taking things seriously...

[doodle]

Here is a good perspective when you begin to take things too seriously. Of course, it also opens up the possibility that you become the crazy guy who just sits all day on a park bench laughing at the whole mess.

“Living organisms, including people, are merely tubes which put things in at one end and let them out at the other, which both keeps them doing it and in the long run wears them out. So to keep the farce going, the tubes find ways of making new tubes, which also put things in at one end and let them out at the other.

At the input end they even develop ganglia of nerves called brains, with eyes and ears, so that they can more easily scrounge around for things to swallow. As and when they get enough to eat, they use up their surplus energy by wiggling in complicated patterns, making all sorts of noises by blowing air in and out of the input hole, and gathering together in groups to fight with other groups.

In time, the tubes grow such an abundance of attached appliances that they are hardly recognizable as mere tubes, and they manage to do this in a staggering variety of forms. There is a vague rule not to eat tubes of your own form, but in general there is serious competition as to who is going to be the top type of tube. All this seems marvelously futile, and yet, when you begin to think about it, it begins to be more marvelous than futile. Indeed, it seems extremely odd.”? - Alan Watts

[Gosso]

Nice!

Just thinking out loud:

So if life is ultimately stupid and meaningless, then it seems the only meaning we can gather from it is the story we tell ourselves.  I'm not sure if there is a correct story, but it seems it should at least include virtue and love. 

Ultimately there is no reason to take life seriously, but I think we should take the story we tell quite seriously.  If not then we just flop around in a depressed and anxious state, and wait for death.

I'll go back to my park bench now 

[doodle]

Nice!

Just thinking out loud:

So if life is ultimately stupid and meaningless, then it seems the only meaning we can gather from it is the story we tell ourselves.  I'm not sure if there is a correct story, but it seems it should at least include virtue and love. 

Ultimately there is no reason to take life seriously, but I think we should take the story we tell quite seriously.  If not then we just flop around in a depressed and anxious state, and wait for death.

I'll go back to my park bench now 

That sounds a bit like how I understand the Hindu view of the world. In their belief system at the core of everything is "Brahman" which then is twisted and concealed into myriad shapes by delusion called "maya". The key is to see through the veil of delusion and realize your true self as Brahman and therefore become one with everything.

In the meantime, what we are all involved in is a very realistic piece of theater....but unlike when we go to the movies, we have forgotten that this production called "life" is just an act. We take things to be serious and give them meaning because it makes this play called "life" all the more suspenseful and exciting. If the act of "life" weren't earnestly convincing to us as to its seriousness, we would quickly become bored with the whole thing and the play would come to an end before the end of the first act. 

[Pointedstick]

It's funny, the smartest people I know often have the most difficulty enjoying life. A well-formed sense of the interconnectedness of everything can just as easily lead to paralysis and depression as it can grant one a sense of wholeness.

I knew a guy in college, smartest person I'd ever met. IQ probably 170 or something. His brain moved at warp speed, and he was absolutely miserable, because he understood so many things so well that it drove him to conclude that live was meaningless and enter into destructive relationships with similarly intelligent women that he would convince himself were good for him. It was so weird to see. I consider myself smart, but I'm glad I'm not as smart as he was. It seemed to become in impediment at a certain point.

[doodle]

It's funny, the smartest people I know often have the most difficulty enjoying life. A well-formed sense of the interconnectedness of everything can just as easily lead to paralysis and depression as it can grant one a sense of wholeness.

I knew a guy in college, smartest person I'd ever met. IQ probably 170 or something. His brain moved at warp speed, and he was absolutely miserable, because he understood so many things so well that it drove him to conclude that live was meaningless and enter into destructive relationships with similarly intelligent women that he would convince himself were good for him. It was so weird to see. I consider myself smart, but I'm glad I'm not as smart as he was. It seemed to become in impediment at a certain point.

Yes, but something can also be meaningless and entertaining at the same time....like checkers, or monopoly. I don't know the details, but I assume if this fellow had really been onto things he would have been able to step out of the duality of happiness and misery / pain and pleasure. If you look at people who claim to achieve unity consciousness, Sri Ramana Maharshi for example, they seem to be constantly blissed out.

