Violence against Americans happens all over the world every day.
The U.S. government bungled the way it reported this event, but the event itself was unremarkable--what were people expecting to happen in Libya shortly after its government had been toppled? When the Iraqi government was toppled attacks on Americans occurred almost every day for years (ditto for Afghanistan). In the Benghazi attack, it was literally one attack on one day. I'm surprised that something like that would even make the news in the U.S.
I agree that in retrospect more security could have been provided in Benghazi and a more straightforward account of the event could have been given, but you could say exactly the same thing about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on a scale about 1,000 times greater than the Benghazi attack, and yet the media has seemingly completely lost interest in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Looks to me like a tempest in a teapot.
Disagree. They knew Libya was a shit hole full of terrorists, they KNEW it was active but wanted to put it in the "win" column so they had our guys in a poorly defensible area, understaffed.
I don't care if it sends the wrong message, as jacked as that country is we should have had more guys and our "Embassy" should have been a fortress, not the local BnB we converted to house our diplomat and a handful of bodyguards.
TennPaGa wrote:
For those who chose "I think there were some major mistakes made and hope they come to light"... In your view, has this occurred (i.e. have the major mistakes come to light)? If not, what needs to happen for you to be satisfied?
Simonjester wrote:
i wonder how much of it is Obama hate/democrat hate that wants this to be a big deal, and how much is non partisan wishing the tide would finally turn, has us wishing "this is the one", "this is the time they will expose and prosecute ".
i know both sides do the same thing, each with awful results... i think i am always hoping with each new scandal the people would finally be fed up enough to say "enough"....
Perhaps you noticed the stories on CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN on Bengazi? Oh wait, there weren't any.
The progressive media has a valuable function by keeping non-progressive politician's on their toes and being an adversary. It is of course better when they just ask difficult questions as opposed to Dan Rathering (making up things).
Anyway if there were the sort of new stories reporting the facts in a number of major news outlets, that would more than satisfy me.
It was good being the party of Robin Hood. Until they morphed into the Sheriff of Nottingham
I'm not sure why we had an "embassy" in post-revolution Libya in the first place.
What business did we have there during that period?
It seems to me that any U.S. presence in a place like that during a time like that is likely to do more harm than good.
Imagine if the U.S. fell into chaos because of an insurrection and Iran and North Korea sent some diplomats over here to set up embassies in Kentucky and Mississippi. Would anyone be surprised if those embassies were attacked by any number of groups that didn't want them there?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Are people thinking that the security levels at the Benghazi embassy were decisions made by Hillary Clinton herself?
When the story first broke I thought to myself that Clinton likely had to be briefed on 90% of the background because a Secretary of State is simply not going to know that much about the details of every single diplomatic outpost of the U.S. all over the world, including things like levels of security at individual embassies.
If anyone screwed up in determining security levels, doesn't it seem likely that it was someone below the rank of Secretary of State? Surely those are decisions made by someone at a lower level.
I still think that a better approach than building a fortress for U.S. diplomats to hide in would be to simply not have any U.S. diplomatic presence there at all and let the Libyans work out their own internal problems for themselves.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
MediumTex wrote:
I'm not sure why we had an "embassy" in post-revolution Libya in the first place.
What business did we have there during that period?
It seems to me that any U.S. presence in a place like that during a time like that is likely to do more harm than good.
Imagine if the U.S. fell into chaos because of an insurrection and Iran and North Korea sent some diplomats over here to set up embassies in Kentucky and Mississippi. Would anyone be surprised if those embassies were attacked by any number of groups that didn't want them there?
That's an equally good point, but the argument stands that if the State Department decides to put an embassy in a post-revolution disaster like Libya, it has to make it defensible.
I agree 100% on not having an embassy there at all.
MediumTex wrote:
If anyone screwed up in determining security levels, doesn't it seem likely that it was someone below the rank of Secretary of State? Surely those are decisions made by someone at a lower level.
