School Shooting

[TripleB]

What would happen if a teacher suddenly lost it in a classroom and shot their students? I've seen many teachers pushed to the brink of insanity...there are a LOT of medicated teachers out there. One incident and the law that you just repealed would be back into effect immediately.

What would happen if a teacher suddenly lost it in a classroom and started violently punching one of their students? I've seen many teachers pushed to the brink of insanity... there are a LOT of medicated teachers out there... HOWEVER, how often do we hear about a teacher flipping out and beating the sh*t out of a student? I've personally never heard of it... I'm sure it has happened, but clearly it's extremely rare. It WOULD be national news.

What would happen if a student resource officer lost it in a classroom and shot the students? I've seen many police officers pushed to the brink of insanity... there are a LOT of medicated police officers out there. Maybe cops shouldn't have guns in schools either.

[doodle]

You know, its funny but in the UK basically no police officers carry guns and they are still able to maintain the peace. All the places that I have been around England seemed pretty safe. The homicide rate in England is 400% lower than the United States, and granted they have a more homogenous culture, but they still have plenty of hooliganism and rioting and disaffected youth and teenagers. Because guns are so rare and hard to come by, my guess is that it would be almost impossible for a psychotic teenager to run into a school in the heat of the moment and blow away his classmates.

[TripleB]

If I were a teacher, it would make me extremely uneasy as well to know that other teachers and possibly students at the junior college were walking around with guns. I had a friend that nearly blew his head off with a rifle he didn't think was loaded and I worked with a guy whose pistol discharged into his leg while he was getting into his car. I would rather just have a few extra officers on duty or maybe the school building security increased.

I feel pretty uncomfortable with most police officers and security guards carrying guns. If you want to look at negligent discharge stats, most are police officers. My favorite is the DEA agent who shot himself in the foot with his own gun while giving a talk to elementary school children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pf3ID3XQ6o

At least once a week there's a story in the local news about a cop who shot himself or discharged his firearm into the ground negligently. It just doesn't make national news.

[doodle]

If I were a teacher, it would make me extremely uneasy as well to know that other teachers and possibly students at the junior college were walking around with guns. I had a friend that nearly blew his head off with a rifle he didn't think was loaded and I worked with a guy whose pistol discharged into his leg while he was getting into his car. I would rather just have a few extra officers on duty or maybe the school building security increased.

I feel pretty uncomfortable with most police officers and security guards carrying guns. If you want to look at negligent discharge stats, most are police officers. My favorite is the DEA agent who shot himself in the foot with his own gun while giving a talk to elementary school children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pf3ID3XQ6o

At least once a week there's a story in the local news about a cop who shot himself or discharged his firearm into the ground negligently. It just doesn't make national news.

So the conclusion is that cops and security guards are just dumber and more careless than average people? Is there any reason to explain why cops fall on the left hand side of the bell curve?

[TripleB]

So the conclusion is that cops and security guards are just dumber and more careless than average people? Is there any reason to explain why cops fall on the left hand side of the bell curve?

They don't take firearm ownership or carry seriously because it becomes part of their uniform, like their belt or shoes. If they use their gun to shoot someone, and they aren't grossly negligent in their actions, they will get sent home on paid admin leave, and the city will indemnify them against personal liability.

As opposed to a private citizen who carries a gun, and has to be super careful because if anything wrong happens with it, he's 100% personally liable. Additionally, because the private citizen is not carrying the firearm as part of a work uniform, they take the responsibility more seriously.

This doesn't mean all cops or all private citizens. It means most.

[Pointedstick]

TripleB is right; the institutions and incentives are very different. Cops in particular have a very strong support network that protects them legally as well as psychologically in cases when they use their firearms to commit murder or manslaughter. Most are never jailed, even in cases that clearly constitute murder. Private citizens have no such protections, and a single bad decision can result in a ruined life.

