Ivy league colleges artificially limit number of Asians they admit

[FarmerD]

i heard something interesting about ivy league admissions in an video with a guy named John Taylor Gatto, he said he had done a series of interviews with the people in ivy league admissions, and that one of the things they looked for was not the "team sports or classical music type experiences" you typically might expect, but the solo sports guy that sailed around the world or the extreme skier or the person that wrote their own music.  that they looked for signs of independents self starting and creativity,  not the conformists or people that master reproducing other peoples works of genius through endless repetition.

interesting if true... it probably does not change the fact they have racial quotas as well, but it might change the type of resume you want your kids to have if sending them to a high end school is your goal...

I heard the same thing from a counselor once.  The counselor said it would look better if I had traveled the world, trekked through the jungles of Borneo, or attended some art school in France or some such.  The counselor explained that I was NOT well rounded - You see by the time I was 18 I had never traveled out of our state, flown in an airplane, been in or boat or taken a vacation nor had I ever taken music or art lessons.  I guess working full time since I was 12 on our family farm didn't count. I wasn't exotic enough to draw anyone's attention from a prestige school. 
 

[Benko]

Yes, I heard the same comments when I was applying to college (>30 years ago).  But one is exampt from those criteria if you fit the PC agenda.

[Pointedstick]

Yes, I heard the same comments when I was applying to college (>30 years ago).  But one is exampt from those criteria if you fit the PC agenda.

That's pretty much true. I wrote these beautiful essays about social justice and economic exploitation and progressive taxation and other marxist nonsense and the admissions officers ate it up. For that matter, so did my high school teachers.

Shame it doesn't get you very far in the real world if you actually want to make any money. I had to unlearn a lot.

[FarmerD]

Yes, I heard the same comments when I was applying to college (>30 years ago).  But one is exampt from those criteria if you fit the PC agenda.

That's pretty much true. I wrote these beautiful essays about social justice and economic exploitation and progressive taxation and other marxist nonsense and the admissions officers ate it up. For that matter, so did my high school teachers.

Shame it doesn't get you very far in the real world if you actually want to make any money. I had to unlearn a lot.

Sounds like you've had to seriously realign your world outlook.  You must be quite an independent thinker considering all the teachers/counselors egging you on to be a social radical.       

[Pointedstick]

Sounds like you've had to seriously realign your world outlook.  You must be quite an independent thinker considering all the teachers/counselors egging you on to be a social radical.     

Parents too! My hardcore liberal democrat father blew a gasket when I came out as a gun-owning Libertarian and we fought constantly for years. Nothing as silly as political ideology should get between family. It's so ugly.

I don't intend to attempt to brainwash my son in any particular ideology or worldview. He'll believe what makes sense to him, and his views will no doubt change and evolve as he goes through life.

But yes, nobody ever accused me of being a conventional thinker. 

[RuralEngineer]

Ha, I've got it the other way.  My father's a hardcore religious right winger.  He's with me on the guns, but is terribly disappointed two of his children are pro-legalization (pot) and pro-gay marriage (among other issues).  Both my sister and I turned out fairly Libertarian, although I'm more towards the right edge of the spectrum than my sister, depending on the issue.

[Storm]

Storm,

Striving for "racial diversity" of the appropriate ratio IS about race. You don't honestly believe the colleges would turn away a black student with perfect SATs that plays the cello just because they just admitted 100 smart cello playing Asians, do you?

It's all about race, not what instrument the students play. You don't see a problem with what you wrote?  Blaming or condemning Asian mothers for instilling an appreciation for education that results in high achieving children doesn't strike me as particularly productive.

RuralEngineer, it's not just about race.  It's about diversity of life experiences.  That's what I was trying to convey.  The reality is that in order to make it to the top of a stack of hundreds of applications, you need some life experiences that stand out as different from the norm.  4.0, high SAT, piano playing Asian does not stand out in any way.  When you don't stand out, you are competing purely on GPA and SAT scores, and there are bound to be at least a few students that worked harder than you and are smarter than you.

Like others have said, they are looking for students that have traveled the world, speak foreign languages, and can bring diversity of cultural experiences to the University, not just diversity of race.

I probably did a poor job of communicating that, and for that, I apologize.

[Benko]

RuralEngineer, it's not just about race.  It's about diversity of life experiences.  That's what I was trying to convey.  The reality is that in order to make it to the top of a stack of hundreds of applications, you need some life experiences that stand out as different from the norm. 

Storm,

The criteria you are describing is not uniformly applied.  If you have the right ancestors, you get preferential treatment.  MAJOR preferential treatment.  It is blatently obvious.  You may prefer things this way, but denying it is like e.g. denying there is media bias.

[Storm]

RuralEngineer, it's not just about race.  It's about diversity of life experiences.  That's what I was trying to convey.  The reality is that in order to make it to the top of a stack of hundreds of applications, you need some life experiences that stand out as different from the norm. 

