Rebalancing... Hormones?

[Lone Wolf]

No tolerance that I'm aware of, but I do take 2 days off a week.  I recently tried a new brand and a higher dose (750mg) than what the pineal gland releases naturally and the expected drowsiness has gone away after about a week, so maybe there is tolerance at higher than physiologic doses or the alternate brand is just weaker.  In any case, I plan to go back down to my regular dose of 250mg as that is what I'm more comfortable with.

Wait, are you sure that you mean 750 mg of melatonin?  Holy cow, that is one serious dose!  Even 25 mg is a very large amount.  I take more like 0.75mg-1.5mg if I've had some caffeine and need to get to sleep.

Yes, I would consider myself choline deficit in that I can't eat eggs and I'm a former smoker so my brain is loaded with acetylcholine receptors.  For years I had a problem with brain fog making me effectively nonfunctional for concentration and any higher level thinking unless I was partaking of legal stimulants.  It wasn't until I discovered choline supplements that I could keep the brain fog at bay and I could get off the addicting stimulants (I have minimal tolerance now from overdoing it).  I originally tried lecithin first, but I used a weird liquid GMO source and did not feel it worked compared to targeted supplements.

Ah, I didn't realize that you were so desensitized to acetylcholine.  I'm sorry to hear that, man, but it sounds like you've managed to muddle through.

Granules seem difficult to work with unless blended in a smoothie.  But I could try taking it right before bed and see what happens.

I'm not sure what the effect would be for you (as you're quite desensitized to acetylcholine) but in general I'd advise against this.  The reason is that at the beginning of the night, your body will undergo a lot of deep sleep and relatively less REM.  Acetylcholine, however, tends to set off more REM.  So high acetylcholine levels in the early morning, after "first sleep" would tend to intensify your normal REM cycles.  But early in the night, you'd be fighting your body's tendency to favor deep sleep and you'd probably wind up having a very uncomfortable night.

After "first sleep" it's a different story.  Choline with an AChE inhibitor like galantamine or huperzine-A tends to induce very intense dreaming, and often lucid dreaming, especially among those who are experienced with the phenomenon.  Anecdotally, galantamine is more effective, and it's believed to act as an acetylcholine agonist as well.

If I run across anything on repairing AChE desensitization I'll definitely let you know.

There is supposed to be some choline supplement more effective than e.g. lecithin or CDP choline.

Perhaps Alpha-GPC?  Expensive but effective stuff.

[MediumTex]

But on the other hand, you can't just replace one hormone and expect to be well forever.  Over time, it will eventually unbalance other hormones which can promote cancerific outcomes.  Pay heed, MT! 

This is an idea that everyone throws around, but no one ever seems to be able to cite any studies showing that men who took small doses of testosterone to maintain a certain healthy range saw an increase in various forms of cancer.

Can you point me to anything like that?  I would love to read more about it.

[MachineGhost]

Wait, are you sure that you mean 750 mg of melatonin?  Holy cow, that is one serious dose!  Even 25 mg is a very large amount.  I take more like 0.75mg-1.5mg if I've had some caffeine and need to get to sleep.

Oops, I meant mcg! 

Ah, I didn't realize that you were so desensitized to acetylcholine.  I'm sorry to hear that, man, but it sounds like you've managed to muddle through.

That strikes you as being desensitized rather than deficit?  I never considered that.  The CDP-Choline packs a wallop, but it is only an intermediate in the synthesis of phosphatidylcholine from choline.  Phosphatidylcholine still needs to be converted into acetycholine to be neurally useful.  CDP also releases hormones from the HPA axis, including HGH, so its possible I feel that effect more than the alleged acetylcholine synthesis as I have chronically high cortisol. 



I'm too wary to drop the three supplements and see what just the non-GMO lecithin granules alone do.  But the holidays is probably the best time to experiment like that.  BTW, I cannot tolerate SAMe.  It will having me literally shaking with nervous energy; super potent stuff for me.  TMG is tolerable and nice, but the pills are too large.  Phosphatidylserine I'm not sure works or not and it is relatively expensive; the alleged bioavailable version of that called SerosPhos actually makes me ill as do all destressing or calming herb extracts I've tried.

