Either you guys are all retired or you are the most unproductive workers Ive ever seen!!
If you subscibe to classical libertarianism, thats fine. But this libertarian capitalism crap is nonsense.
Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Dude! I'm not saying Chomsky has all the answers...but when a huge number of very intelligent intellectuals say that your Harry Browne libertarian capitalism philosophy is utter nonsense....wake up and think a little.
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Noam Chomsky? Really?doodle wrote: I bow down before my capitalistic master Gumby and lick his boots clean so maybe he'll throw me a few scraps of newspaper to cover my naked and freezing body. Apparently no one is taking YOU seriously....
The American version of "libertarianism" is an aberration, though—nobody really takes it seriously. I mean, everybody knows that a society that worked by American libertarian principles would self-destruct in three seconds. The only reason people pretend to take it seriously is because you can use it as a weapon. Like, when somebody comes out in favor of a tax, you can say: "No, I'm a libertarian, I'm against that tax"—but of course, I'm still in favor of the government building roads, and having schools, and killing Libyans, and all that sort of stuff.
Now, there are consistent libertarians, people like Murray Rothbard—and if you just read the world that they describe, it's a world so full of hate that no human being would want to live in it. This is a world where you don't have roads because you don't see any reason why you should cooperate in building a road that you're not going to use: if you want a road, you get together with a bunch of other people who are going to use that road and you build it, then you charge people to ride on it. If you don't like the pollution from somebody's automobile, you take them to court and you litigate it. Who would want to live in a world like that? It's a world built on hatred.
The whole thing's not even worth talking about, though. First of all, it couldn't function for a second—and if it could, all you'd want to do is get out, or commit suicide or something. But this is a special American aberration, it's not really serious.
Chomsky has made a career out of being a gadfly commentator about the U.S. way of life, reaping the rewards of the system he criticizes, sort of like a more polished version of Michael Moore.
A Chomsky-like figure in MANY countries through history would have long ago been imprisoned or executed. Instead, he writes books and tours the country complaining about things with no fear of retribution of any kind. There is great irony in such figures. I always wonder why they don't go live somewhere else, but the answer is obvious: it's far less lucrative than griping about the shortcomings of the U.S.
A world in which people are free to enter into voluntary exchanges and relationships is hardly a world full of hate. I would much rather choose my own spouse, vocation and consumption patterns than have these decisions made for me by someone else. What is hateful about that?
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Pointedstick
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
How does it make any sense to say something like that on a message board dedicated to preserving Harry Browne's ideas? Have you no sense of context and decorum? You wouldn't go on a Muslim forum and start saying that Mohammed was a big jerk, would you?doodle wrote: Dude! I'm not saying Chomsky has all the answers...but when a huge number of very intelligent intellectuals say that your Harry Browne libertarian capitalism philosophy is utter nonsense....wake up and think a little.
You're just becoming a troll.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
All you can say for sure is that it is nonsense to you.doodle wrote: If you subscibe to classical libertarianism, thats fine. But this libertarian capitalism crap is nonsense.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
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RuralEngineer
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
All of Doodles "arguments" have essentially become logical fallacies at this point, predominantly strawman attacks. I'm not sure why anyone continues to engage him.
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
doodle,
I'm curious about something. Let's say that you are dating this girl who is pretty cute but a bit materialistic, but you still enjoy spending time with her.
When it comes time to meet her parents you find out that her dad is an executive at a big oil company. When you go over to her parents' house for dinner, would you take that opportunity to educate your girlfriend's dad on all of the bad things that his company is doing in the world and how he is basically a part of the problem when it comes to capitalist excess, climate change, etc.?
I'm curious about something. Let's say that you are dating this girl who is pretty cute but a bit materialistic, but you still enjoy spending time with her.
When it comes time to meet her parents you find out that her dad is an executive at a big oil company. When you go over to her parents' house for dinner, would you take that opportunity to educate your girlfriend's dad on all of the bad things that his company is doing in the world and how he is basically a part of the problem when it comes to capitalist excess, climate change, etc.?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
doodle,
I disagree that this society would be built on hatred, but see what you're saying. Further, it's not full-blown anarchistic libertarianism because someone had to decide who owned the land to build the road on, and this is often done with the helping hand of government... which gets to my estimation of the difference between libertarianism and anarchism.
Anarchy acknowledges the sovereignty of the individual, and even of "private property" as an extension of that, in some forms, but not to the ridiculous levels that libertarians take it. Libertarians think there is a natural negative right to the natural resources of our earth to be "owned" by people (or, more importantly, some people, and not others). They believe that the role of government is to protect our "negative rights," and in some cases, at some levels, build some infrastructure... but for the most part should simply let protection of negative rights combine with market forces to take care of everything else.
An anarchist might have two problems with that assertion... as he sees it:
1) Even if a government is there to protect a negative right of mine (the right to not be assaulted by another individual), it still has to assault me to set up the courts, police, etc.