Storm,

The criteria you are describing is not uniformly applied.  If you have the right ancestors, you get preferential treatment.  MAJOR preferential treatment.  It is blatently obvious.  You may prefer things this way, but denying it is like e.g. denying there is media bias.

I agree, Benko, it's still not ideal.  But, then again, admissions is allowed to be biased.  These are private universities and don't receive public funds.

[FarmerD]

RuralEngineer, it's not just about race.  It's about diversity of life experiences......I probably did a poor job of communicating that, and for that, I apologize.

To me, racism and elitism are both unspoken criteria for admissions into Ivy league schools. 

Far too often it's about having the "right or politically correct diversity" of life experiences as judged by some elitist admissions bureaucrat.  When you say you want kids who traveled the globe as teens, learn several foreign languages, attended some French art school, etc, what you're really saying is you want the kids of rich, properly cultured elite bluebloods to attend your school.  You don't want some white proletarieat kid who's had to work since the age of 12 on his parents share cropped farm.  That's the kind of cultural diversity they don't want. 

BTW No need to agologise - We're all friends here.

[Pointedstick]

What FarmerD said is absolutely correct.

They actually do admit poor kids--those who aspire to the rich, cultured upper class existence. They'll choose a kid with no money who's volunteered at a soup kitchen (not a church) and made a real effort to travel and be cultured and has high proto-aristocratic aspirations over the one who worked on a farm for a decade, hunts, builds furniture, and repairs cars. Such a person probably wouldn't fit in anyway.

What they want is diversity of income, race, gender, and nationality, so long as nearly everyone agrees on the same unspoken upper crust white collar aspirations.

[Benko]

This thread was was started about racism in the name of the totalitarian light progressive agenda (hyperbole, but not by much).

All the discussions of preferred qualities are irrelevant if you are the preferred races, or e.g. asian.

Racism is wrong except when it serves your agenda (see also NY times article on recently appointed black senator).  Like any trace of religion in e.g. schools must be exterminated when it is christianity, but not when it is Islam.

[l82start]

it would be interesting to do an application experiment,  send out some with same grades, hobbies, test scores and politics but different races, others with same grades hobbies test scores and race but different politics etc....  with a large enough sample of schools and applications and see what factors are really ranked highest and where...

[MediumTex]

If I had my own university and I could admit anyone I wanted to admit with the goal of simply putting together a group of people that would generate a lively and interesting intellectual environment, I would consider race in the admissions process as one factor.  Other factors would include income, religion, national origin, political beliefs, sex, personal goals, grades, test scores and whatever else looked interesting to me.

If I wouldn't mechanically apply grades and test scores in making these decisions I wouldn't expect other universities to either.

Would it be racist of me to consider race/cultural heritage in trying to select a diverse group of students to achieve the type of group intellectual experience I was trying to create (it is my university, after all)?  I think that's about as racist as a Mexican restaurant having a hiring preference for Mexican waiters.

[l82start]

a private university, being private, can admit who they like using the criteria they like, i think the question may come down to "why they use the criteria" and towards what ends...  to "generate a lively and interesting intellectual environment," seems like a reasonable goal for a institution of higher learning, considering race isn't necessarily or automatically racist,  some how i doubt the  "lively and interesting intellectual environment," is taking the lead... it is more likely further down on the list of goals at most schools, and other political, financial or elitist goals are more important.. 

[Benko]

a private university, being private, can admit who they like using the criteria they like, i think the question may come down to "why they use the criteria" and towards what ends... to "generate a lively and interesting intellectual environment," seems like a reasonable goal for a institution of higher learning, considering race isn't necessarily or automatically racist, some how i doubt the "lively and interesting intellectual environment," is taking the lead... it is more likely further down on the list of goals at most schools, and other political, financial or elitist goals are more important..

I would consider race in the admissions process as one factor.

The topic was about race being used as the only factor to disqualify someone.  In other cases it is used as the only factor to include someone.  I saw it in people selected for my med school class, and in upper level medical training.  And no one has a choice about this.  If these biases are not used, there would be lawsuits.

[FarmerD]

If I had my own university and I could admit anyone I wanted to admit with the goal of simply putting together a group of people that would generate a lively and interesting intellectual environment, I would consider race in the admissions process as one factor.  Other factors would include income, religion, national origin, political beliefs, sex, personal goals, grades, test scores and whatever else looked interesting to me.

MT,
A few questions for you:

What exactly would you tell all the asian applicants you rejected for acceptance at your school even though their SAT's were higher than people you accepted?
What possible difference does your student body's diversity mean when you're studying medicine or architecture or engineering?  Do Asian students bring a different cultural perspective to chemistry or math than Hispanic or Black students?

[MediumTex]

If I had my own university and I could admit anyone I wanted to admit with the goal of simply putting together a group of people that would generate a lively and interesting intellectual environment, I would consider race in the admissions process as one factor.  Other factors would include income, religion, national origin, political beliefs, sex, personal goals, grades, test scores and whatever else looked interesting to me.

