Cheese?

[Pointedstick]

After doing a lot of diet research and adopting quite a few new foods, I still haven't managed to find a firm, satisfactory answer about cheese. Some say it's great, others recommend to avoid it. What do this forum's nutritional experts say? Specifically, how are cheddar and bleu cheese in the grand scheme of things?

[Benko]

I don't have any straight answer on the topic of dairy/cheese.

I do know that if I avoid all dairy/cheese (Including yogurt) my nasal congestion goes away.  I've allergy tested (IgG for whatever that is worth) and dairy is one of my more severe, so I do usually avoid it.  There are much more complicated and possibly serious issues but I'm not sure who is right.  Best I can say is avoid all dairy, cheese, etc fora week or longer and then eat a decent quantity and see how you feel.  That will not answer some of the questions, but will at least give you a feel of how your body reacts (or does not) to the stuff.

[Kriegsspiel]

Cheeeeeese!  Didn't we lock you in a dumpster one time?


Yea... never found cheese a worthwise source of protein.  If meat wasn't subsidized, then maybe, but since it isn't, I don't see any reason to buy cheese outside of ingredients.

[Gumby]

It depends on who you ask. I believe Kurt Harris, Stephan Guyenet, Chris Masterjohn and WAPF say that raw grass-fed cheese is quite healthy for people who can tolerate it — it has a favorable Omega 3-6 ratio, a beneficial fermented food, a good source of Vitamin K2, and a good source of healthy fats, etc.

It makes sense, and I tend to believe it when I look at the history of cheese in European countries and around the world.

Unfortunately, modern cheese is very different. Even if you find artisanal grass-fed raw cheese, most pastures do not offer the amounts of Vitamin K2 that our ancestors were able to obtain.

Secondly, there are some people who believe that cheese has become quite toxic over the past few decades...

Raw cheese is going to be better for you than cooked cheese which basically has casein in it and it has denatured casein in it which is inflammatory and is link to certain forms of cancer. The other problem with cheese in general though is that toxins from the food that cows eat gets particularly concentrated in the protein part of the milk not in the fat. That's why I recommend using grass-fed butter rather grass-fed milk, or cream, or cheese. The other thing that's happening though, the cheese making process, is bacterial and/or yeast based fermentation. Each of those yeast and bacterial is actively making poisons to keep other yeasts and other bacteria from getting its food supply and then you eat them. Most people haven't heard of roquefortine yet but roquefortine is exactly the name of a toxin that is made by the roqueforti, the blue cheese, fungus. It turns out that funguses in the world at large in the last twenty years have been making a lot more toxins then they used to and this has to do with basically mutagenic spraying we've been doing to try to keep mold toxins down we've created super strains of mold that make more poisons. So eating something that's fermented out of protein is maybe not a good idea because whatever you eat, you're made out of protein, and I don't think that's a smart move. You can eat unfermented or fermented and filtered types of products that are safer than eating raw cheese. Most raw cheeses are artisan which means they don't really know which bacteria, which fungus, is involved in making it. They have a pretty good guess but they aren't using genetic testing on the stuff. You can take a risk. If it tastes good you can eat it. If you don't feel sick, don't gain weight, go for it but most people who eat cheese have bad skin over time and they don't feel as good when they eat cheese but it's a subtle difference.
Source: http://www.bulletproofexec.com/wp-conte ... -6-PDF.pdf

So, there you go... Two completely different opinions.

My feeling is that the raw grass-fed cheese that our ancestors ate was quite healthy. It was likely low in toxins and a very good source of fat soluble vitamins. However, it would be pretty tough to find cheese of that quality these days. And, it's almost impossible to find raw soft cheeses without going to Europe.

As Asprey points out, if you can tolerate raw cheese and you are generally healthy, it's probably fine for you. Everyone really needs to listen to their own body. But, as for pasteurized cheese, it's technically not that great. But, that doesn't stop me from eating it on occasion (in social settings).

There is no right answer. What works for some does not work for others.

[Gumby]

And Kresser (who is half WAPF and half Paleo) weighs in here on raw dairy/cheese...

http://chriskresser.com/dairy-food-of-t ... of-disease

[Pointedstick]

I respect Kresser a lot, so his post is encouraging. My gut is pretty healthy, I don't have SIBO or IBS, and I'm not lactose-intolerant or more gluten-intolerant than average, so I think I'm probably fine.

[Gumby]

Yep. Sounds like you're fine. And I believe Jaminet supports low to moderate raw cheese consumption for those who can tolerate it and want to enjoy it. It really can be a beneficial food depending in its source. It's just hard to find really good cheese these days.

[Benko]

I respect Kresser a lot,

I gotta laugh--I'd never run across Kressler till recently, but he is licensed acupuncturist--trained in chinese medicine/acupuncture.  TCM emphasizes that people are different and need different diets basedon what is going on with them (energetically).  How one size fits all is the diet he is recommending?