Based on what? You don't know for sure. Finding out is relevant.
Discussions of policy are relevant going forward, but irrelevant in this discussion which is about what actually happened.
It was good being the party of Robin Hood. Until they morphed into the Sheriff of Nottingham
MT...i really didn't like your view initially, but i'm finding myself more and more in alignment w/ your view here.
What had really bugged me before was the admin lying to the public, and blaming an amateur video, for the troubles...you are right, these are shameless politicians who will stoop to any level to save their skins...no surprise there.
Benko wrote:
Discussions of policy are relevant going forward, but irrelevant in this discussion which is about what actually happened.
How about this as a compromise? We can have that discussion, and then right afterwards, we can have the discussion about just what we've been doing in Afghanistan for 12 years. If it's important to find out all the nitty-gritty details of why and how lax embassy security contributed to the deaths of four Americans in an overseas terrorist attack in an unstable country, surely it's at least as important to figure out what our mission is in a country we invaded more than a decade ago and have been occupying since then, with varying degrees of success but without a clear victory condition or exit strategy.
A war, I might add, that's resulted in the deaths of over 2,000 Americans (500 times as many as Benghazi) and the wounding of more than 23,000 (3,200 times as many as Benghazi).
Deal?
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Benko wrote:
Perhaps you noticed the stories on CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN on Bengazi? Oh wait, there weren't any.
Yes there were.
Anyway if there were the sort of new stories reporting the facts in a number of major news outlets, that would more than satisfy me.
As I recall there were daily stories on the broadcast networks (you forgot to include PBS in your list) in the aftermath of the Benghazi attack, including stories that speculated on the impact of the bunglement on the upcoming USA elections and Sec. Clinton's future in politics. And there were ALL-DAY stories on CNN, MSNBC, etc. during this time.
The stories continued after the elections. So did the hearings. Have you already forgotten Sec. Clinton testifying in those weird, post concussion/brain bleed eyeglasses, in heated exchanges with republican congressmen? That was in... January. Here it is, weird glasses and all:
Something tells me that no matter what evidence is brought forth, you will not be satisfied. If Obama resigned the presidency and moved "back" to Kenya ever Benghazi, you would not be satisfied. There is no satisfaction in living within an echo chamber.
Regarding embassy security, things are not so black and white:
Those who are now second-guessing what happened in Benghazi three weeks ago should recall the efficiency-security relationship. A United States Embassy’s main job is not to huddle in a bomb-proof pile of masonry – it is representing the president and the American people in a foreign country. A good ambassador is an active ambassador, out among the local population speaking and promoting U.S. interests, which is precisely what Ambassador Chris Stevens was doing when he was killed in a terrorist attack. If Ambassador Stevens wanted to be safe, he could have stayed in a fortress-like building in Tripoli surrounded by Marine guards, but instead he believed that he should be visible and accessible. That is called diplomacy. He certainly understood that there was risk involved, but he also believed in doing his job the right way, for which he should be commended.
The author of the piece, Phillip Giraldi, is an ex-CIA officer
He also requested additional security, multiple times if I remember and was denied, and deserves to be commended for continuing to do his job despite knowing he was being hung out to dry.
Completely agree that all administrations screw up and get people needlessly killed. I get that. What angers me about the Benghazi affair is the total and complete lack of accountability that is representative of our entire government. Nobody has or will be fired for incompetence. If Hilary has said the State dept has screwed up and she had initiated an investigation and fired those responsible, I would have applauded. Likewise if Hilary is investigated and if it's shown she screwed up she should be fired.
I personally saw in the military, when some General or Colonel screws up and recklessly endangers people or gets people killed, nothing happens to them. They continue to be the people in charge no matter how stupid or incompetent they are. Same thing holds true for the State department.
The only time in DoD when people were held accountable for their actions was when SecDEf Robert Gates shitcanned AF Chief of staff Gen Mosely and Sec of the AF Wynn for incompetence. Gates became a hero in my eyes.