[Benko]

delusion called "maya". The key is to see through the veil of delusion and realize your true self as Brahman and therefore become one with everything.

It is paradoxical.  On one level we are not what we take ourselves to be i.e. we are not this body and this personality (sometimes called the bodymind) with the problems we think we have.  We are really something far greater and what we consider our daily life is all an ilusion i.e. maya or you can consider it a play.

On the other hand, one can't just do what one likes in this dream and our actions, imagined/dream or not do have consequences e.g. karma.

[Pointedstick]

Yes, but something can also be meaningless and entertaining at the same time....like checkers, or monopoly. I don't know the details, but I assume if this fellow had really been onto things he would have been able to step out of the duality of happiness and misery / pain and pleasure. If you look at people who claim to achieve unity consciousness, Sri Ramana Maharshi for example, they seem to be constantly blissed out.

Sure… all 12 of them. Religious leaders are venerated precisely because they're able to achieve that kind of profound spiritual consciousness. It's great to aspire to that, but I don't think you should be miserable if you can't be the Budha.

In the end, everything is meaningless if your perspective is that we're just ambulatory digestion tubes. I guess I agree with you that it's important to take pleasure in life anyway, regardless of what you believe.

[Benko]

If you look at people who claim to achieve unity consciousness, Sri Ramana Maharshi for example, they seem to be constantly blissed out.

Ramana Maharshi is indeed the real deal i.e. an enlightened being.

I can totally see where you are coming from and why it seems that he is constantly blissed out, but I do not believe that to be correct. Being blissed out is a state of being and enlightened beings are beyond such states.  Have you ever been very calm and relaxed in a room full of people freaking out over something?  best analogy I can give.  I am That "Maharaj" is another enlightened being.  He is not as photogenic as Ramana but he says as much i.e. that realized being are beyond such states.

I can send you a PDF of I am That (it is floating around the net) if you wish.

[doodle]

Yes, but something can also be meaningless and entertaining at the same time....like checkers, or monopoly. I don't know the details, but I assume if this fellow had really been onto things he would have been able to step out of the duality of happiness and misery / pain and pleasure. If you look at people who claim to achieve unity consciousness, Sri Ramana Maharshi for example, they seem to be constantly blissed out.

Sure… all 12 of them. Religious leaders are venerated precisely because they're able to achieve that kind of profound spiritual consciousness. It's great to aspire to that, but I don't think you should be miserable if you can't be the Budha.

In the end, everything is meaningless if your perspective is that we're just ambulatory digestion tubes. I guess I agree with you that it's important to take pleasure in life anyway, regardless of what you believe.

Buddhists would say that we are all Buddhas already. Becoming a Buddha is not something you get, but something that happens when you realize your true nature. Of course, you cannot become the Buddha by desiring to be the Buddha because nirvana is a state without desire. :-)

Im not saying any of this stuff because I believe it or think that therein lies the answer. I just find it fascinating to try to view life from different perspectives. Looking at life from different angles and vantage points is the equivalent to trying a new cuisine....it just adds more flavor to the whole experience. 

[doodle]

If you look at people who claim to achieve unity consciousness, Sri Ramana Maharshi for example, they seem to be constantly blissed out.

Ramana Maharshi is indeed the real deal i.e. an enlightened being.

I can totally see where you are coming from and why it seems that he is constantly blissed out, but I do not believe that to be correct. Being blissed out is a state of being and enlightened beings are beyond such states.  Have you ever been very calm and relaxed in a room full of people freaking out over something?  best analogy I can give.  I am That "Maharaj" is another enlightened being.  He is not as photogenic as Ramana but he says as much i.e. that realized being are beyond such states.

I can send you a PDF of I am That (it is floating around the net) if you wish.

You already sent it to me. :-) I randomly read through it per your suggestion. Thanks!

[MediumTex]

I think that shattering illusions can go from lively sport when you are young to a pointlessly destructive activity when you are more mature (and this goes for your own illusions as well as those of others).

There is an art to enjoying the gifts Santa Claus brings without thinking about it too much.