[Pointedstick]

I respect Kresser a lot,

I gotta laugh--I'd never run across Kressler till recently, but he is licensed acupuncturist--trained in chinese medicine/acupuncture.  TCM emphasizes that people are different and need different diets basedon what is going on with them (energetically).  How one size fits all is the diet he is recommending?

To his credit, Kresser doesn't have a one-size-fits-all diet; he very much recommends that people pay attention to their own bodies, and especially their gut. In fact, if I had to identify any potential flaws in his style, it would be his total obsession with the gut. It seems like he thinks that basically everything has to to with the gut one way or another!

[BearBones]

To his credit, Kresser doesn't have a one-size-fits-all diet; he very much recommends that people pay attention to their own bodies, and especially their gut. In fact, if I had to identify any potential flaws in his style, it would be his total obsession with the gut. It seems like he thinks that basically everything has to to with the gut one way or another!

Isn't choosing diet base on your gut a bit backwards? It would seem to me that the gut is more a product of our diet (along with a host of other things, most of which are  modifiable).

I know very little about it, but it would seem that the more non-pathogenic bacteria we can introduce into our gut the better (cultured products, raw garden vegetables). Most die off, but a few go on to modify our enterotype. It is a a bit like taking a community predominantly of Germans and Irish and introducing some Indian and Chinese families. The culture ultimately grows more diverse and strong from it.

Would be curious as to your take on this, Gumby.

[MachineGhost]

I respect Kresser a lot, so his post is encouraging. My gut is pretty healthy, I don't have SIBO or IBS, and I'm not lactose-intolerant or more gluten-intolerant than average, so I think I'm probably fine.

Do you fart the cheese?  Because if you do, then that is a potential sign its damaging your small intestine and being undigested before it reaches the large intestine, which it should not do.

Caseine only causes cancer when it was tested as an isolate; whey is protective against it.  Both are in milk/cheese.  Typical guru fear-mongering extrapolation.

As much as I abhor commercial cheese, there's just no substitute for low fat, part skim mozzarella.  Otherwise, I really cannot eat anything unless its true raw cheese.  In CA, only Organic Pastures sells a true raw, grass-fed cheese and its not cheap.

[MachineGhost]

potential flaws in his style, it would be his total obsession with the gut. It seems like he thinks that basically everything has to to with the gut one way or another!

A central tenet of Naturopathy is that all disease begins in the colon.  Judging by emerging modern research on the gut and the microbiome, it is scary what is being confirmed.  At some point, we're not going to be able to ignore the collective evidence just for convenience of eating whatever we bloody feel like, come hell or high water.

[Gumby]

Would be curious as to your take on this, Gumby.

Kresser offers a LOT if evidence that almost all diseases are tied to the gut-brain-skin axis. It's fascinating stuff. You and PS are both correct actually. Kresser encourages people to get lots of probiotics and prebiotics from food. But, he acknowledges that not everyone can tolerate dairy and not everyone has access to raw dairy. He also acknowledges that raw dairy can carry some risks. Nevertheless, he even wrote a great article for those who want to teach their bodies to tolerate dairy.

Chris Kresser:How to Cure Lactose Intolerance

For those who cannot tolerate dairy, there are many other ways to populate the gut with beneficial bacteria: fermented foods, and foods that feed beneficial bacteria (prebiotics) such as sweet potatoes and Jerusalem artichokes, for instance.

It's also important to understand that the key to insuring good gut health requires regular (typically daily) introduction of beneficial bacteria. It's not usually something you just set up and forget.

[Benko]

It would seem to me that the gut is more a product of our diet (along with a host of other things, most of which are  modifiable).

I know very little about it,

The gut is very complex, but it is not at all crazy e.g.

Bacterial Ecosystems Divide People Into 3 Groups, Scientists Say
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/scien ... .html?_r=0

There has been much research on
Specific Gut Bacteria May Account For Much Obesity

and there is important complex relationshipo\ between gut health and your overall immune system

[Gumby]

There has been much research on Specific Gut Bacteria May Account For Much Obesity and there is important complex relationshipo\ between gut health and your overall immune system

Yes. Immune AND mental health appear to be tied to the gut. There is a lot of evidence that people with mental issues have very bad guts. It's a two-way street — the brain can make the gut worse and the gut can make the brain worse. And improving one helps heal the other.

And gut bacteria certainly plays a role in obesity. Kresser and Stephan Guyenet talk about that role (among others) in Kresser's first podcast.

[MachineGhost]

some risks. Nevertheless, he even wrote a great article for those who want to teach their bodies to tolerate dairy.

I think you're laboring under the false impression that dairy intolerance is solely due to lactose intolerance.  It's not.  There is also milk protein allergy, which I suffer from.  Sometimes the difference is between pasteurized and raw with the milk proteins not being deranged by the former.

[Pointedstick]

How would I know that I'm allergic to something, out of curiosity? I ask because I don't think I'v ever had a really dramatic bad reaction to any food, so I'm not totally sure what to look for. Just about the only obvious physical reaction my body really seems to have to anything I eat is that un-soaked beans give me terrible gas. Are the signs of a food allergy subtle, or would you definitely know because something bad happens soon afterwards?