I believe this is the "social contract": I will give up this negative right (pay my taxes) to have my other negative right protected (have a court/police to arrest bad guys).
2) Natural resource ownership isn't a negative right... it's a positive right. You don't "own" that land. It's just there, and you planted a flag on it, reaping profits from it you claim as your own. You are taking away my negative right to go where and when I please without interference for the positive right to "own" the land and natural resources below it.
It's not that I think we're in a "world full of hate" when people get together to build a road and have courts settle tough disputes. It's that they didn't have any natural connection to the land that would give them the natural right to make people PAY to cross it to begin with. If I walk onto the wrong property, I can be shot, which is putting a vague right (a right to own what's not yours and shoot trespassers), far above a very natural right (my negative right to not be harmed and travel as I please.
Of course, we all have to use the resources of the world around us, and would be dead if we didn't, so I can see some very natural connection to the land in that context, but this idea that "owning" vast swaths of land & resources as some sort of natural occurence is a bit much. In doing so, private property as it exists today is basically just another form of social engineering. It just feels like liberty to those with the deeds.
I disagree that this society would be built on hatred, but see what you're saying. Further, it's not full-blown anarchistic libertarianism because someone had to decide who owned the land to build the road on, and this is often done with the helping hand of government... which gets to my estimation of the difference between libertarianism and anarchism.
Anarchy acknowledges the sovereignty of the individual, and even of "private property" as an extension of that, in some forms, but not to the ridiculous levels that libertarians take it. Libertarians think there is a natural negative right to the natural resources of our earth to be "owned" by people (or, more importantly, some people, and not others). They believe that the role of government is to protect our "negative rights," and in some cases, at some levels, build some infrastructure... but for the most part should simply let protection of negative rights combine with market forces to take care of everything else.
An anarchist might have two problems with that assertion... as he sees it:
1) Even if a government is there to protect a negative right of mine (the right to not be assaulted by another individual), it still has to assault me to set up the courts, police, etc.
I believe this is the "social contract": I will give up this negative right (pay my taxes) to have my other negative right protected (have a court/police to arrest bad guys).
2) Natural resource ownership isn't a negative right... it's a positive right. You don't "own" that land. It's just there, and you planted a flag on it, reaping profits from it you claim as your own. You are taking away my negative right to go where and when I please without interference for the positive right to "own" the land and natural resources below it.
It's not that I think we're in a "world full of hate" when people get together to build a road and have courts settle tough disputes. It's that they didn't have any natural connection to the land that would give them the natural right to make people PAY to cross it to begin with. If I walk onto the wrong property, I can be shot, which is putting a vague right (a right to own what's not yours and shoot trespassers), far above a very natural right (my negative right to not be harmed and travel as I please.
Of course, we all have to use the resources of the world around us, and would be dead if we didn't, so I can see some very natural connection to the land in that context, but this idea that "owning" vast swaths of land & resources as some sort of natural occurence is a bit much. In doing so, private property as it exists today is basically just another form of social engineering. It just feels like liberty to those with the deeds.
Last edited by moda0306 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Yes, and to every other person that has progressed beyond some pubescent Ayn Rand fantasy.MediumTex wrote:All you can say for sure is that it is nonsense to you.doodle wrote: If you subscibe to classical libertarianism, thats fine. But this libertarian capitalism crap is nonsense.
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
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Pointedstick
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
doodle, just go away if all you have to offer are insults. Stop being rude and go argue your philosophy with people who are likely to respond better. But stop pissing in our swimming pool.doodle wrote:Yes, and to every other person that has progressed beyond some pubescent Ayn Rand fantasy.MediumTex wrote:All you can say for sure is that it is nonsense to you.doodle wrote: If you subscibe to classical libertarianism, thats fine. But this libertarian capitalism crap is nonsense.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Moda, I totally agree.Of course, we all have to use the resources of the world around us, and would be dead if we didn't, so I can see some very natural connection to the land in that context, but this idea that "owning" vast swaths of land & resources as some sort of natural occurence is a bit much. In doing so, private property as it exists today is basically just another form of social engineering. It just feels like liberty to those with the deeds.
Either we have capitalism with socialist state intervention
Or we have libertarian socialism of the variety Chomsky talks about
This hybrid libertarian capitalism is utter nonsense....as probably one of the most educated and notable libertarians clearly states in the quote I pasted above.
Last edited by doodle on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
doodle,
I honestly have to disagree with some people here and think you raise some good points from a philisophical level on what government should worry itself with (externalities, role of private property, libertarian philosophies and how they break down, moral relativism, etc).
However, your approach is obviously haphazard and offensive enough to enough people that maybe you should take a bit of time to reapproach these points and learn to listen better (speaking as someone who has had to at least try hard to do the same... not preaching from on-high).