After "first sleep" it's a different story.  Choline with an AChE inhibitor like galantamine or huperzine-A tends to induce very intense dreaming, and often lucid dreaming, especially among those who are experienced with the phenomenon.  Anecdotally, galantamine is more effective, and it's believed to act as an acetylcholine agonist as well.

That makes sense.  My sleep is definitely effected when I take stimulating bioagents (or toxics) too close to bedtime.  Not really eager to risk going through insomina again, its not fun at all.

If I run across anything on repairing AChE desensitization I'll definitely let you know.

Couldn't increasing uptake of phosphatidylcholine induce the physiological change?

Perhaps Alpha-GPC?  Expensive but effective stuff.

I'm worried about neurotransmitter imbalances from fiddling with intermediates.  I much rather get the source closer to whole food, if possible.  I'm quitting the lecithin today to obeserve how my joints do over the next month.

[Gumby]

But on the other hand, you can't just replace one hormone and expect to be well forever.  Over time, it will eventually unbalance other hormones which can promote cancerific outcomes.  Pay heed, MT! 

This is an idea that everyone throws around, but no one ever seems to be able to cite any studies showing that men who took small doses of testosterone to maintain a certain healthy range saw an increase in various forms of cancer.

Can you point me to anything like that?  I would love to read more about it.

Chris Kresser (my favorite health detective and mainstream-medicine skeptic) had this to say about some complications with Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) in a recent podcast interview. Note that he works with patients to correct hormone imbalances, so in the following passage, he is just discussing some of the complications that can arise (in layman's terms)...

Okay so in order to fully explain what I think about this I need to give you some basic physiology in terms of how hormone regulation works in the body. It works on a negative feedback system, and the pituitary gland sits up in the brain and you can think of it as a control tower for hormones. It monitors levels of hormones in the bloodstream and when hormone levels are low, the pituitary will send a message to the particular gland that produces that hormone to increase production. And that message is in the form of stimulating hormone so you have thyroid stimulating hormone, you have follicle stimulating hormone or FSH, you have luteinizing hormone which is LH. Those are the relevant ones in testosterone production it’s luteinizing hormone that acts on the leydig cells in the testes. Okay the way this would work is if testosterone levels are low, the pituitary notices that and then will produce more luteinizing hormone so that that luteinizing hormone will stimulate the leydig cells to produce more testosterone. Does that make sense? Okay so likewise if testosterone levels are high, then you would expect the pituitary to produce less LH so that less stimulation of the leydig cells happens and less testosterone gets produced. So that’s a negative feedback system and it’s amazingly complex. We know a lot about it we’ve learned a lot but there’s still aspects of it that we don’t fully understand. For example all of the hormones that are produced in the body are produced bound to a protein. This is because hormones are fat soluble and they can’t be transported throughout the bloodstream unless they’re bound to a protein. So in the case of thyroid hormone it’s secreted attached to thyroid binding globulin, which is the protein, and in the case of sex hormones like testosterone they’re secreted attached to sex hormone binding globulin. And those protein bound hormones are inactive, so they can’t have any effect on the tissues or cells, and in order for them to have an effect they have to be cleaved from that protein carrier and we don’t understand how the body knows when to do that, or how exactly that that happens. So there’s a lot that we don’t understand about the body and as much as we like to think we do, there’s a lot that we don’t. And so here’s how this all comes into play with hormone replacement therapy.

