What If Saturated Fats Are Essential?

[Benko]

Gumby,

I am well aware of your views.  I have avoided replying directly to any of your posts, because I don't have the energy to debate this with you.  I only mentioned it in passing in a reply on another topic.   I could certainly be wrong and you right, but I don't think so.  A number of your comments are...off e.g.

"as a main source of nutrition"  I do not know what those words mean.  Clearly the important nutrients in veggies/fruits are micronutrients, not the main source of nutrition.

"There haven't been many vegetarian cultures"  Straw man.  my words were "eaten large amounts of veggies".

"fruits and vegetables are good for you. But, their role is mainly to cleanse and detoxify our bodies — not to nourish it."
I do not believe most people would agree with this, but then again you need to define nourish.

"Those nutrients are largely irrelevant unless you have a gut that can ferment those fruits and vegetables to extract those nutrients"
I don't believe this, and if one could measure blood levels of some of those nutrients (I suspect so) one could prove this is false.

Here is the linus pauling institute link on phytochemicals and they talk about bioavailability for each substance:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/p ... icals.html

"Furthermore, the most significant "vitamin" listed in vegetables tends to be Vitamin A"
Who is talking about vitamins?  Veggies provide other phytochemicals which is what I am talking about.

BOTTOM LINE: You may be right, but your viewpoint (if you are really saying that eating 2-5 cups of veggies daily is harmful) is A. not the experience of many people who are not vegetarians, but eat significant amounts of veggies/fruits daily and B is a minority viewpoint among people writing about optimum diets.

NB: There is no one optimum (IMHO) diet for everyone, and the above is not to say that some people who already have gut issues may need to figure out what works for them (by avoiding some veggies/legumes).  There may be some people who do eat lots of vegies/legumes who create gut problems for them.  But it ain't everyone.

[Benko]

You are offering an educated and very convincing argument (similar to what MT has done for the role of bonds), but please do not confuse it with fact.

Exactly. Theory does not equal practice (what most people experience in the real world), and the mind can come up with a theory to justify almost any position.

[Gumby]

Who is talking about vitamins?  Veggies provide other phytochemicals which is what I am talking about.

Huh?

Sorry, perhaps I'm misunderstanding. Weren't we talking about getting important nutrients from foods? I don't see how you can care so much about phytochemicals when the very link you provided from the Linus Pauling Institute says...

Phytochemicals can be defined, in the strictest sense, as chemicals produced by plants. However, the term is generally used to describe chemicals from plants that may affect health, but are not essential nutrients. While there is ample evidence to support the health benefits of diets rich in fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grains and nuts, evidence that these effects are due to specific nutrients or phytochemicals is limited.
Source: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/p ... icals.html

Why should we care about phytochemicals if they aren't essential and the evidence is limited? If the answer is that Phytochemicals may protect us from certain diseases, then I would point out that's what I already said when I referenced that plants are important for "cleansing and detoxifying" the body.

(if you are really saying that eating 2-5 cups of veggies daily is harmful)

For the record, I've never said that people shouldn't be eating fruits and vegetables. In fact, I said they are good for you in moderate quantities. 2-5 cups of vegetables doesn't sound like a lot to me, particularly if cooked. 1 cup per meal, or so, sounds perfectly fine. That's what I try to do!

So, how much "non-essential" phytochemicals does one really need to eat?

[Benko]

For the record, I've never said that people shouldn't be eating fruits and vegetables. In fact, I said they are good for you in moderate quantities. 2-5 cups of vegetables doesn't sound like a lot to me, particularly if cooked. 1 cup per meal, or so, sounds perfectly fine. That's what I try to do!

I may be alone (I suspect not), but that was not the impression I got from your prior posts.  10  (1/2 cup) servings of veggies and fruits is more than a lot of the population.

[Gumby]

For instance, for breakfast I might eat 2 strips of pastured bacon, 3 pastured eggs scrambled and placed on top of a few stalks of asparagus or an avocado, a cup of raw milk yogurt mixed with a small handful of blueberries.

Lunch I'll typically try to have some kind of meat and a generous handful of some vegetables.

Dinner is another meat or fish with one or two handfuls of different color vegetables. Maybe a sweet potato or rice will take the place of a vegetable sometimes.

All I was trying to say is that the meats (and animal products, such as eggs and dairy) tend to be nourishing and nutrient-dense — particularly if they include organ meats. The vegetables tend to be more for cleansing and detoxification (i.e. photochemicals?).

My apologies if there was any confusion.

