Perfect vs. "Good Enough" Diet

[Tortoise]

In the new Permanent Portfolio book, Craig and MT recommend not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm thinking this can be applied to diet as well.

In various threads here, folks have discussed the nutritional benefits of eating grass-fed meat and animal products: pastured beef, pastured chicken, pastured pork, pastured eggs, pastured dairy, etc. And if it isn't grass-fed, it should generally be avoided due to the out-of-balance omega-6/omega-3 fat ratio, antibiotics (since feedlot animals tend to get very sick), and various other reasons.

Unfortunately, grass-fed meat and animal products are not always readily available, especially in restaurants. So in those situations, is the healthiest option simply to "go vegan" for that particular meal?

On the one hand, I keep hearing about how much more nutrient-dense meat is compared to fruits and vegetables. But on the other hand, I keep hearing about how grass-fed meat is really the only kind one should eat. So I'm torn about what to do in those inevitably non-optimal dietary situations I find myself in.

I could completely avoid grain-fed meat and grain-fed animal products when it's all I have to choose from, but then I would be forgoing all of that nutrient-dense food in favor of relatively nutrient-sparse fruits and veggies.

Isn't there a way to prevent the perfect from being the enemy of the good in (very) common situations like these?

[notsheigetz]

We had a "biometric screening" at work the other day which meant we had to get some tests done on-site to save $25/month on our health insurance. One piece of advice given by one of the consultants was that if it tastes good, don't eat it.

To which I say "go **** yourself". I think you need to do a serious cost-benefit analysis about these things and you should probably start by eliminating the thought from your mind that immortality can be achieved through diet and then work from there so it doesn't skew your thinking. My own opinion is that the relationship between diet and longevity is way overblown and I've read some good articles that support this. My dad lived on a diet of bacon and eggs, fried chicken, mashed potatoes, and dessert with every meal and he is now 93 years old and maybe it might finally be catching up with him but if he had to do it over again I tend to doubt he would be wiling to give up the fried chicken for a couple of more years playing cards with his friends in his old age.

[Benko]

On the one hand, I keep hearing about how much more nutrient-dense meat is compared to fruits and vegetables.

That is the mantra of one person here, and the point of view of one dietary school of thought.

I would try to eat wild fish e.g. salmon most of the time if you eat fish and hormone free antibiotic free meat most of the time. I suppose he might be right and that perhaps it is best to eat grass fed animal protein most of the time, but you are probably harming yourself by getting all stressed out and worrying if you are not able to eat that way 100% of the time.

"So in those situations, is the healthiest option simply to "go vegan" for that particular meal?":  I would say no, and emphatically no if it means you eat a large amount of carbs with little protein (see glycemic index).

I have no energy for the emphatic discussion that this will generate, so this is all I will say on this topic (PM if you have questions.)

[Benko]

My own opinion is that the relationship between diet and longevity is way overblown and I've read some good articles that support this.

Well that is another point of view.

Suffice to say that genetic play an important role in how long you live so diet clearly aint everything.  HOWEVER if you eat whatever you feel like, the quality of your life in your later years may be much less than what you would wish. There is plenty of healthy taste good food.  But if think you can eat whatever you feel like....I doubt you would treat your dog/cat/car maintenance in the equivalent way.

Bottom line: eating healthy most of the time and allow some cheats may be the most practical way for most.

[Tortoise]

My dad lived on a diet of bacon and eggs, fried chicken, mashed potatoes, and dessert with every meal and he is now 93 years old [...]

Anecdotal evidence like that is always interesting to hear, but scientifically speaking it doesn't count for much. One can almost always find at least a few outliers that exist in spite of--not because of--their lifestyle. For example, one of my relatives smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for most of his life, and he lived into his 90s without any tobacco-related health issues that I'm aware of.

I have no energy for the emphatic discussion that this will generate, so this is all I will say on this topic (PM if you have questions.)

Thanks for your suggestions, Benko. I've seen your input in other health-related discussions on this forum, and I do respect your opinion. Especially since you are an MD (and an especially open-minded one, from what I can tell). Gumby isn't the only person whose health-related ideas I pay attention to around here

[Benko]

Tortoise,

As a general point, there are a lot of widely differing schools of thought on diet but there is A LOT of agreement.  There is a thread in this (the "other section") with my thoughts of what most agree on.  Even Gumby eats veggies and when he talks about the dangers of eating too many veggies apparently eating 5 cups of veggies per day is not too much.

Oh and I'm kind of an outlier, but having an MD degree in itself does not mean one is a reliable source on anything other than conventional medicine (and the kind that they trained for either).

[notsheigetz]

My dad lived on a diet of bacon and eggs, fried chicken, mashed potatoes, and dessert with every meal and he is now 93 years old [...]