So let’s say somebody has low testosterone, because they have low levels of luteinizing hormone which is as I just said what stimulates testosterone production. And the reason they have low levels of luteinizing hormone might be because they’ve got inflammation that is suppressing pituitary function. What happens if that person takes testosterone? Well a few things are gonna happen, number one it’s not gonna address the underlying cause of low testosterone which in this case is inflammation. It’s just like putting a band-aid over the problem it doesn’t address the underlying cause. The second thing that’s gonna happen is that it’s gonna completely bypass the body’s natural regulatory feedback mechanism which I just described. And that’s not good because we don’t know how to operate that system like the body knows how to do it. When you take testosterone what’s gonna happen is the pituitary gland’s gonna go, "oh great we've got plenty of testosterone." And it’s gonna reduce further the production of LH and of course that’s gonna mean that even less internal testosterone will be produced, which means the person taking testosterone will have to increase their dose, and guess what happens when they increase their dose? It further suppresses LH, which further reduces the amount of testosterone that the body produces. Now it’s kinda funny when we think about it and talk about it but it’s also kind of sad because I see a lot of patients in my practice, both women and men, who’ve been on supplemental hormones for a long time and the ones that are especially a problem are the creams, because the cream is usually in the free fraction state. So they are absorbed directly through the skin into the bloodstream in the free state so they’re available immediately to act on the tissues. The difference there if you take oral hormones are usually in their protein bound state and so the body still has some control, as I described it can still describe when it cleaves those protein bound hormones and makes them free and available to the tissues, but that’s not true with hormone creams. I’ve seen men who’ve been on testosterone creams, they get on the cream they feel fantastic for the first week, they’re just like oh I’m a new person, new personal records in the gym, I’m just gettin the chicks… they’re like way into it, but then a couple weeks later they start feeling bad again. Their libido’s decreased, plateaued at the gym, they just feel terrible and so what happens, they increase their dose and then they feel good again they’re back on the ball, everything’s working and then usually in less time this time around they feel bad and then they increase the dose again. At some point they’ve really screwed up their system because what happens is the body, in its wisdom in spite of our often stupidity, and that’s not directed at anyone that’s taking hormone replacement it’s just a general comment about human ‘monkey-mindness’ I guess I would call it, where we’re always trying to mess around  with things that we don’t understand and getting ourself in trouble in the process.

So what happens is the body is smart, and the body will do everything it can to protect itself from this excess testosterone exposure. One of the way it does that is by a), downregulating receptor site sensitivity, so that the receptors for thyroid hormone on the cells will become less sensitive to testosterone just like insulin resistance. And number two the body will actually downregulate the number of receptor sites on the cell for testosterone. And that’s its smart, intelligent way of protecting itself from too much free testosterone hanging around in the blood. So it’s doing everything it can to stay well in spite of us, while we’re taking the excess hormone. Over time that just becomes more and pronounced and so the big problem is that when we stop the hormone, we’re kind of in a bad way because (let’s use testosterone  as an example) not only is LH completely suppressed because of the external supplementation, which means that there will be very little internal production of testosterone, the cells have not only few receptors but the receptors they do are insensitive to testosterone. So you take somebody off testosterone hormone that’s been on it for a long time like that it’s literally like pulling the rug out from under them and there’s gonna be a period of weeks where they are very unhappy. Because it’s gonna take a while for the receptor site function to upregulate and for the cells to express more receptors and for the LH production to increase. And that’s assuming that the underlying cause is being addressed, which often would be inflammation and/or insulin resistance.

Source: http://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-ske ... episode-12

He discusses andropause, in greater detail, in the following podcast:

http://chriskresser.com/episode-14-andr ... -menopause

[MediumTex]

One of the things I wonder about with prostate cancer is whether it isn't related to low testosterone, since its occurrence corresponds to the natural decline in testosterone as men age. 

As far as inflammation goes, my understanding is that one of the things that testosterone does is regulate inflammation.

As far as the raised levels of testosterone you are getting when you take it externally, if you simply restore your body to the levels it was at when you were younger, is it right to even call such levels "raised"?  That would be like saying that if you were in an accident and lost a lot of blood and got a blood transfusion, you would then have artificially high levels of blood.

The point of testosterone supplementation is not to raise your body's levels to a higher level than would occur naturally, but rather to restore your body to a level at which it can perform its other functions more effectively.  The optimal level is where your body is still producing it and your other hormones are not getting out of whack.  Monitoring these levels periodically isn't a big deal.