[Dets]

Has anyone on here read Gary Taubes latest book? Pretty interesting read.  He spends the first half explaining why he thinks calories in = calories out is bunk, and then the 2nd half explaining why sugar and carbs are a problem and why we need to replace alot of those calories with fats.  Read it with an open mind and take it with a grain of salt I guess

http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Fat-Ab ... 0307272702

[Tortoise]

Has anyone on here read Gary Taubes latest book? Pretty interesting read.  He spends the first half explaining why he thinks calories in = calories out is bunk, and then the 2nd half explaining why sugar and carbs are a problem and why we need to replace alot of those calories with fats.  Read it with an open mind and take it with a grain of salt I guess

http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Fat-Ab ... 0307272702

Yes, I started a thread a while back to discuss that book and low-carb dieting in general:

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ht ... ic.php?t=2

The book was a thought-provoking read for me. I don't fully agree with every assertion Taubes makes in it, but most of it seems pretty well supported.

[Gumby]

...there is an excellent LDL oxidization protector.  Its called pomegranate and will reverse arteriosclerosis over time.  My 90+ grandma used to have clogged arteries until I put her on a pomegranate extract (no more than a year at most) and GliSODin (still on).

MG, I think I'm going to try this... Few questions: Does it matter which pomegranate extract one uses? How much does one take? Is it better/worse/same than drinking pomegranate juice? And what is GliSODin and what does it do? Thx!

[MachineGhost]

MG, I think I'm going to try this... Few questions: Does it matter which pomegranate extract one uses? How much does one take? Is it better/worse/same than drinking pomegranate juice? And what is GliSODin and what does it do? Thx!

There are pomegranate extracts which concentrate and standardize the active ingredient.  There's two kinds of standardized extracts on the market.  One is standardized to ellagitannins which is outdated because it was originally thought to be responsible for pomegranate's beneficial effects.  Avoid.  The other is standardized to punicalagins which is the actual bioagent responsible.  The dose used in studies was 200mg of punicalagins a day.

Pomegranate juice contains a lot of sugar and I estimate that 200mg punicalagins is about equivalent to 10 cups of juice, so its just not practical or cost effective.  But I think there are concentrated extracts with most of the sugar removed that can be reconstituted. 

All parts of the pomegranate have an effect, but I think only the uber-expensive LEF version has extracts from pomegranate seed oil and leaves, not just the fruit.  But that's likely overkill for someone without heart disease.

Superoxide Dismutase (SOD) is one of the body's most powerful master antioxidants along with catalase which both work together to mop up free radicals.  While SOD is found in nature (its most concentrated in melons ala Cindy Crawfowd's Meaningful Beauty), it's not bioavailable when digested.  GliSODin wraps it around a gliadin carrier so it is absorbable.  SOD is a real antioxidant unlike the phytochemicals found in fruits and vegetables which are actually low-level toxins that cause the body to engage in mitohormesis which increases SOD, catalse and glutathianone.

[Gumby]

MG,

I see LEF's "Endothelial Defense with GliSODin" combines Pomegranate (punicalagins) and GliSODin in one product, and Amazon sells it for what works out to about $28/month. (The only other supplement I take is Fermented Cod Liver Oil) I figure if I'm only going to take this for a few months (no more than a year) I can afford something in that price range.

Anyway, does this dosage look ideal?


Superoxide Dismutase/Gliadin Complex (GliSODin®) [SOD (Superoxide Dismutase) Enzyme Activity = 500 IU]500 mg
POMELLA® Pomegranate (Punica granatum) Extract (fruit) [std. to 30% Punicalagins (120 mg)]400 mg
Pomegranate (Punica granatum) 5:1 Extract (fruit)100 mg


Thanks again for your help.

[MachineGhost]

That would work but just keep in mind its pretty pricey vs the alternatives, but on the other hand you wouldn't have to take 3 separate capsules and there's no question of it not being pharmaceutical grade.  There may be a newer version with cocoa polyphenols also, look for it.

[MachineGhost]

Everyone should get a kick out of this:

http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459

[MachineGhost]

Gumby, if you didn't see this in the other thread, you should watch it ASAP before it goes offline: http://geneticroulettemovie.com/

The correlation between leaky gut and GMO food is almost impossible to ignore.  Look at the pictures at 21:30.

[Benko]

Everyone should get a kick out of this:
http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459

gotta love it:

"We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute."

[Gumby]

Gumby, if you didn't see this in the other thread, you should watch it ASAP before it goes offline: http://geneticroulettemovie.com/

The correlation between leaky gut and GMO food is almost impossible to ignore.  Look at the pictures at 21:30.

I didn't see it. Thanks for the tip. I watched the 5 minutes after 21:30. That's a huge, huge find there. Wow. It sounds like 95% of the food supply is for all practical purposes genetically poisoned. Unbelievable.