[TripleB]

You know, its funny but in the UK basically no police officers carry guns and they are still able to maintain the peace. All the places that I have been around England seemed pretty safe. The homicide rate in England is 400% lower than the United States, and granted they have a more homogenous culture, but they still have plenty of hooliganism and rioting and disaffected youth and teenagers. Because guns are so rare and hard to come by, my guess is that it would be almost impossible for a psychotic teenager to run into a school in the heat of the moment and blow away his classmates.

i have heard their violent crime rate is considerably higher
- UK, there are 2,034 offenses per 100,000 people,
-The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents

That doesn't support the gun-grabbers viewpoint so it's ignored and explained away by other means such as "well they don't have guns so the violent crime doesn't end in death... so what if a few thousand women get raped, defenselessly, or a few people get broken jaws, punched in the face by strong-arm robbers... life is precious and they have less deaths resulting from their violent crimes."

[doodle]

I don't have any evidence but I would say the statistics between cops accidentally discharging a weapon or shooting themselves would probably be comparable to the general public. Unless someone has hard data on this...its all conjecture and speculation.

Cops are put into situations that people in the general public dont generally face. If you put your average gun carrying citizen in the situations that cops have to deal with my guess is that they would be much more trigger happy.

[doodle]

You know, its funny but in the UK basically no police officers carry guns and they are still able to maintain the peace. All the places that I have been around England seemed pretty safe. The homicide rate in England is 400% lower than the United States, and granted they have a more homogenous culture, but they still have plenty of hooliganism and rioting and disaffected youth and teenagers. Because guns are so rare and hard to come by, my guess is that it would be almost impossible for a psychotic teenager to run into a school in the heat of the moment and blow away his classmates.

i have heard their violent crime rate is considerably higher
- UK, there are 2,034 offenses per 100,000 people,
-The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents

You have to factor in the difference of the definition of violent crime between the two countries. The UK has a pretty broad definition I believe compared to United States. In addition there is also the incarceration practices. We have the worlds highest incarceration rate which maybe accounts for some difference in the statistics.

[TripleB]

Cops are put into situations that people in the general public dont generally face. If you put your average gun carrying citizen in the situations that cops have to deal with my guess is that they would be much more trigger happy.

Do you CCW a firearm? I do, and I would exercise significantly more restraint than a police officer if I were confronted with a situation. So much so, that I would err on the side of letting other people die rather than attempting to protect them.

Even a justified civilian shooting is a $100k event on the low end.

For a police officer, it's $0.

Even if I am fully justified, I'm going to jail, losing 10% of my bail permanently to pay a bondsman, missing work until the arraignment and bond gets posted, probably will get fired from work for missing it, pay $50k to $100k in legal fees for the criminal trial, and another $50k to $100k for the civil trial.

Screw that... sorry but I'm not using my CCW to protect others.

[doodle]

This might explain some of disparity:


The UK rate includes common assault -- simple assault, no injuries, the lowest level of assault.

The US rate does not.


Check your UK document. The crime survey data shows that 37% of the "violent crimes" reported were "common assault (no injury)".


The UK figures include "sexual offences". The US figures include only "forcible rape".


8% of the recorded crime figure for violent crimes in the UK is "other violence". Where is that in the US figures?

15% of the recorded crime figure for violent crimes the UK is "harassment". Where is that in the US figures?

5% of the UK survey-reported crime is "snatch theft" as distinct from "robbery". Is that covered by "robbery" in the US figures?

[Pointedstick]

It sounds like you should move to the UK, doodle. I think the social attitudes there would suit you much better, and it sounds like you'd feel safer.

I think gold sovereigns are even tax-free, too!

[doodle]

Too cold for me! Actually, I lived for about a year in Holland and really enjoyed the people and society there. Very open and friendly actually. I wasnt expecting that from a northern European country. If global warming ever made northern Europe inhabitable I think I would fit well into that culture.