If it ends badly I will certainly let you all know.

***

Human growth hormone is what scares me.  Anyone want to discuss that one in more detail?

[Gumby]

As far as the raised levels of testosterone you are getting when you take it externally, if you simply restore your body to the levels it was at when you were younger, is it right to even call such levels "raised"?  That would be like saying that if you were in an accident and lost a lot of blood and got a blood transfusion, you would then have artificially high levels of blood.

I don't think you can easily compare it to blood. I think hormones are far more complex. As Kresser explains it (and he could be wrong), your body will stop producing its own Testosterone the more you continue to supplement with Testosterone cream — because your body believes it has an ample supply of Testosterone. I suppose it would be like saying your body might think it doesn't need to produce red blood cells when you are constantly getting fresh blood transfusions. (Blood is probably a bad example to explain this).

The point of testosterone supplementation is not to raise your body's levels to a higher level than would occur naturally, but rather to restore your body to a level at which it can perform its other functions more effectively.  The optimal level is where your body is still producing it and your other hormones are not getting out of whack.  Monitoring these levels periodically isn't a big deal.

Exactly. But, I think what Kresser is saying is that if your body is only producing half of the testosterone you need it to, and then you go ahead and supplement the other missing half of testosterone with a Testosterone cream, you will eventually convince your body that it has more than enough Testosterone and it will just reduce its own Testosterone output as the receptors are satisfied with the amount of Testosterone in the body.

In other words, your body needs a deficit of Testosterone in order to get the message that it needs to produce more Testosterone. But, the only way it can actually produce more Testosterone is to fix the underlying problem as to why it's not producing enough Testosterone in the first place.

Now, Kresser could be wrong — I really don't know. But, he's explaining the difference of opinion between a mainstream doctor who prescribes hormone cream to treat an obvious symptom/problem (i.e. low Testosterone) and contrast that with a Functional Medicine practitioner who spends more time trying to fix the underlying cause of the problem — which could be anything from inflammation to who knows what. The mainstream doctor really doesn't care what the underlying problem is because if you come back to him/her with a future problem he'll have another fix for your next symptom ready to go. And he'll be able to give it to you in 15 minutes flat — the amount of time usually needed for a mainstream doctor's appointment.  Whereas the functional medical practitioner would spend more time looking for ways to fix the cause of the low Testosterone, whatever that cause might be.

In the end you have to do what you are most comfortable with. I really don't know the right answer in this case. But, he seems to be suggesting that oral hormones may be better than hormone creams because the oral hormones (or hormone supports) are perhaps better regulated by the body. Also, creams can "rub off" on unsuspecting spouses and children (which wouldn't be good). So, it sounds like he just prefers figuring out the underlying cause and using oral hormone support when appropriate.

[MachineGhost]

Human growth hormone is what scares me.  Anyone want to discuss that one in more detail?

Overblown big time.  It threatens Big Pharma so there has been a lot of unscientific propaganda against it.  It is no more harmful than replacing testosterone to physiological ranges.  As with anything, excess will cause issues.  I am currently experimenting with IGF-1 (which is what HGH causes the liver to produce).

HGH (or rHGH) is not even a hormone, it is a long amino acid chain sequence.  However, one of the issues with HGH is the negative feedback mechanism rendering it ineffective over time just as with the sex hormones.

However, after reading Kresser's explanation of the negative feedback mechanism, it worries me.  Giving the body free form testosterone does not sound like a great idea because it disrupts homeostasis control, but neither is having the liver process hormones.  So what is the safe alternative?  Grrr!

[MachineGhost]

One of the things I wonder about with prostate cancer is whether it isn't related to low testosterone, since its occurrence corresponds to the natural decline in testosterone as men age. 

It might be a correlation, but the real causation seems to be excess aromatization of testosterone into harmful estrogen ratios or metabolites.  Hence, why flaxseed lignans and other estrogen phytonutrients are beneficial, they block the harmful estrogen from attaching to and damaging the prostate gland (which starts in your 30's).

