.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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MediumTex wrote: Putin really should invest in some good quality drones.

Killing people you don't like with radioactive substances is SO 20th century.
I wonder if Putin has a son. He could have a conversation like Dr Evil had with son, Scott Evil in Austin Powers.
Scott: Why don't we just put a bullet in his head right now? Bang! Done!
Dr Evil: (paraphrase) no, no, no, I'm going to put him in an elaborate trap which will eventually kill him, and I'm going to leave before it happens.
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Well at least Vlady has a sense of humor. Along with piles of paperwork to fill out for his asylum application and some new clothes, he was given a book. Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment."
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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The Onion headline here could be: USA comfortingly reassures world that it has chosen not to torture and murder person who made it look bad

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/us/nsa-sn ... ?hpt=hp_c3
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Re: Snowden May Be Stuck In Russia

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Pointedstick wrote: The Onion headline here could be: USA comfortingly reassures world that it has chosen not to torture and murder person who made it look bad

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/us/nsa-sn ... ?hpt=hp_c3
I was looking at the comments to that story and one person said "The only thing due a traitor is death."  One of the replies to this comment was "You want to kill the head of the NSA?"
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