MT,
A few questions for you:

What exactly would you tell all the asian applicants you rejected for acceptance at your school even though their SAT's were higher than people you accepted?
What possible difference does your student body's diversity mean when you're studying medicine or architecture or engineering?  Do Asian students bring a different cultural perspective to chemistry or math than Hispanic or Black students?

I would write everyone who wasn't admitted a gracious letter thanking them for applying and wishing them the best in their academic pursuits.

As far as the difference it makes, I personally find that I have a more interesting intellectual experience when I am around people with different backgrounds, experiences and beliefs.  This forum is a good example of the kind of environment I enjoy being in.

If I have a limited number of spots available I must make choices about who will be included and I think that using many different filters is entirely appropriate.

With all that said, it's hard for me to imagine attaching much significance to race compared to other factors like raw intelligence and interesting accomplishments, other than perhaps striving to have different cultural experiences represented if I am trying to put a group of people together who will create the kind of intellectual environment I am looking for.

If I had 20 spots and I noticed that my normal selection process had caused 17 white people to be selected, I'm sure I would be inclined to take any remaining borderline candidates and favoring someone non-white over someone who was white.  That's really all I am saying.  I'm not talking about separate lower standards for certain races or deliberately excluding any particular groups.

Getting away from the racial element, though, the kind of diversity I think makes more sense for the achievement of the goals I am describing is diversity of national origin, sex, age and culture.  By this definition of diversity, you could easily have a very diverse all-white or all-Asian class.

[tgif]

Using a blinded admissions process like magnet New York City Schools will end up with a largely Asian population.  This idea of diversity being a virtue has a recent and interesting but a relatively lacking philosophical intellectual underpinning.

Being a practical minded individual, I view it much like redistributional taxes, a form of pressure relief valve for society.  As for Jews, they were discriminated against before, not just in Germany but all over the world, including the US.  But they got saavy, formed their own universities, now even successfully divert $3Bn of US Govt spending every year for Israel, more than any other country.

Chinese are lucky to have the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, changed in 1943 - to allow a measly 105 a year to enter and eventually overturned only in the 1960's.  Discrimination hurts everyone, including those who wish to call it diversity.

[TripleB]

But you guise... things have been so unfair for so long, how can we possibly make things fair without making them unfair some more first in the other direction to balance out the other unfairness??? 

[edsanville]

All I can say, is that when I go to get surgery, or take a flight on a jet, I don't care much about the diversity of the surgeon, the pilot, or the engineers who designed the jet engines.  Give me the hard-workers with impeccable academic credentials, please.

What is the real purpose of a college education?

[dualstow]

...  As for Jews, they were discriminated against before
...all over the world, including the US.  But they got saavy,
...

So true. Asians are the new Jews, as the headline & last paragraph in the OP's article suggest, not just because they excel but because of the exclusion.
A Groucho Marx quote comes to mind, although it was about entrance to a country club, not an Ivy:
"My little daughter is only half Jewish. Can she just go into the pool up to her waist?"
:-)

[Pointedstick]

All I can say, is that when I go to get surgery, or take a flight on a jet, I don't care much about the diversity of the surgeon, the pilot, or the engineers who designed the jet engines.  Give me the hard-workers with impeccable academic credentials, please.

What is the real purpose of a college education?

It depends on your mindset and your major. Some attend college to gain marketable skills that enable them to be highly-paid white collar workers in interesting and lucrative fields such as medicine and aeronautical engineering. Others see it as a big four-year party, while the saddest ones of all take useless courses in Marxist economic exploitation, Sierra Leonian tribal mask history, and American imperialist history and are shocked, shocked! when nobody out in the real world places any value on the knowledge they gained.

I went to a school with a lot of the latter group, and it broke my heart. It broke theirs too in their senior year when they realized they were no more employable than before, but many tens of thousands of dollars more indebted.

[RuralEngineer]

Diversity is nice in much the same way a sun roof in a car is nice. There are circumstances where it's beneficial, but diversity is not a virtue the way intelligence or hard work is. Certain people have been pushing this idea that diversity is a goal worth pursuing even to the detriment of real virtues and I think that's just pathetic.

Maybe if we're having a discussion about the impact of industrialization or religious theory, diversity of national origin and gender is useful. However race is not necessarily correlated with culture and diversity is of no value at all for any of the "objective" professions. Math and science doesn't care what you look like or where you're from.

Private institutions are free to admit whoever they choose, but it should be acknowledged that pursuing diversity as a virtue is of no benefit in most instances and is a direct assault on any form of meritocracy.

[MachineGhost]

What they want is diversity of income, race, gender, and nationality, so long as nearly everyone agrees on the same unspoken upper crust white collar aspirations.

What's wrong with that?  It's the American Dream!