Suppose I work for a private company and lose my company millions of dollars through my incompetence. Do you think I'd be fired? Or would I continue on with my job, business as usual.
So, yes, administrations screw up. But we as citizens should always demand accountability of our government
FarmerD wrote:
Suppose I work for a private company and lose my company millions of dollars through my incompetence. Do you think I'd be fired? Or would I continue on with my job, business as usual.
It would probably depend on your position.
If you were the CEO you might be able to hang around for a long time, especially if you had a board full of sheep.
When you were finally fired you might actually get more money than if you had stayed because of the employment agreement that the sheep on the board agreed to. See Bob Nardelli's tenure at Home Depot for a great example of this "failing into riches" phenomenon.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
I don't disagree with what you've said, but, as others are saying, let's put it in perspective. We have only "so much" holding accountable we can do. Should we spend the lions share of it, and demand "cleaning house," upon the death of 4 people in a 3rd world war zone? Furthermore, the people screaming for "holding accountable" often have just as much if not more bias and fact-skewing nature than those that actually screwed up, so we're all left with a big question as to who to believe. It's VERY difficult to get straight facts after a "scandal" because talking heads of the other party are doing their absolute darnedest to makea mountain out of a molehill while the administration is trying to make a molehill out of a mountain. Which is it? I really don't know... but if the death toll is 4 and the worst people can come up with is "there were requests made for security that were ignored," I'm sorry but this is just not that high on the list of things worth holding people accountable for.
I remember the dems (who voted for the Iraq war) realizing that it was a convenient time to use the war they voted for to bitch and moan and make Bush look bad (which he was, but that's not the point), instead of trying to think of a constructive solution to put a top back on Pandora's Box. Some people were calling for a military/diplomatic surge, which actually seemed to work. At that point, I wasn't really against it, because in the end this isn't about blaming Bush... it's about saving lives and hopefully salvaging some sort of peaceful, stable country out of the mistake we made. So I was just as annoyed with Dems in the mid-2000's as Bush for the same reason I discuss here. It's a huge political game and we can't really trust anyone. The accusers are just as manipulative and misleading about facts as the Administration, in general, IMO.
If I was re-born in 1920, and had the next 80 years to decide what to try to get in a big uproar over, if I'm holding the threshhold to the Benghazi incident, I'm going to spend my live in constant outrage.
No, I think I'll "hold the government accountable" when the stakes at least get into the hundreds of lives.
In the end, wars aren't nearly as "complex" as we make them out to be. Of course, deploying men to try to kill other men that will try to defend themselves is going to deal with some very complex decisions. But essentially, you're committing one of the most coercive acts a government can short of genocide.
And regarding firing people, we're dealing with life-or-death situations here. As much as I dislike the Bush admin, I think I would have struggled with replacing his entire cabinet involved with the war and all the top generals. And as a practical matter, if we used Benghazi as a threshhold for firing officials, we'd probably have very little continuity in the executive branch of the federal government involving security.
Last edited by moda0306 on Tue May 14, 2013 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
moda0306 wrote:
And as a practical matter, if we used Benghazi as a threshhold for firing officials, we'd probably have very little continuity in the executive branch of the federal government involving security.
OK by me. I say let the chips fall where they may. That's the only way these people seem to learn.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
- H. L. Mencken
I don't disagree with what you've said, but, as others are saying, let's put it in perspective. We have only "so much" holding accountable we can do. Should we spend the lions share of it, and demand "cleaning house," upon the death of 4 people in a 3rd world war zone? Furthermore, the people screaming for "holding accountable" often have just as much if not more bias and fact-skewing nature than those that actually screwed up, so we're all left with a big question as to who to believe.