[MachineGhost]

In the end you have to do what you are most comfortable with. I really don't know the right answer in this case. But, he seems to be suggesting that oral hormones may be better than hormone creams because the oral hormones (or hormone supports) are perhaps better regulated by the body. Also, creams can "rub off" on unsuspecting spouses and children (which wouldn't be good). So, it sounds like he just prefers figuring out the underlying cause and using oral hormone support when appropriate.

But the problem here seems to be Kresser wouldn't consider age onset hormonal decline as something fixable, so it is not within the mindset of a natural-approach physician.  A "natural" 1%-2% a year drop adds up big time by the time you are 40.

Oral hormones just seems like a very bad idea as the history of birth control pills and cancer has shown.  But maybe bioidentical is still safe orally vs synthetics.  I doubt there's been any case studies.

[Benko]

Oral hormones just seems like a very bad idea as the history of birth control pills and cancer has shown.

Mens and womens bodies work differently so you cannot extrapolate reliably

[Gumby]

However, after reading Kresser's explanation of the negative feedback mechanism, it worries me.  Giving the body free form testosterone does not sound like a great idea because it disrupts homeostasis control, but neither is having the liver process hormones.  So what is the safe alternative?  Grrr!

I don't believe Kresser has a problem with supporting the liver to process excess hormones, when necessary. Here's what he had to say about liver support in a different podcast:

Steve Wright: OK, well, let’s roll on to the next one about liver detox, and this comes from Jason.  He wants to know your views, Chris, on the best methods for liver detoxification and addressing high estrogen levels.  “The liver/gallbladder flush, is it safe or effective?  Coffee enemas?  Could liver conjugation be the cause of elevated estrogens?  How, Chris, would you treat/approach elevated urinary bile acid sulfates test results?”?  So there are a lot of questions there.  Maybe we should just start with the first one.  What’s going on with liver detox and high estrogen levels?

Chris Kresser: Well, bile acids are a normal component of the blood, and are usually cleared from the blood through the liver.  And the gut-liver circulation regulates bile acid levels, and under normal circumstances, given a healthy liver, a little leaks into the bloodstream and is converted to sulfate and excreted in the urine, but in people with suppressed or diminished blood flow through the liver, you get bile acids built up in the blood, and then they’re cleared through the kidney, and then they become present at higher levels in the urine.  So high levels of urinary bile acid sulfates can be an indication of liver impairment.

So the liver, as we’ve discussed before, is the main organ of detoxification, and most toxins are fat-soluble, so the liver’s job is to convert the fat-soluble toxins into water-soluble toxins so they can be excreted through the urine and the feces.  And the liver is also responsible for clearing out excess hormones that have accumulated.  And there are basically three phases in the liver detox process, and each depends on nutrients like B vitamins, magnesium, vitamin C, and glutathione.  They are all essentially the fuel that runs the detox engine.  Usually the process functions remarkably well.  We couldn’t survive without functioning liver detoxification.  It’s going 24/7, and it’s what enables us to live and survive, so all of us can do it to some degree, but when the toxic burden is high in our lives, either environmental or food toxins, alcohol and medications, tobacco, etc., or when there are other stresses on our liver, all of that detox fuel gets used up, and the liver can’t do its job.

So definitely improving liver function can help normalize hormone levels and clear excess estrogens, and there are a lot of ways to do this.  We’ve talked about some of them, but a couple of over-the-counter products you could try, specifically for this issue of hormone clearance, would be Pure Encapsulations DIM Detox or Apex Hepato-Synergy.  The DIM Detox product has glucosinolates from broccoli that support healthy detox function.  It has DIM, which is diindolylmethane, and that promotes healthy estrogen metabolism and cell cycle activity.  It has calcium-d-glucarate, which targets beta-glucuronidase activity — I can never say that word! — enzyme activity, promoting healthy hormone detox through the glucuronidation pathway.  And then silymarin, milk thistle extract; alpha lipoic acid; n-acetylcysteine to support phase II detox, which converts the free radicals that are produced in phase I detox into less harmful substances.  And then there’s taurine, glycine, and methionine, which are amino acids that also promote phase II detox pathways and healthy cell metabolism.  So those of some of the options.  I do use these in my practice.  I do think that focusing on the liver and particularly phase I and phase II detox can help with excess hormones that have built up.  It usually takes two to three months on something like this to have a significant effect.