Btw... I've been trying to read about the SODs in gliSODin. It sounds like amazing stuff that the body truly needs as it ages. I'm 36 now, but, I'm not sure I want to take it more than year. Do you have any idea to what happens to someone who raises SOD levels in their body and then stops supplementing with SOD? I can't help but wonder if the body becomes dependent on the rich supply of gliSODin after awhile and then goes into a sort of deficit when it disappears — instantly turning me into an old man. I get the feeling like I'd have to take the pills for the rest of my life if I want to keep my SOD levels up.

[MachineGhost]

Btw... I've been trying to read about the SODs in gliSODin. It sounds like amazing stuff that the body truly needs as it ages. I'm 36 now, but, I'm not sure I want to take it more than year. Do you have any idea to what happens to someone who raises SOD levels in their body and then stops supplementing with SOD? I can't help but wonder if the body becomes dependent on the rich supply of gliSODin after awhile and then goes into a sort of deficit when it disappears — instantly turning me into an old man. I get the feeling like I'd have to take the pills for the rest of my life if I want to keep my SOD levels up.

Theres no negative feedback chain with SOD as with hormones as far as I know.  If you stop it, you'll feel lethargic from the reduced energy for about a week and then recover.  I've been taking it for at least five years, five times a week.  I wouldn't advise skipping days sequentially.  Also, 500 IU of GliSODIn may be a very large dose intended for old people, so you might only want to take one capsule.  If you get insomina or too much energy, you'll surely know.

[Gumby]

I've been taking it for at least five years, five times a week.  I wouldn't advise skipping days sequentially.  Also, 500 IU of GliSODIn may be a very large dose intended for old people, so you might only want to take one capsule.  If you get insomina or too much energy, you'll surely know.

Cool. Now it only costs $14/month! I'm mulling over the idea of taking a daily tsp or 1/2 tsp of pomegranate extract for good measure in case there's some co-factor in the juice that's key — especially since I'll be just taking 1 endothelial defense (pomegranate/gliSODin) pill.

Just curious, but is there a reason why someone shouldn't take it 7 days a week?

[MachineGhost]

Just curious, but is there a reason why someone shouldn't take it 7 days a week?

No, I do it to save money.  But its not a bad idea to give your body a break so whatever you're taking doesn't make your body co-dependent or lose sensitivity.

[Gumby]

Just curious, but is there a reason why someone shouldn't take it 7 days a week?

No, I do it to save money.  But its not a bad idea to give your body a break so whatever you're taking doesn't make your body co-dependent or lose sensitivity.

Excellent. Thanks so much, MG. I appreciate it.

BTW, I found an interesting website set up by Paleo founders Loren Cordain and Robb Wolf. While many Primals and Paleos disagree with Cordain and Wolf's politically correct stance on saturated fats (which even Cordain and Wolf are now starting to backpedal on) their contributions are still highly regarded in the ancestral diet world. Anyway, they put up an online directory of doctors who are paleo friendly...

http://paleophysiciansnetwork.com

And Primals (who love grass-fed fat and avoid most modern grains) have their own website too...

http://primaldocs.com

Nice to see that there are open-minded doctors out there who can help guide people on ancestral diets.

[Gumby]

MG,

Since you live in California, not sure if this helps you but there is a local purveyor of traditional bone broths that sells in some local stores near San Diego...

See: http://bonebroth.com

[MachineGhost]

Wow, that's pretty cool.  National distribution here we come!

Somehow I got it in my head the bone broth had to be raw.

[Gumby]

Heh.. No. Definitely not raw. Nice and hot, just in time for Winter.

Btw, I think Kresser is on board with your BPA theory...

http://chriskresser.com/9-steps-to-perf ... l-your-gut
http://chriskresser.com/how-plastic-foo ... e-and-sick

...The intestinal barrier in large part determines whether we tolerate or react to toxic substances we ingest from the environment. The breach of the intestinal barrier (which is only possible with a “leaky gut”?) by food toxins like gluten and chemicals like arsenic or BPA causes an immune response which affects not only the gut itself, but also other organs and tissues

Source: http://chriskresser.com/9-steps-to-perf ... l-your-gut

EDIT: Did you mean "raw" as in uncooked? Or "raw" as in no other ingredients? For the introductory GAPS diet, I don't think the broth should have any other ingredients in it. But, I'm pretty sure on the full GAPS diet, the bone broth can have all sorts of good things in it — provided they are allowed on the diet. But, if you're not on GAPS, even any bone broth in general is very healing. Did you see they use Artesian well water? Nice touch.

[MachineGhost]

Wow, $10 for 3 cups is really expensive when you're supposed to have a cup per meal on the GAPS diet.