Anecdotal evidence like that is always interesting to hear, but scientifically speaking it doesn't count for much. One can almost always find at least a few outliers that exist in spite of--not because of--their lifestyle. For example, one of my relatives smoked a pack of cigarettes a day for most of his life, and he lived into his 90s without any tobacco-related health issues that I'm aware of.

I have no energy for the emphatic discussion that this will generate, so this is all I will say on this topic (PM if you have questions.)

Thanks for your suggestions, Benko. I've seen your input in other health-related discussions on this forum, and I do respect your opinion. Especially since you are an MD (and an especially open-minded one, from what I can tell). Gumby isn't the only person whose health-related ideas I pay attention to around here

My first wife died of lung cancer at the age 53 after smoking for 40 years so I'm well aware of the dangers of ignoring scientific evidence in regards to health (which I did not, I always knew this would kill her prematurely somehow if she didn't quit).

If you want to tell me that the evidence for a link between a certain kind of diet and health is just as well established then based on my current non-scientific googling I have to say I'm not yet convinced.

[Pointedstick]

As a general point, there are a lot of widely differing schools of thought on diet but there is A LOT of agreement.  There is a thread in this (the "other section") with my thoughts of what most agree on.  Even Gumby eats veggies and when he talks about the dangers of eating too many veggies apparently eating 5 cups of veggies per day is not too much.

Yeah, I think it's really hard to overdose on veggies unless you're already a diet nut. Most people eat practically no vegetables on a daily basis, so it's usually good advice to just say, "eat more!" Heck, most of the vegetarians and vegans I know get most of their calories from grains and soy.

[edsanville]

My own opinion is that the relationship between diet and longevity is way overblown and I've read some good articles that support this.

Statistically, the best thing you can do for your longevity is to be born in a rich country.

With regards to diet, I made a scatter plot once (for the hell of it) showing national life expectancies on the x-axis and obesity rates on the y-axis.  It turns out there was a slight positive correlation, i.e. more obesity and high life expectancy go together.  Obviously, correlation doesn't imply causation, but I think it demonstrates that living in a rich country with access to decent medical care (and huge amounts of food) is by far the most important thing you can "do" for your life expectancy.

Interestingly, the two outliers in that graph were Japan (skinny and live forever) and Angola (fatter and die young).

[Gumby]

In the new Permanent Portfolio book, Craig and MT recommend not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm thinking this can be applied to diet as well.

Wise words!

Unfortunately, grass-fed meat and animal products are not always readily available, especially in restaurants. So in those situations, is the healthiest option simply to "go vegan" for that particular meal?

Benko is right. There's no need to stress about it. Just eat grass-fed when you can. If your kid wants to eat at Applebee's once in a while, take them there and enjoy it. It takes months and months of eating a particular way to change your blood chemistry. A single meal or two in a week isn't going to have an overwhelming effect. Take cod liver oil to balance out those occasional high Omega-6 meals.

On the one hand, I keep hearing about how much more nutrient-dense meat is compared to fruits and vegetables. But on the other hand, I keep hearing about how grass-fed meat is really the only kind one should eat. So I'm torn about what to do in those inevitably non-optimal dietary situations I find myself in.

Here's a good article from Mark Sisson on the differences between grain fed and grass fed beef. Sometimes the differences aren't as clear cut as you might imagine. Note at the end of the article he tells you not to stress about it too much. Go ahead and eat grain fed meat, but eat grass fed as much as you can and don't sweat it too much.

http://marksdailyapple.com/the-differen ... -fed-beef/

The point is to enjoy your food, not to stress about it.

[Gumby]

That is the mantra of one person here, and the point of view of one dietary school of thought.

True. But, let's keep in mind that the diet I've advocated here is one that humans have been eating for many many generations — perhaps millions of years. All of the other "schools of thought" are nothing more than untested theories based on rather flimsy science that have barely been practiced for a generation or two. So, I don't think it's easy to say my views are radical when you consider just how many humans have eaten and evolved this way over the course of human history.

For instance, from about 2 to 4 million years ago, right up until 1984, just about every child that's ever been born was given lots of wholesome fats and cholesterol, which are essential for brain development. After 1984, the NIH decided to institute an untested "low fat" recommendation for all children over the age of 2, based solely on an unproven theory. There is zero science to back this recommendation up — particularly for children. Yet, the entire country went along with it and anyone who questions it is considered fringe or potentially dangerous.

I would try to eat wild fish e.g. salmon most of the time if you eat fish and hormone free antibiotic free meat most of the time. I suppose he might be right and that perhaps it is best to eat grass fed animal protein most of the time, but you are probably harming yourself by getting all stressed out and worrying if you are not able to eat that way 100% of the time.

"So in those situations, is the healthiest option simply to "go vegan" for that particular meal?":  I would say no, and emphatically no if it means you eat a large amount of carbs with little protein (see glycemic index).