[MachineGhost]

How would I know that I'm allergic to something, out of curiosity? I ask because I don't think I'v ever had a really dramatic bad reaction to any food, so I'm not totally sure what to look for. Just about the only obvious physical reaction my body really seems to have to anything I eat is that un-soaked beans give me terrible gas. Are the signs of a food allergy subtle, or would you definitely know because something bad happens soon afterwards?

Well, technically a food allergy is an immediate immune system reaction that can also be life threatening, like you see with stereotypical honey or peanut allergies.  It's meditated by a different pathway than delayed onset reactions which are termed food sensitivities or intolerance.  Obviously, the gut-skin-brain pathway plays a role in the latter two, so if theres some kind of abnormal mental or skin reaction, either immediately or hours or days later, its suggestive of something wrong.  Like brain fog from eating wheat.  The only way to know for sure is to do a food challenge test, i.e. clean your diet of everything allergenic, introduce a suspect food and observe.  You have to be a highly aware person, not a protoypical meat and potatoes eating, overweight/obese man-idiot.

[Pointedstick]

I thought meat and potatoes were supposed to be good! 

[MachineGhost]

I thought meat and potatoes were supposed to be good! 

Yeah, it seems all the Grahamism's and Kelloggism's are coming back to bite me on the ass!

[doodle]

I can eat the mild stuff like mozarella, but it always confounded me how anyone could put something in their mouth that smelled worse than a ripe pair of gym socks. The whole stinky rotten cheese thing is beyond my comprehension.

[notsheigetz]

I'm kind of surprised by the diet/supplement threads among PPer's which I see as a quest for the perfect diet promising optimum health - as though it has been at all established what that might be.

Seems to me our way of thinking is entirely different when it comes to investing.

My own philosophy boils down to eat a well balanced diet, not too much of anything. Avoid junk.

Cheese is allowed under those rules.

[Pointedstick]

I'm kind of surprised by the diet/supplement threads among PPer's which I see as a quest for the perfect diet promising optimum health - as though it has been at all established what that might be.

Seems to me our way of thinking is entirely different when it comes to investing.

My own philosophy boils down to eat a well balanced diet, not too much of anything. Avoid junk.

Cheese is allowed under those rules.

I see the diet thread as the nutritional equivalent of learning about barbell vs bullet bond allocations, or I-bonds vs ETFs vs treasuries vs cold hard cash; even within the general framework of eating a healthy, balanced diet, it always helps to delve deeper into the specifics to refine your strategy.

Additionally, a "balanced diet" isn't always what intuitively makes sense, just like with investment portfolios. One might imagine that adding exposure to corporate bonds would help balance a portfolio, but it actually doesn't because they react like stocks to same kinds of events and conditions. Similarly, it might not be intuitive that a "balanced diet" would reduce or exclude grains, or that potatoes would be healthier than wheat.

Just food for thought (Ow! Ow! Okay, I'll stop...)

[BearBones]

I'm kind of surprised by the diet/supplement threads among PPer's which I see as a quest for the perfect diet promising optimum health - as though it has been at all established what that might be.

+1
Agree, it is interesting how so many here are supposedly agnostic about predicting specific economic conditions as it relates to their investing, yet so many are also very willing to place bets on what is know and unknown about an equally (or more) complex system, the human body.

I have used these discussions primarily to add other "assets" to my dietary portfolio (like pastured liver), but I am not yet willing to bet on any one.

[Gumby]

I'm kind of surprised by the diet/supplement threads among PPer's which I see as a quest for the perfect diet promising optimum health - as though it has been at all established what that might be.

+1
Agree, it is interesting how so many here are supposedly agnostic about predicting specific economic conditions as it relates to their investing, yet so many are also very willing to place bets on what is know and unknown about an equally (or more) complex system, the human body.

I have used these discussions primarily to add other "assets" to my dietary portfolio (like pastured liver), but I am not yet willing to bet on any one.

I think you guys are missing the point. We are generally seeking to improve our health and avoid chronic disease/inflammation. If you have an open mind — which I'm sensing you guys don't — it's fairly easy to listen to your own body in terms of feedback. I suppose you could call it nutrition-based biohacking.

Since I've started self-experimentating with my diet, I've managed to cure my dandruff, my rosacea, my psoriasis, I reversed my receding gum-line, I improved my mood, my mental clarity, and my immunity has improved dramatically. And I was pretty much in textbook "perfect" health — other than those minor annoyances — before I started experimenting with my diet.

How did I do it? I basically did the opposite of what the government and every mainstream doctor recommends. And the more I did my own research, the more I discovered that the conventional wisdom we've all been taught appears to be heavily influenced by lobbyists in Washington, DC.

To say that we should be "agnostic" with our diet seems misguided. Your body has observable bio-feedback mechanisms. If you find that changing your diet improves those bio-feedback mechanisms (skin, inflammation, mood, mental clarity, immunity, dental health, etc.), that's a good thing.