A warning on dividend investing

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AgAuMoney
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

Post by AgAuMoney »

MachineGhost wrote: Why are you not using mean-variance optimization to account for the intrastock correlations?  This is, after all, the specific area that Markowitz's thesis actually works compared to the asset class level.
1) I don't believe it will improve my results, at least not predictably.  A prediction is only of value if the inputs are certain and the result deterministic and substantially more reliable than random.  So far I've seen nothing to convince me that inputs needed are certain, much less that the results are deterministic and reliable.

2) If there was an algorithmic way to gain alpha, enough investors (and institutions) would use it that the advantage would disappear.

3) Dividend growth is inherently a lazy and cheap approach, beat in those respects only by the totally passive index fund (lazy or couch potato) portfolio.  With 50 stocks (having added two new holdings this year) I've done less than 20 trades (2 per month) so far this year and that's a lot.  There might not be any more the rest of the year...  (not counting automatic dividend reinvestment).  Not being convinced of the predictive value of Markowitz greatly reduces my incentive to do the work necessary to implement anything to do the required tracking and analysis.
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AgAuMoney
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

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Clive wrote: Compare 60-40 SPY/TLT with VEIPX total gains.

Bought and held the two run quite closely, but with VEIPX showing more upside and downside volatility across 2008/9, but realigning again thereafter.

On a yearly rebalanced basis (back to 60-40), the 60-40 relatively won over the last decade since TLT inception. Likely due to the lower volatility across 2008/9.
I think it was more likely due to the macroeconomic advantage experienced by long-term treasuries over the past 30 years, including the last 10.

The same may continue a brief time longer.  Given that 30 year rates today are under 3% as opposed to over 15% 30 years ago, the same trend cannot continue indefinitely.  The all time record low is just under 2%.
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MachineGhost
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

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AgAuMoney wrote: 3) Dividend growth is inherently a lazy and cheap approach, beat in those respects only by the totally passive index fund (lazy or couch potato) portfolio.  With 50 stocks (having added two new holdings this year) I've done less than 20 trades (2 per month) so far this year and that's a lot.  There might not be any more the rest of the year...  (not counting automatic dividend reinvestment).  Not being convinced of the predictive value of Markowitz greatly reduces my incentive to do the work necessary to implement anything to do the required tracking and analysis.
Markowitz has nothing to do with prediction.  What I meant to infer was you could over-exposure yourself to risk by over-concentrating in certain stocks when equal-weighting.  Equal-weight means equal $, not equal risk.  Mean-variance optimization would ideally reduce the weight of those in accordance to their increasing correlations, which would be higher for stocks in the same industry, sector, etc..  Now, if you think correlations are unstable because they're point in time when the correlation matrix is filled, you could always override the matrix values and input stable average values, like from a Kalman Filter or use Monte Carlo simulation to consider all 32,768 weighting possibilities.
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Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

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Clive wrote: At least you recognise that they're not particularly special and anticipated to outperform overall, but just move in a different way over time, so there may be some diversification benefit.
I don't know that I've seen any statistical proof yet that dividend growth stocks only perform as well as the market.  It's only conjecture at this point.  Since it seems to infer a growth strategy, it may actually outperform.  AgAuMoney's empirical experience is somewhat biased due to his potentially subpar stock picking skills; we'd have to see sorted quntiles over time to get an unbiased observation.
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AgAuMoney
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

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MachineGhost wrote: Markowitz has nothing to do with prediction.  What I meant to infer was you could over-exposure yourself to risk by over-concentrating in certain stocks when equal-weighting.  Equal-weight means equal $, not equal risk.  Mean-variance optimization would ideally reduce the weight of those in accordance to their increasing correlations
I know Markowitz did not attempt prediction with his seminal work in the 1950's and 1960's.  But when you use his theories that explain past behavior, combined with statistics derived from that past behavior, in order to structure your portfolio in anticipation of future behavior, I don't know what you can call it other than prediction.

As for trying to equal-weight risk, you first have to define the risk of concern.  Markowitz and all that I've read regarding subsequent application of his theories in creating modern portfolio theory, have assumed that risk is equal to price volatility.  That risk does not concern me.  Further, I've seen enough evidence in historical numbers that I know that attempting to predict future price volatility based on previous volatility is of minimal if any use at least over any term of interest.  So I don't see any reason to bother with it.  Instead of being worried about price volatility, I treat such as a bonus opportunity to be harvested if convenient, or ignored if not.  I was able to make a great harvest in late 2008 and early 2009.  Maybe I'll get lucky and it will happen again.

The risk that concerns me is the risk to income, as caused by a company cutting their dividend.  One might attempt to balance the that risk by structuring the portfolio so as to equalize the contribution to income of each holding, otherwise known as equal income weighting.