But in the end, nobody is ever held accountable for anything. To me, getting people needlessly killed is at the highest priority for disciplinary action. Name even one high level govt bureaucrat who was ever fired for incompetence or stupidly getting people killed. I’m not talking about differences in opinion regarding policy, I’m taking incompetence
TennPaGa wrote:
[
Apparently, it wasn't always this way in the military.
[
I give that article a strong Hoo-ah! John T Reed’s military article’s are spot on. High Ranking generals achieve their positions by being weasley suck ups. I suspect high level government bureaucrats achieve their positions in much the same way.
“In other words, the basic suck-up problem is one of all large bureaucratic organizations, not just the military. But there can be little doubt that the military is by far the worst suck-up organization because of its monopoly on military careers, the extremely generous golden handcuffs in the form of lavish retirement benefits that discourage military officers from switching to another employer (the tenure trap), the lack of objective performance data like the financial reports in private business, and the unquestioned power given to each and every officer to end the career competitiveness of any of his subordinates with the flick of a pen on the officer’s efficiency report.”?
In other words, If you have some boss who doesn’t like you for whatever petty reason, you will get screwed over. Meanwhile, those high ranking people never face scrutiny or are held accountable for their incompetence.
This is obfuscating what Iraq and Vietnam and the like TRULY WERE. The facts on the table were deliberately manipulated to send us to an unnecessary war that would surely be much more gruelling than was being touted. This wasn't a "difference in opinion regarding policy." In fact, it's even worse than incompetence (though there was plenty of that involved, too, on far larger scales than Benghazi). This was unethical manipulation of facts to send us to war. Far worse. Full stop. I'll take incompetence before manipulation to war, anyday... though I'm not writing off gross incompetence either...
I mean an occupational war declared "accomplished" well before anything actually had been? That's not incompetence? Maybe, just maybe, there was legitimate "disagreement" and not just manipulation behind thinking Iraq would be quick and easy. However, that means there was gross incompetence that should have been placed on the Bush admin's lap far, far beyond Benghazi.
So maybe I misinterpreted you, but do you really think Iraq was a legitimate "difference in opinion regarding policy" and little more, and Benghazi is an example of unique gross incompetence?
EDIT: Completely misinterpreted what you were saying. Disregard this entire post.
Last edited by moda0306 on Tue May 14, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
"Differences in opinion regarding policy."
...
So maybe I misinterpreted you, but do you really think Iraq was a legitimate "difference in opinion regarding policy" and little more, and Benghazi is an example of unique gross incompetence?
I think you are misinterpreting. My read of FarmerD's post is that he thinks higher-ups are generally removed/leave due to policy disagreements and are rarely fired for plain old incompetence, even though there is plenty of incompetence in evidence.
Ah... makes much more sense.
Sorry, F-2-tha-D.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
"Differences in opinion regarding policy."
...
So maybe I misinterpreted you, but do you really think Iraq was a legitimate "difference in opinion regarding policy" and little more, and Benghazi is an example of unique gross incompetence?
I think you are misinterpreting. My read of FarmerD's post is that he thinks higher-ups are generally removed/leave due to policy disagreements and are rarely fired for plain old incompetence, even though there is plenty of incompetence in evidence.
Ah... makes much more sense.
Sorry, F-2-tha-D.
Actually I'm in complete agreement with you regarding Iraq. I was actually stationed at a "jump off' base in Oman for my CBRNE expertise. I knew Iraq had no nukes and even if they had any Chemical agents, they had no real means of delivering those agents.
So did anyone in in the CIA, NSA or other intelligence arms gets fired for giving bad intelligence to the president about Iraq? Did any generals get fired for allowing Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan or failing to provide armored personnel carriers or underestimating the long term military committment in Iraq? Sadly the answer is NO and good people paid the price for it.
FarmerD wrote:
So did anyone in in the CIA, NSA or other intelligence arms gets fired for giving bad intelligence to the president about Iraq? Did any generals get fired for allowing Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan or failing to provide armored personnel carriers or underestimating the long term military committment in Iraq? Sadly the answer is NO and good people paid the price for it.