Further, don't spend too much time pontificating about things you can't control. It will tear you apart if you let it. I obviously am one to talk, but have tried to learn to do it until I can tell it's making me more unhappy than happy.
-moda
I honestly have to disagree with some people here and think you raise some good points from a philisophical level on what government should worry itself with (externalities, role of private property, libertarian philosophies and how they break down, moral relativism, etc).
However, your approach is obviously haphazard and offensive enough to enough people that maybe you should take a bit of time to reapproach these points and learn to listen better (speaking as someone who has had to at least try hard to do the same... not preaching from on-high).
Further, don't spend too much time pontificating about things you can't control. It will tear you apart if you let it. I obviously am one to talk, but have tried to learn to do it until I can tell it's making me more unhappy than happy.
-moda
Last edited by moda0306 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
+1Pointedstick wrote: doodle, just go away if all you have to offer are insults. Stop being rude and go argue your philosophy with people who are likely to respond better. But stop pissing in our swimming pool.
My patience is wearing thin with doodle's failure to take about a dozen polite hints to chill out.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
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Pointedstick
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Listen to moda, doodle. He raises points about private property and libertarian philosophy that are extremely challenging for me to grapple with, but it does it respectfully, without implying or outright saying that I'm a worse person for holding a different point of view, and without endlessly and aggressively arguing the issue to the exclusion to all else.
Just stop being a jerk, basically. People who disagree with you aren't stupid, brainwashed, or immature.
If you can't do that, then please leave until you can.
Just stop being a jerk, basically. People who disagree with you aren't stupid, brainwashed, or immature.
If you can't do that, then please leave until you can.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
seconded ..moda0306 wrote: doodle,
I honestly have to disagree with some people here and think you raise some good points from a philisophical level on what government should worry itself with (externalities, role of private property, libertarian philosophies and how they break down, moral relativism, etc).
However, your approach is obviously haphazard and offensive enough to enough people that maybe you should take a bit of time to reapproach these points and learn to listen better (speaking as someone who has had to at least try hard to do the same... not preaching from on-high).
Further, don't spend too much time pontificating about things you can't control. It will tear you apart if you let it. I obviously am one to talk, but have tried to learn to do it until I can tell it's making me more unhappy than happy.
-moda
putting some guys quote in bold about how "the whole thing isn't worth talking about" and dismissively characterizing Ayn rand as "pubescent" and similar posts, are not any way to defend or explain your thinking... they come off as fallacious arguments, trolling or an emotional reaction to having ideas you cant defend being questioned.
-Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
More respectfully than referring to someone as an object, anyway.Pointedstick wrote: ...but it does it respectfully...
JK.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
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Pointedstick
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
LOL! Oops, sorry about the tpyo. 
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
"it puts the lotion on its skin"moda0306 wrote:More respectfully than referring to someone as an object, anyway.Pointedstick wrote: ...but it does it respectfully...
JK.
-Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
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Pointedstick
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Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
You know what's funny? I had the exact same thought!l82start wrote:"it puts the lotion on its skin"moda0306 wrote:More respectfully than referring to someone as an object, anyway.Pointedstick wrote: ...but it does it respectfully...
JK.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Thirdsies.... I couldn't make a good joke out of it, and I thought it would be a bit creepy to quote.Pointedstick wrote:You know what's funny? I had the exact same thought!l82start wrote:"it puts the lotion on its skin"moda0306 wrote: More respectfully than referring to someone as an object, anyway.
JK.
Thanks for taking things over the line, l82... not me for once
.This reminds me, I've been meaning to start a thread about skin cracks and how to get rid of them. My fingers look like the grand canyon right now.
Last edited by moda0306 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
always happy to do my part... 
-Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Can we get back to the Bernank (who came up with that endearing nick name)?
I honestly feel kind of bad for him. Everyone places so much blame on him when he really just lacks the effective tools to deal with our current crisis. Low interest rates help, but they are not the panacea that they are when private sector debt is rapidly expanding.
Would anyone here honestly be raising rates if they were running the Fed?
I honestly feel kind of bad for him. Everyone places so much blame on him when he really just lacks the effective tools to deal with our current crisis. Low interest rates help, but they are not the panacea that they are when private sector debt is rapidly expanding.
Would anyone here honestly be raising rates if they were running the Fed?
everything comes from somewhere and everything goes somewhere
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k i think it came from this...melveyr wrote: Can we get back to the Bernank (who came up with that endearing nick name)?
-Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
-Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
Gold!TennPaGa wrote:Not me.melveyr wrote: Can we get back to the Bernank (who came up with that endearing nick name)?
But I propose Bernankadank.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."
- Thomas Paine
- Thomas Paine
Re: Bob Brinker says you're a certified fool is you question the Bernank
That was the first time I heard it.l82start wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k i think it came from this...melveyr wrote: Can we get back to the Bernank (who came up with that endearing nick name)?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”