[gizmo_rat]

All the places that I have been around England seemed pretty safe. The homicide rate in England is 400% lower than the United States, and granted they have a more homogenous culture, but they still have plenty of hooliganism and rioting and disaffected youth and teenagers. Because guns are so rare and hard to come by, my guess is that it would be almost impossible for a psychotic teenager to run into a school in the heat of the moment and blow away his classmates.

Anecdotally, 20 years ago I spent a few months pottering around the US including places that weren't "safe" , didn't ever see a gun or violent incident, didn't ever meet anyone that wasn't friendly, didn't even see a policeman in the flesh.

Also what I think you call sporting guns e.g. shotguns, target pistols and rifles are not that hard to own legally, but owning / not owning a gun just doesn't mean a thing,  anymore than owning a Epee or Javelin.     

That said I think that the underlying culture in UK/US is very similar, I think I'd rather live and bring my children up in Sweden or Denmark... but it's too damn cold and dark.

[moda0306]

TripleB,

How many civilian gun defense instances result in your $100k+ lawsuit or criminal charges as a percentage?  Just curious...

[TripleB]

TripleB,

How many civilian gun defense instances result in your $100k+ lawsuit or criminal charges as a percentage?  Just curious...

I don't have figures. I'd estimate an overall average somewhere between 30% to 80% depending on circumstances such as location. If you're in NY State, it's probably 95%+. If you're in Arizona, probably under 20%.

It really has to do with the local mood of the prosecutor. If the prosecutor doesn't file charges, you're usually good, although civil lawsuit burdens are significantly lower than criminal. That said, it varies by county. If you're in Pinal County (Tuscon) AZ, I'd guess a 90% chance of criminal charges, regardless of the circumstances, compared to the bordering Maricopa County (Phoenix) might be under 10% chance of charges.

Seem ridiculous? Seems that way to me too. I have a good friend who is a liberal that says "people should always get arrested and charged, even in self-defense cases because you never really know if it was self-defense until a trial." - I'm horrified by that possibility because if you need to use your firearm in self-defense, you're already feeling really miserable, and now you're dragged through a $100k, two to three YEAR trial to prove your innocence even when it's immediately apparent to responding law enforcement that it was clear cut self defense?

All because the parents of the deceased, who's baby boy was just turning his life around after being in and out of numerous penal institutions for 20 years and didn't mean no trouble... rally for the (elected) prosecutor to press charges. This is another case HB would describe as a failure of government. Because the District Attorney is an elected position, he or she is subject to the whim of the people and must persecute innocent people at times in order to secure future votes. Happens all the time.

[MachineGhost]

Delhi Bus Gang Rape Victim Has Intestines Removed As Shocking Details Of Assault Emerge

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/2 ... lp00000003

[TripleB]

Delhi Bus Gang Rape Victim Has Intestines Removed As Shocking Details Of Assault Emerge

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/2 ... lp00000003

Damn good thing India has significant gun control in place or someone might have shot the 6 rapists in the act, and they wouldn't be alive to face criminal charges... assuming they ever get caught.

[doodle]

Delhi Bus Gang Rape Victim Has Intestines Removed As Shocking Details Of Assault Emerge

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/2 ... lp00000003

Damn good thing India has significant gun control in place or someone might have shot the 6 rapists in the act, and they wouldn't be alive to face criminal charges... assuming they ever get caught.

Doubtful....the thugs probably would have been heavily armed and shot the meddling "someone"

[MachineGhost]

I sure am glad of the herd immunity aka community immunity in this country when it comes to guns.

No one should ever have to go through the nightmare of what that innocent woman did.

I say fry 'em all.

[doodle]

Death penalty has not been shown to have any effect on crime reduction....

As far as rape statistics (and I know what they say about statistics....), according to this chart the US ranks quite high on the list....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

[dualstow]

I don't really have the nerve to slog through all 15 pages of this thread, but here's the new Atlantic article in case it hasn't already been posted.

The Case for More Guns (And More Gun Control)
How do we reduce gun crime and Aurora-style mass shootings when Americans already own nearly 300 million firearms? Maybe by allowing more people to carry them.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ol/309161/