When it comes to Santa (and many things in life), deep thinking and reflection can leave you without any presents if you're not careful.

An untempered search for the raw "truth" can often turn into something akin to a pie eating contest where the first prize is more pie.

I have learned this the hard way several times.

[MachineGhost]

Party poopers!!!

I find it so annoying that so many people feel it is worth wasting time worshipping or studying "enlightened beings" as if that was the answer to anything.  They're not enlightened, they're just lazy.  If such gurus could convince me that by sitting crosslegged and meditating like a lazy bum allowed them to fully grok that the purpose of life is learning that you create your own reality, then I'll change my tune.  But I suspect they're just addicted to perpetually achieving the nirvana hallucinotion which is just getting off on yet another drug state.  If you want to achieve nirvana, then kill yourself.  Don't seek it while you're breathing and alive as a biological being in a physical universe composed of matter, chemistry and physics.  Denial is not a river in Egypt.

[doodle]

I think that shattering illusions can go from lively sport when you are young to a pointlessly destructive activity when you are more mature (and this goes for your own illusions as well as those of others).

There is an art to enjoying the gifts Santa Claus brings without thinking about it too much.

When it comes to Santa (and many things in life), deep thinking and reflection can leave you without any presents if you're not careful.

An untempered search for the raw "truth" can often turn into something akin to a pie eating contest where the first prize is more pie.

I have learned this the hard way several times.

I somewhat agree. I am much more brazen in this forum than in real life.

This actually is a deep philosophical question you bring up....namely can you truly be happy living in an illusion? Is living in an illusion any different from being hooked up to one of those Matrix like machines? Do deception and illusion provide a firm foundation for a happy life?

No offense, but your argument above sounds similar to that of the Athenians who put Socrates to death for corrupting the youth and disturbing the order through his constant questioning of established beliefs.

My hearers imagine that I myself possess the wisdom which I find lacking in others. But the truth is, Men of Athens, that only god is wise. And by his oracle he wanted to show us that the wisdom of men is worth little or nothing. It is as if he was telling us, "The wisest man is the one who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing." And so I go about the world obedient to god. I search and question the wisdom of anyone who seems to be wise. And if he is not wise, then to clarify the meaning of the oracle I show him that he is not wise. My occupation completely absorbs me and I have no time for anything else. My devotion to the god has reduced me to utter poverty.

There is something more. Young men of the richer classes, who do not have much to do, follow me around of their own accord. They like to hear pretenders exposed. And sometimes they imitate me by examining others themselves. They quickly discover that there are plenty of people who think they know something but who really know nothing at all. Then those people also get angry at me. "This damnable Socrates is misleading our youth!" they say. And if somebody asks them, "How? What evil things does he do or teach them?" they cannot say.

But in order not to appear at a loss, these people repeat the charges used against all philosophers: that we teach obscure things up in the clouds, that we teach atheism, and that we make the worst views appear to be the best. For people do not like to admit that their pretensions to knowledge have been exposed. And that, fellow Athenians, is the origin of the prejudices against me.

Socrates' speech provides a remarkable example of what philosophy is. Philosophy is the quest for wisdom: an unrelenting devotion to uncover the truth about what matters most in one's life. This quest is undertaken in the conviction that a life based on an easy, uncritical acceptance of conventional beliefs is an empty life. As Socrates puts it, "The unexamined life is not worth living." Philosophy is a quest that is difficult, not only because it requires hard thinking but also because it sometimes requires taking positions that are not shared by those around us.

[doodle]

Party poopers!!!

I find it so annoying that so many people feel it is worth wasting time worshipping or studying "enlightened beings" as if that was the answer to anything.  They're not enlightened, they're just lazy.  If such gurus could convince me that by sitting crosslegged and meditating like a lazy bum allowed them to fully grok that the purpose of life is learning that you create your own reality, then I'll change my tune.  But I suspect they're just addicted to perpetually achieving the nirvana hallucinotion which is just getting off on yet another drug state.  If you want to achieve nirvana, then kill yourself.  Don't seek it while you're breathing and alive as a biological being in a physical universe composed of matter, chemistry and physics.  Denial is not a river in Egypt.