I agree with Benko (most of the time actually). I remember Benko posted diet recommendations a few months ago, and if you look at them, they are pretty much spot on.

There is a thread in this (the "other section") with my thoughts of what most agree on.  Even Gumby eats veggies and when he talks about the dangers of eating too many veggies apparently eating 5 cups of veggies per day is not too much.

When I talked about the "dangers" of toxins in various plants, it was intended as a warning for those who try to obtain ALL their vitamins from plants (i.e. vegans, vegetarians who try to vitamix tons of plants). It's just a bad idea because plants aren't very nutrient dense. But, fruits and vegetables are absolutely crucial for detoxifying and cleansing our bodies.

Eat healthy portions of leafy greens, colorful plants, berries, vegetables, assorted fruits, roots, and tubers to cleanse your body. But, just understand that most of your bioavailable vitamins are coming from animal products. Plants basically help you poop and neutralize toxins.

Incidentally, I tried chicken hearts for the first time today. They are rich in CoQ10. I expected them to taste awful. But, they kind of just tasted like... chicken. They were good! Split them in half and sear them in butter for a few seconds and toss them on a salad. Yum!

[Gumby]

My dad lived on a diet of bacon and eggs, fried chicken, mashed potatoes, and dessert with every meal and he is now 93 years old and maybe it might finally be catching up with him but if he had to do it over again I tend to doubt he would be wiling to give up the fried chicken for a couple of more years playing cards with his friends in his old age.

I eat those foods too (though I tend to roast my chicken). Those are traditional foods! Most of what you listed is actually quite good for you from an ancestral diet perspective. That's what we are talking about here. Your dad is just another example of why those traditional foods can be quite nutritious if prepared in a traditional manner (using animal fats, etc.)

But, this brings up a good point. Everyone is different. For instance...

Some people have specific gene mutation (PCSK9) for high LDL receptor activity. What this seems to mean is that they can pretty much eat whatever they want and have very little chance of getting heart disease because their cells are very good at absorbing the important cholesterol/nutrients carried in LDL particles. There is little chance for much oxidative stress in these individuals because there is no time for the LDL particles to sit around an oxidize.

Most people have average LDL receptor activity — their bodies can handle some moderate levels of oxidate stress.

And some people with specific gene mutations have "defects" that cause their cells to have poor LDL receptor activity. Their cells don't absorb the important cholesterol/nutrients carried in LDL particles very well and these people can barely handle oxidative stress. One theory is that this seems to allow the LDL particles to oxidize as they sit around in the bloodstream, and the LDL becomes small and dense as the body tries to deal with the unabsorbed particles — causing arteriosclerosis as the arteries react to the oxidation. These people are also more susceptible to other health problems as well, but modern science is only just beginning to understand these individuals. We tend to call this "Familial Hypocholesterolemia" because these people have very high cholesterol in their families. Some people have heterozygous FH, and their cholesterol is moderately elevated. Some people have homozygous FH (two alleles) and they usually have very high cholesterol. For these people, they can have heart problems at an early age — even as a child.

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The point being is that the people who have these genetic "defect" mutations need to talk to be very careful about how they proceed with their diets. Nobody really knows the right answer on how these individuals should eat, but I know that there are some people with FH and knowingly have these gene mutations that are proceeding with ancestral diets — presumably for the health benefits of the diets — under the supervision of open-minded doctors. Chris Masterjohn has been researching this phenomenon heavily, and writing about it on his blog. Incidentally, statins can improve LDL receptor activity, but they tend to have those nasty side effects (which is why it's important for those on statins to take CoQ10).

I am certain that some people on this forum who are reading this have the "defective" mutation. Though, most people with the mutation already know they have it from abnormally high cholesterol readings. But, the lesson here is that everyone is different.

[MachineGhost]

Unfortunately, grass-fed meat and animal products are not always readily available, especially in restaurants. So in those situations, is the healthiest option simply to "go vegan" for that particular meal?

I would go lean meat only, i.e. -loin and trim.  The benefits of grass fed are largely in the fat.

[MachineGhost]

The fast pace of today’s 24/7 lifestyle leaves many people neglecting to follow the “Five a Day”? recommendation by most developed nations that aim at improving cardiovascular health and reducing cancer risk.  David G. Blanchflower, from the University of Warwick (United Kingdom), and colleagues completed a review of cross-sectional data involving 80,000 Britons who were measured by standardized assessments to ascertain life satisfaction, happiness, nervousness, etc., and surveyed for the daily portions of fruits and vegetables consumed.  The researchers found that happiness and mental health rise in an approximately dose-response way with the number of daily portions of fruit and vegetables. The researchers find that “well-being peaks at approximately 7 portions per day,”? thus leading them to submit that: “Our findings are consistent with the need for high levels of fruit-and-vegetable consumption for mental health and not merely for physical health.”?