I tried that.  I don't do it any more.  It was too hard for the little benefit it provided.  It made it hard to know where to put additional investment, when volatility could be harvested, etc. so I went to equal capital weighting.  2008 convinced me that my alternate approach to managing income risk is much more effective.  That method is to pay attention to the companies involved, and the macro events which uniquely impact them, and to individually assess whether each dividend is at risk.

Since 2005 or so I've made only three significant mistakes in that assessment, including one where I was correct but allowed myself to be convinced not to act on my judgment.  That was GE, I sold 1/2 my holding but kept the other half because of public pronouncement by the CEO that the dividend was safe.  Shortly afterwards they cut their dividend.  Another was BP.  I thought they had enough cash flow to cover any reasonable scenario.  I still do.  They even announced the dividend but political pressure from the U.S. caused them to cancel before paying.  The final was WaMu.  They had enough capital to have qualified for a bailout like many other players their size and situation, but I failed to account for the influence JP Morgan Chase has on the Fed, combined with WaMu previously spurning JPM's buyout offer.

Still in spite of those mistakes, there has not been a single year since 2002 that my dividend income has not increased.  Losing GE and WaMu both in a single year was harsh, but increases from other companies and redeploying capital (like from selling BAC long before the dividend cut) into the stellar bargains available at the time more than made up for them (always helps to have a bit of good luck like losing my job in 2008).
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

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For what it's worth (which might be nothing)...
Alliance Bernstein wrote:"Investors have been flocking to high-dividend-paying stocks, lured by their predictable, bondlike income and downside defenses. But investors may be getting more risk than they bargained for.

The widespread pursuit of safety in high-yielding stocks has driven up their valuations and increased market concentration in these stocks. It has also caused an alarming surge in their correlation to bonds, so investors may be getting a lot less diversification than they realize.

Let’s look at valuations first. High-yield stocks are as pricey as they’ve been since the early 1950s, trading at a modest premium to the market versus a long-term average discount of 20%. We don’t view this premium as exorbitant given the current market anxieties, but it does limit upside potential and makes these stocks more vulnerable than others if sentiment turns. Most of the high-priced dividend-paying stocks are in mature, slow-growth sectors such as consumer staples, telecom and utilities, which are likely to look less appealing than more economically sensitive stocks in a sustained economic recovery."

Source: http://blog.alliancebernstein.com/index ... territory/
Read more: http://blog.alliancebernstein.com/index ... territory/

Of course, predictions like this rarely seem to come to fruition when we look back.
Last edited by Gumby on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing I say should be construed as advice or expertise. I am only sharing opinions which may or may not be applicable in any given case.
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

Post by sophie »

Good article.  The same warning about a growing bubble in high dividend stocks was in the article that I posted to start this thread.
Investors who are passively invested in cap-weighted indices should pay attention to these trends, too, because the market embeds the growing dangers of overexposure to expensive safety stocks and higher-than-usual correlations to the bond market.
Ironically, this might be a good time to buy low-yielding stocks, since they are now priced relatively lower than the dividend payers.  And, one of the points of the article is that total stock market indexes reflect the over-weighting of high dividend stocks.  Adding a small-cap index might be a good way to compensate for this.
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WildAboutHarry
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

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sophie wrote:And, one of the points of the article is that total stock market indexes reflect the over-weighting of high dividend stocks.  Adding a small-cap index might be a good way to compensate for this.
Vanguard's small cap index yields about 1.2%, not vastly different from Total Stock Market (1.9%).  And the dividend yield of the S&P 500 was much lower back in 2000 than it is today.
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sophie
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

Post by sophie »

WildAboutHarry wrote:
sophie wrote:And, one of the points of the article is that total stock market indexes reflect the over-weighting of high dividend stocks.  Adding a small-cap index might be a good way to compensate for this.
Vanguard's small cap index yields about 1.2%, not vastly different from Total Stock Market (1.9%).  And the dividend yield of the S&P 500 was much lower back in 2000 than it is today.
That's a 36% smaller dividend payout for small cap vs total stock market.  The difference may be even greater if you take into account the overpricing of high dividend stocks, which would reduce their yield.  It would take a bit more research but putting something like 20-30% of the stock allocation into small caps is something to consider, to protect against that high dividend bubble.  And especially worthwhile in a taxable account.
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Re: A warning on dividend investing

Post by WildAboutHarry »

sophie wrote:That's a 36% smaller dividend payout for small cap vs total stock market
Yes, but...

Small caps traditionally have fewer dividend paying/more lower yielding issues.  Direct comparison of yields is not apples to apples.

The P/E of the S&P 500 is not exactly frothy.

And a high-dividend stock "bubble" is somewhat self regulating.  Demand = higher prices = lower yields = not so attractive any more.
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