The enlightened being would smile at you kindly as he watched you getting so worked up and flushed by his laziness. :-)

[Pointedstick]

This actually is a deep philosophical question you bring up....namely can you truly be happy living in an illusion? Is living in an illusion any different from being hooked up to one of those Matrix like machines? Do deception and illusion provide a firm foundation for a happy life?

This is where I'll get back to intelligence. My experience has been that highly intelligent people have a more difficult time being happy with an illusion than less intelligent people. But stripping one's life of illusions is an ultimately impossible task, so people whose intelligence makes them unhappy with this siate of affairs must somehow come up with a method to be happy anyway.

High intelligence allows you to solve many problems very quickly and easily, but also introduces new ones. You can tie yourself up in knots over philosophy while other people are contentedly pursuing their (perhaps illusory) goals.

[Benko]

Party poopers!!!

I find it so annoying that so many people feel it is worth wasting time worshipping or studying "enlightened beings" as if that was the answer to anything.  They're not enlightened, they're just lazy.  If such gurus could convince me that by sitting crosslegged and meditating like a lazy bum allowed them to fully grok that the purpose of life is learning that you create your own reality, then I'll change my tune.  But I suspect they're just addicted to perpetually achieving the nirvana hallucinotion which is just getting off on yet another drug state.  If you want to achieve nirvana, then kill yourself.  Don't seek it while you're breathing and alive as a biological being in a physical universe composed of matter, chemistry and physics.  Denial is not a river in Egypt.

"They're not enlightened, they're just lazy."
Uh no.  For all but the lucky very few, it took a LOT of hard work to get where they are.

"But I suspect they're just addicted to perpetually achieving the nirvana hallucinotion which is just getting off on yet another drug state"

It can seem that way, but that is not what is really going on either. That is a common misbelief though. 

MG we all go through life sleepwalking.  The large majority of our actions come from our programming i.e. as children we are programmed by society and our parents.  Plus we spend a lot of our time seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.  What would someone be like who was more awake?  someone who did not sleepthrough life, who can do what is approriate in any situation?  someone who was free of this programming?

Read The Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham if you want to see an example of such a person.

Even taking tiny baby steps toward waking up can make ones life infinitely better.

Party poopers!!!

I find it so annoying that so many people feel it is worth wasting time worshipping or studying "enlightened beings" as if that was the answer to anything.

agreed worshiping and studying enlightened beings is a fools errand, enlightenment is entirely a do it yourself project. nobody can do it for you. the writings of others may provide insight or direction but its all just words till you do the work.

They're not enlightened, they're just lazy. If such gurus could convince me that by sitting crosslegged and meditating like a lazy bum allowed them to fully grok that the purpose of life is learning that you create your own reality, then I'll change my tune. But I suspect they're just addicted to perpetually achieving the nirvana hallucinotion which is just getting off on yet another drug state. If you want to achieve nirvana, then kill yourself. Don't seek it while you're breathing and alive as a biological being in a physical universe composed of matter, chemistry and physics. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

i think enlightenment is real and worthwhile to pursue but no matter how many times some "sit on his ass guru" tells his students "i am no different from you" he is lying or has failed to notice that by making his living siting on his ass teaching others something "that cant be taught only learned" he has set himself up to be different from you...
lazy and getting payed to hang out in a drug state is probably true of any enlightened being you can name.. the ones that truly are no different from the rest of us are indistinguishable from the rest of us...

[MachineGhost]

The enlightened being would smile at you kindly as he watched you getting so worked up and flushed by his laziness. :-)

Does the "enlightened" being move out of the way while I pee on him?

[doodle]

This actually is a deep philosophical question you bring up....namely can you truly be happy living in an illusion? Is living in an illusion any different from being hooked up to one of those Matrix like machines? Do deception and illusion provide a firm foundation for a happy life?

This is where I'll get back to intelligence. My experience has been that highly intelligent people have a more difficult time being happy with an illusion than less intelligent people. But stripping one's life of illusions is an ultimately impossible task, so people whose intelligence makes them unhappy with this siate of affairs must somehow come up with a method to be happy anyway.