I guess they are sort of like Wall Street CEOs, except in a military rather than financial setting.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
moda0306 wrote:
I really don't know... but if the death toll is 4 and the worst people can come up with is "there were requests made for security that were ignored," I'm sorry but this is just not that high on the list of things worth holding people accountable for.
I find this incredibly sad. Pathetic even.
This isn't war. We had no troops on the ground involved in the "liberation" of Libya. This was the protection detail for one of our embassies and our ambassador was killed. We expect to lose troops in war, we don't expect to have our ambassadors murdered. When an unexpected action results in a loss of live, we should be holding people accountable, regardless of whether you find it a trivial number or not. I don't expect Hillary Clinton or Obama to be fired over this, because I don't think they were involved in the decisions that lead to the deaths, but I expect that whoever denied the repeated requests for additional security in light of evidence of increased terrorist activity should be fired and relegated to flipping burgers. I expect that there should be a review of the policies that lead to this situation and steps taken to try and make sure it doesn't happen again, either by not having embassies in high risk areas (unlikely) or by making sure they have increased security.
That's what it means to hold people accountable, not a witch hunt or a political smear job. It takes very little resources and doesn't need to be broadcast on CNN, FoxNews, NBC, MSNBC, ABC, and CSPAN. We should always hold people accountable for their failures and people should always take accountability for their failures. That doesn't necessarily mean that people need to be fired when they fail, but we seem to have gotten into the habit of sweeping failure under the run in Washington and hoping it will go away, banking on that notoriously short American attention span and memory. That's not a recipe for success.
Now, maybe we don't have the quality of leadership to do any of this, but this is what SHOULD happen and there isn't a single good reason for why it can't.
moda0306 wrote:
I really don't know... but if the death toll is 4 and the worst people can come up with is "there were requests made for security that were ignored," I'm sorry but this is just not that high on the list of things worth holding people accountable for.
I find this incredibly sad. Pathetic even.
This isn't war. We had no troops on the ground involved in the "liberation" of Libya. This was the protection detail for one of our embassies and our ambassador was killed. We expect to lose troops in war, we don't expect to have our ambassadors murdered. When an unexpected action results in a loss of live, we should be holding people accountable, regardless of whether you find it a trivial number or not. I don't expect Hillary Clinton or Obama to be fired over this, because I don't think they were involved in the decisions that lead to the deaths, but I expect that whoever denied the repeated requests for additional security in light of evidence of increased terrorist activity should be fired and relegated to flipping burgers. I expect that there should be a review of the policies that lead to this situation and steps taken to try and make sure it doesn't happen again, either by not having embassies in high risk areas (unlikely) or by making sure they have increased security.
That's what it means to hold people accountable, not a witch hunt or a political smear job. It takes very little resources and doesn't need to be broadcast on CNN, FoxNews, NBC, MSNBC, ABC, and CSPAN. We should always hold people accountable for their failures and people should always take accountability for their failures. That doesn't necessarily mean that people need to be fired when they fail, but we seem to have gotten into the habit of sweeping failure under the run in Washington and hoping it will go away, banking on that notoriously short American attention span and memory. That's not a recipe for success.
Now, maybe we don't have the quality of leadership to do any of this, but this is what SHOULD happen and there isn't a single good reason for why it can't.
Touche. As good citizens should always demand this out of our government leaders. The pundits on TV always try to paint these things as a Republican versus Democrat issue but it shouldn't be.
Just once I'd like to hear some government leader say, "My department screwed up. I personally will conduct an indepth investigation. If it turns out some people weren't doing their job, they'll be fired. If a procedural problem was the cause, it will be fixed ASAP. The Buck Stops here." If Hilary had said that, I'd be a big supporter of her.
Unfortunately the Buck doesn't even slow down at the desks of these department heads in DC.