Steve Wright:  Is the liposomal glutathione another option that you’d use?

Chris Kresser: I am waiting to find a study… There’s one study, actually, that suggests that liposomal glutathione might be an effective delivery system.  I think we’ve talked about this before.  A lot of the studies suggest that oral glutathione is not effective, it doesn’t raise intracellular levels of glutathione, and that a more effective approach is to take the precursors for glutathione and then take things like milk thistle extract that improve intracellular recycling of glutathione.  Liposomal glutathione, for me, the jury is still out because as far as I know, there’s only one peer-reviewed study, and it was a really small study.  So I’m not saying it doesn’t work, but I’m not sure that it works.

Steve Wright:  OK.  Still a little bit new.  What about the old-school liver flushes and these coffee enemas?  Is that something that we should stay away from?

Chris Kresser:  Well, some people have a lot of success with coffee enemas.  The old-school liver flushes, I think… and some people also have success with those, but I would definitely exercise caution with them.  I’ve seen some people have some pretty bad reactions.  I think people can go overboard and get kind of addicted to them and go them too frequently.  They can be pretty traumatic on the body.  I’m more of a fan of gentler methods, in general, but certainly I know people have really benefitted from them, so I would say I’m sort of ambivalent about them.

http://chriskresser.com/the-afternoon-s ... xification

I sort of get the feeling that everyone could benefit from properly supporting the liver, but again, I could be wrong.

But the problem here seems to be Kresser wouldn't consider age onset hormonal decline as something fixable, so it is not within the mindset of a natural-approach physician.  A "natural" 1%-2% a year drop adds up big time by the time you are 40.

Interesting point. Since Kresser is trained in Chinese medicine, he would be familiar with whatever foods/herbs/techniques Eastern Medicine has traditionally used to support any hormone imbalance that might occur from the "natural" aging process. I mean isn't Eastern medicine all about keeping things in "balance"? He does support working with a licensed herbalist so I suspect he would support whatever ancient protocols were used to support healthy aging (such as acupuncture, meditation, Tai Chi, etc). I assume Benko is familiar with those sorts of recommended protocols. The benefit/risk of a 5,000 year old ancient tradition may be more easily discerned than that from a new-age hormone treatment.

[MachineGhost]

[Quote=Gumby]
I sort of get the feeling that everyone could benefit from properly supporting the liver, but again, I could be wrong.
[/quote]

That's fine as far as that goes but that is dealing with symptoms, not preventing the source of the problem.  He conveniently sidestepped answering the conjugation of hormones question which is the main risk issue with oral hormones.  Heck, as far as I know, there isn't even any oral testosterone or progesterone, just DHEA and pregnenolone (and synthetic estrogens).  Conjugation is not the same as protein-bound.

[Quote=Gumby]
Interesting point. Since Kresser is trained in Chinese medicine, he would be familiar with whatever foods/herbs/techniques Eastern Medicine has traditionally used to support any hormone imbalance that might occur from the "natural" aging process. I mean isn't Eastern medicine all about keeping things in "balance"? He does support working with a licensed herbalist so I suspect he would support whatever ancient protocols were used to support healthy aging (such as acupuncture, meditation, Tai Chi, etc). I assume Benko is familiar with those sorts of recommended protocols. The benefit/risk of a 5,000 year old ancient tradition may be more easily discerned than that from a new-age hormone treatment.
[/quote]

There is a serious lack of food/herbs/techniques for doing just that, otherwise I wouldn't be looking at free form bioidentical hormone replacement.  I'm not interested in just supporting "healthy aging" which really means tweaking symptoms of hormone decline as you continue to age, but restoring them to physiologically optimal levels of a 25-year old.  If any food/herb/technique can literally do that in over 5000 years of experience, I think there wouldn't be so much obfuscation of the subject, because we'd all be doing it with nary a second thought.