High intelligence allows you to solve many problems very quickly and easily, but also introduces new ones. You can tie yourself up in knots over philosophy while other people are contentedly pursuing their (perhaps illusory) goals.

Why are so many Americans on depression medication then if these material illusory goals are so satisfying?

Epicurus, is an interesting person to read on the subject of happiness. He was somewhat of a hedonist in that he believed that happiness was the purpose of life. The necessary elements of happiness according to him were: 1. friends 2. freedom 3. time to reflect and analyze life.

He was also a loud opponent to the corrupting and distracting force of advertising and marketing to pull men away and confuse them that happiness was something that could be purchased. To me, I presently see a world gone mad with consumerism. It isn't that we want to spend so much time and effort working and buying things (and destroying our environment in the process), its that we have been brainwashed into thinking that this is the way to achieve a happy life. We suffer so much stress and strain to produce and consume way above and beyond what is necessary to survive (or to maintain the 'vital heat"...a Thoreau called it) because we haven't taken the time as individuals to think through the predominant social conditioning we are flooded with. The science is clear, despite enormous increases in consumption our overall levels of happiness have flatlined or even declined. Yet, despite this evidence we still think that we need more work and economic growth to reach some perceived promised land.

Practically speaking, I think that philosophy could help to kill this insane rat race culture that we have constructed for ourselves and replace some of these unhealthy material idols with more healthy ones that lead to a more profound sense of contentment.

[MachineGhost]

MG we all go through life sleepwalking.  The large majority of our actions come from our programming i.e. as children we are programmed by society and our parents.  Plus we spend a lot of our time seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.  What would someone be like who was more awake?  someone who did not sleepthrough life, who can do what is approriate in any situation?  someone who was free of this programming?

Isn't that what I was arguing?  An "enlightened" being is not awake anymore so than the sleep-walkers.  They're just asleep in a different way.  How does sitting around waxing poetic and mentally masturbating about the connectedness of the universe have anything to do with being "wide awake"?  We're not non-corporal beings; we're flesh incarnate and escaping physical reality to the mind is a travesty of life.

But, I will read your book and see if my prejudices don't match.  I'm very anti-guru and very anti-mysticism.

[cnh]

The enlightened being would smile at you kindly as he watched you getting so worked up and flushed by his laziness. :-)

Does the "enlightened" being move out of the way while I pee on him?

Pity.  I was really hoping that MG would be given "the final word" on this topic.  Priceless!

[doodle]

The enlightened being would smile at you kindly as he watched you getting so worked up and flushed by his laziness. :-)

Does the "enlightened" being move out of the way while I pee on him?

Pity.  I was really hoping that MG would be given "the final word" on this topic.  Priceless!

Reminds me of a story about Diogenes the Cynic who was spit on for begging in the marketplace. When asked if this offended him he replied, "not at all" because why should a fisherman have to endure the constant spray of the oceans waters when pursuing his work, and a begger not?

[doodle]

MG we all go through life sleepwalking.  The large majority of our actions come from our programming i.e. as children we are programmed by society and our parents.  Plus we spend a lot of our time seeking pleasure and avoiding pain.  What would someone be like who was more awake?  someone who did not sleepthrough life, who can do what is approriate in any situation?  someone who was free of this programming?

  We're not non-corporal beings; we're flesh incarnate and escaping physical reality to the mind is a travesty of life.

Really? Because science suggests otherwise. Maybe look at some quantum physics and the famous double slit experiment and then we can discuss what the definition of "physical" or material is.

[MachineGhost]

Really? Because science suggests otherwise. Maybe look at some quantum physics and the famous double slit experiment and then we can discuss what the definition of "physical" or material is.

That's irrelevant.  We're not subatomic molecules.  We are at the highest end of the chain.

[doodle]

Really? Because science suggests otherwise. Maybe look at some quantum physics and the famous double slit experiment and then we can discuss what the definition of "physical" or material is.

That's irrelevant.  We're not subatomic molecules.

What are we made of then?

[MachineGhost]

What are we made of then?

Who cares what we're made of.  We are not them and they are not us.  Can you personally direct your subatomic molecules?