But, US Wellness meats provides 10 cups in a 5 pound pail for $50, not counting shipping.

This isn't practical.

[Gumby]

This isn't practical.

It's a cup-per-meal during the introductory diet. Once you reach the full GAPS diet — which should be fairly quick since you don't have digestive issues — then it drops down to only 1 cup of bone broth per day.

I know you're not into cooking your own, but people who do this tend to make the broth on Sunday for the entire week for just a few bucks. Kinda sucks, to have to go through the trouble of making it, but it is supposed to be very easy (basically boiling bones and adding a little vinegar). The only think I will say is that supposedly the smell is really good. So, I don't think it stinks up the house in a bad way.

Anyway, the good news is it's not 3 cups per day forever. Just 1 cup per day once you're past the intro diet. You're basically just downing 1 cup of broth each day and eating GAPS meals from the meal generator. Not too bad.

[MachineGhost]

It's a cup-per-meal during the introductory diet. Once you reach the full GAPS diet — which should be fairly quick since you don't have digestive issues — then it drops down to only 1 cup of bone broth per day.

I know you're not into cooking your own, but people who do this tend to make the broth on Sunday for the entire week for just a few bucks. Kinda sucks, to have to go through the trouble of making it, but it is supposed to be very easy (basically boiling bones and adding a little vinegar). The only think I will say is that supposedly the smell is really good. So, I don't think it stinks up the house in a bad way.

Anyway, the good news is it's not 3 cups per day forever. Just 1 cup per day once you're past the intro diet. You're basically just downing 1 cup of broth each day and eating GAPS meals from the meal generator. Not too bad.

I'm still getting through the GAPS FAQ as time permits.  How long is the introductory diet supposed to be take?

I'm still wondering if bone broth is just isn't the whole food extreme-purist, suboptimal approach to getting at what is really need.  Why wouldn't adding powdered gelatin to some beef broth not have most of the same gut healing effect?  I mean, the quantities of all ingredients in bone broth (flavored water) is not going to be very substantial compared to concentrated food or supplements, so I wonder what exactly is supposed to be providing the whammy?

Since I have dairy, soy, egg and rice intolerances, I'm forced to use beef protein isolate in my smoothies.  Interestingly, I just discovered that beef protein isolate is essentially gelatin, which is derived from hydrolyzed collagen which is indigestible in its natural state.  If we look at the protein composition of gelatin:

Alanine              8.9%
Arginine              7.8%
Asperic acid        6.0%
Glutamic acid    10.0%
Glycine            21.4%
Histidine            0.8%
Hydroxylysine      1.0%
Hydroxyproline  11.9%
Isoleucine          1.5%
Leucine            3.3%
Lycine              3.5%
Methionine        0.7%
Phenylanine      2.4%
Proline            12.4%
Serine              3.6%
Theronine          2.1%
Tyrosine            0.5%
Valine              2.2%

...it is virtually same as beef protein isolate:

Alanine          8.8
Arginine          7.3
AsparticAcid    6.2
Cystine          0.5
GlutamicAcid 11.3
Glycine        20.1
Histidine        1.2
Isoleucine      1.7
Leucine          3.3
Lysine            5.1
Methionine      1.2
Phenylalanine  2.3
Proline          11.1
Serine            3.4
Threonine      2.1
Tryptophan    0.3
Tyrosine        0.9
Valine            2.8

The very high levels of proline and hydroxyproline (not shown because I now think they don't want it obvious the protein is essentially overpriced gelatin) play a very significant role in the formation of collagen, i.e. great for joints and connective (skin, nails, etc.) tissue.  The very high levels of arginine is also great for for facilitating tissue repair and wound healing.  Whats not so great is the subpar levels of Brain Chain Amino Acids, so beef protein isolate or gelatin is not very good for promoting muscle growth.  Whats also not so great is the minuscle amounts of cysteine and tryptophan, but which is normally nonexistent in gelatin alltogether.  Also subpar is hydroxylysine, methionine, histidine and tyrosine.  Gelatin is simply an incomplete protein and beef protein isolate is barely better.

And yet, it now seems it would be cheaper to add a packet or two or Knox gelatin to my smoothie than spend $10 a pound for beef protein isolate! 

Besides gelatin killing babies in the 40's-50's, I remember that the original high protein liquid diets were killing obese people also.  Turns out it was because the protein used was gelatin.  Both groups became deficient in key amino acids.

Anyway, this ia a long way of saying I've been unknowingly consuming what seems to be substantial "gut healing" proteins for years.  It might be more cost effective to supplement my smoothie with the other ingredients (glutamine, glucosamine, etc.) alleged to be in bone broth.