I'm starting to get the impression that Kresser is a bit of a pussy, even though hes extremely knowledgeable.  Thats a typical problem with alternative health practitioners.  They're just not radical enough when it comes to curing disease for a huge variety of reasons, mostly liability.  Contrasting that, you have mainstream physicians who will chop, bone and juice you just because it is "standard of care" and running with the herd is all they ultimately care about, even if it kills you.   But as the saying goes, you first have to walk in someone's shoes to really understand...

[Gumby]

LOL. Yeah, I know what you mean. But, I think the point is that modern hormone replacement therapy is too primitive to be done without consequences right now.

Anyway, with regards to ancient wisdom, I'd be willing to bet that somewhere in all the voodoo is something that works. I'm not saying that I know what it is, but I see a lot pictures of old Chinese people doing tai chi, and they don't seem to think it's a waste of their time for some reason. For instance, here's what people "claim" certain alternative techniques can do...

http://www.taichiqigongseattle.com/2012 ... -medicine/

I have no idea if it's a scam or not — and maybe there's a placebo effect happening — but I'd definitely check it out before slathering up with free T.

[Benko]

1. Gumby,

Tai chi, if you do it right, moves energy the same way acupuncture, chinese herbs, and yoga (again if you do) it right moves energy. So yes, it can be helpful.

2.  MG has a very aggressive and cutting edge or perhaps bleeding edge approach to supplementation.  Not sure this can be duplicated with e.g. chinese herbs.  MTs needs OTOH could certainly be met, and perhaps better with a more balanced approach e.g. what imbalances led to the test decrease, and what other benefits could be had by treating the sytem and not just the test deficiency.

Personally, I am somewhat conservative: in general I don't buy cars first year they come out, computers, even macs the first month or three they have just come out, and I certainly don't upgrade to new mac OS day or month it comes out.  The chinese herbs I was been tinkering with have been around forever. 

MG is...not sure if it is being a beta tester or alpha tester but if you get the analogy, you undrstand my concerns.

[MachineGhost]

MT,

Before you did testosterone replacement, how long would you be sore for after working out?

[MediumTex]

MT,

Before you did testosterone replacement, how long would you be sore for after working out?

It was very hard to get an intense workout because I just didn't have the energy.  When I did work out I would be sore for 1-2 days.

As far as the cause of the low T in the first place, aren't declining T levels expected to occur as one ages?

It's like asking what the cause is of wrinkled skin.  Basically, it's just an aging body.

[Benko]

aren't declining T levels expected to occur as one ages?

Not at 42.

[Gumby]

aren't declining T levels expected to occur as one ages?

Not at 42.

Didn't we just discuss how it's "normal" for T levels to plummet when you become a devoted father and are changing diapers?

[Pointedstick]

aren't declining T levels expected to occur as one ages?

Not at 42.

Didn't we just discuss how it's "normal" for T levels to plummet when you become a devoted father and are changing diapers?

To provide a contrarian perspective, I'm a devoted father who changes diapers regularly, and while I haven't gotten my T levels checked, I don't feel any less "in the mood" if you know what I mean.

Then again, I'm 25.

[MediumTex]

aren't declining T levels expected to occur as one ages?

Not at 42.

Didn't we just discuss how it's "normal" for T levels to plummet when you become a devoted father and are changing diapers?

Are we suggesting that if I could find the true cause of the low T in the first place it would be less necessary to supplement it now that it's low?

If the cause of the low T was something that could be answered, why wouldn't my doctor want to try to answer it?  It's only more money for him to perform more tests.

[Benko]

Not at 42.