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents ... happiness/

Easily doable if you commit yourself to eating three square meals a day of 2 palms of protein, 3 fists of veggies and 1/4 cup of healthy fat (men).

[Benko]

Easily doable if you commit yourself to eating three square meals a day of 2 palms of protein, 3 fists of veggies and 1/4 cup of healthy fat (men).

"1/4 cup of healthy fat (men)." (per meal)
Since this is supposed to be an easily implementable recommendation, how do people institute that?

[MachineGhost]

"1/4 cup of healthy fat (men)." (per meal)
Since this is supposed to be an easily implementable recommendation, how do people institute that?

1/4 cup of nuts = 1 oz = 2T of solid/liquid fat.

[Ad Orientem]

Every single person on this forum irrespective of our ethnic, religious or political differences has one thing in common. One hundred years from now, we will all be fertilizer. What does this mean? For me it means that after church I plan on having a nice lunch topped off with a piece of strawberry shortcake.

[BearBones]

Every single person on this forum irrespective of our ethnic, religious or political differences has one thing in common. One hundred years from now, we will all be fertilizer. What does this mean? For me it means that after church I plan on having a nice lunch topped off with a piece of strawberry shortcake.

Good one! I think that I will break down and have one of those left over Snickers bars from Halloween. After all, I bet even paleo-hominoids snuck a few Snickers here and there...
BTW, I suspect that a few here will end up as cryopreserved supplements and lard rather than fertilizer.

[MediumTex]

I would say to most people that if they would simply reduce the amount of bread, fried foods and sugary drinks in their diet, they would be amazed at the health improvements they would see.

Realistically, I think that those simple steps would be "good enough" for most people.

In fact, for anyone wanting to improve their diet, I might say to do the steps above first, and after a years or so of these new eating habits, then dive into Gumby's more elaborate and detailed strategies.

Making durable changes to your diet is very hard.

[dualstow]

Yeah, I think it's really hard to overdose on veggies unless you're already a diet nut. Most people eat practically no vegetables on a daily basis, so it's usually good advice to just say, "eat more!" Heck, most of the vegetarians and vegans I know get most of their calories from grains and soy.

The ones I know get a fair amount from chocolate. 

[Pointedstick]

Yeah, I think it's really hard to overdose on veggies unless you're already a diet nut. Most people eat practically no vegetables on a daily basis, so it's usually good advice to just say, "eat more!" Heck, most of the vegetarians and vegans I know get most of their calories from grains and soy.

The ones I know get a fair amount from chocolate. 

Hey, they could do a lot worse! http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2012/11/ch ... imal-dose/

[Gumby]

The researchers found that happiness and mental health rise in an approximately dose-response way with the number of daily portions of fruit and vegetables. The researchers find that “well-being peaks at approximately 7 portions per day,”? thus leading them to submit that: “Our findings are consistent with the need for high levels of fruit-and-vegetable consumption for mental health and not merely for physical health.”?

Interesting. Though, even the study admits...

Our findings can be at best only suggestive of any causal relationship.
Source: http://www.andrewoswald.com/docs/Octobe ... tBrown.pdf

Which means that, for all we know, it could be just that people who eat a lot of vegetables are happy because they think eating lots of fruits and vegetables will make them better off. Not saying that's what the relationship is, but the study shows nothing more than a casual correlation. Would be nice to see why fruits and vegetables could actually cause someone to be happier (i.e. serotonin, etc.) but unfortunately a simple survey can't investigate that sort of thing.

[flyingpylon]

Kurt Harris has a good framework... work your way down the list as best you can, or see fit.

http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

Many of the "gurus" seem to make a point that we shouldn't sweat the really small stuff.  I would say that if you're making even a modest effort you're way ahead of most people.

[l82start]

http://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-comp ... roof-diet/  this is a modified paleo diet, the PDF available from this page is a good info graphic showing the continuum of food quality/nutrition that fits the "perfect VS good enough" model very well.
you can still eat a fair amount of junk compared to perfect and still be worlds better off than the average American diet

[Gumby]

Kurt Harris has a good framework... work your way down the list as best you can, or see fit.

http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

Many of the "gurus" seem to make a point that we shouldn't sweat the really small stuff.  I would say that if you're making even a modest effort you're way ahead of most people.

http://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-comp ... roof-diet/  this is a modified paleo diet, the PDF available from this page is a good info graphic showing the continuum of food quality/nutrition that fits the "perfect VS good enough" model very well.
you can still eat a fair amount of junk compared to perfect and still be worlds better off than the average American diet

Kurt Harris and Dave Asprey are both great resources. Nice finds! Asprey's color-coded charts are particularly helpful.

I agree that as long as you are generally trying to eat "real" foods you're definitely headed in the right direction. No need to be perfect all the time. Just do what you can and enjoy your life.