Didn't we just discuss how it's "normal" for T levels to plummet when you become a devoted father and are changing diapers?

Are we suggesting that if I could find the true cause of the low T in the first place it would be less necessary to supplement it now that it's low?

If the cause of the low T was something that could be answered, why wouldn't my doctor want to try to answer it?  It's only more money for him to perform more tests.

I would make sure your prior tests included a prolactin blood test.  Assuming that is the case, and you are having periodic bloodwork to monitor test/estrogen blood levels/metabolites since test can be metabolitized to estrogen, and you may need an anti-aromatization drug to prevent test--->estrogen conversion at some point, you are doing all that I can think of (keep in mind I'm not an endocrinologist) within the confines of conventional western medicine.  That is probably "good enough" assuming you continue to do well.

My bias, and what I would do if I were in your situation, would be to find a good chinese herbalist and get checked out (they look at your tongue, feel your wrist pulses and get a history from their point of view).  Because there may very well be a chinese medicine energetic imbalance which caused the test decrease.  This is still important because it is possible that this imbalance may have other implications for your well being either now or down the line, that are not being treated by the test, but which could be dealt with by chinese herbs.  It is also possible the supplemental test is creating some stresses on your body which could be helped by chinese herbs. 

Finding a good chinese herbalist is not easy, but one session perhaps $60 could answer these questions if you find such a person.  Look under acupuncturists in your area and if you are lucky there is one good herbalist suited to help you.  If you live on west coast, it should be easy.  If major city elsewhere it can get trickier e.g. there are at least 5 decent but not great acupuncturists in Pittsburgh, and one who is supurb acupucturist and chinese herbalist.  PM if I canbe of any assistance with this.

[MachineGhost]

MT,

Before you did testosterone replacement, how long would you be sore for after working out?

It was very hard to get an intense workout because I just didn't have the energy.  When I did work out I would be sore for 1-2 days.

As far as the cause of the low T in the first place, aren't declining T levels expected to occur as one ages?

It's like asking what the cause is of wrinkled skin.  Basically, it's just an aging body.

Wow, I guess I'm really fucked then.  I'm sore for literally 5-7 days and its really painful for the first 2-3 days.  I already know my hormones are low (and have been for at least a decade), but your experience gives me better confirmation.

Wrinkled skin isn't an "aging body" as much as it is cross-linking of proteins and sugar and deterioation of collagen.  It can be prevented with the right supplements and diet, maybe even reversed.  But I think its way too late to start once you get wrinkles, it has to be proactive to prevent the problem from occuring in the first place.

[MachineGhost]

Didn't we just discuss how it's "normal" for T levels to plummet when you become a devoted father and are changing diapers?

Its normal when chronically stressed, i.e. high cortisol suppresses testosterone and DHEA.  I think this is because the cortisol pathway "steals" the DHEA or pregnenolone and can't turn into the sexual hormones.  Which is what my last hormone profile looked like, in fact.

[MachineGhost]

Are we suggesting that if I could find the true cause of the low T in the first place it would be less necessary to supplement it now that it's low?

If the cause of the low T was something that could be answered, why wouldn't my doctor want to try to answer it?  It's only more money for him to perform more tests.

Did you doctor decide your T was low relative to your lab range, or low relative to a 25-year old?

I suspect your doctor probably knows just enough to be dangerous, but is not an expert.  Endocrinologists or mainstream physicians are not biodentical hormone replacement experts.  It requires specialized training and ideally, certification.

[MediumTex]

Are we suggesting that if I could find the true cause of the low T in the first place it would be less necessary to supplement it now that it's low?

If the cause of the low T was something that could be answered, why wouldn't my doctor want to try to answer it?  It's only more money for him to perform more tests.

Did you doctor decide your T was low relative to your lab range, or low relative to a 25-year old?

I suspect your doctor probably knows just enough to be dangerous, but is not an expert.  Endocrinologists or mainstream physicians are not biodentical hormone replacement experts.  It requires specialized training and ideally, certification.

It was about half the levels I should be at for my age.