What If Saturated Fats Are Essential?

[MachineGhost]

This below excerpt is from an interesting interview with the vegan extremist founder of the Physicians Committee For Responsible Medicine:

Rumpus: What about Atkins, low-carb, or “paleo”? diets? Some argue that it’s carbohydrates, not saturated animal fats that cause obesity, diabetes, and other chronic conditions.

Barnard: The thinnest people on the planet are those who eat the most carbohydrates. I’m thinking of people in rural Japan and China, where McDonald’s hasn’t yet arrived. These are the thinnest, healthiest, longest-lived people with the least risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes. As soon as you put a McDonald’s in their neighborhood, rice intake and intake of carbohydrates in general fall dramatically, waistlines get wider, diabetes goes up. In Japan, from 1980 to 1990, diabetes went up from less than 5% to about 11-12% of the population. Just like that. So the idea that carbohydrates are responsible for that is complete nonsense. People do lose weight on an Atkins diet. The reason they lose weight is because of calorie reduction. If a person’s caloric intake has not fallen, if they are really shoveling in the steak, they don’t lose weight. And a third of low carb dieters will have a substantial elevation in their cholesterol. And there was a paper on cognition, that said that objectively, though they may not be aware of it, people on [an] Atkins diet are slower, their reaction time is not as good.

...

But I think it’s fair, if something really is disgusting, to make people aware of it. For example, I just sampled about 120 chicken samples in Buffalo, New York. And we sent them to the lab and tested for fecal contaminaton. We’ll find it in about half of the samples. If you take a chicken thigh and wring it out, there’s fecal soup that comes out of it because there’s chicken feces everywhere in these places, and as they go through the chill bath, that spreads it around and the meat soaks it up and that measurably increases the weight of the chicken product they’re selling. How many people know that? They see the little preparation label that tells you to make sure you cook it, as if somehow a little peppering of bacteria has come from the atmosphere. They don’t realize that it’s chicken dung that’s not just on the surface but soaked into the meat. So people are serving their kids cooked poop. I think it’s fair game for people to know that. They may decide they’re going to do it anyway. But if some people think, “Why am I eating a dead bird soaked in poop?”? I think if some people get disgusted by that, it’s all to the good. Their coronary arteries will be healthier.

http://therumpus.net/2012/09/the-rumpus ... l-barnard/

[Gumby]

So, if you don't mind me asking, when you say you have trouble with grain-fed beef, do you mean digestive issues? Or just inflammatory issues?

Just inflammation.  I don't have any symptoms of the various digestive disorders.

Right, but inflammation from food is a huge red flag for leaky gut or some other gut problem (parasite, fungal, etc)...

When the intestinal barrier becomes permeable (i.e. “leaky gut syndrome”?), large protein molecules escape into the bloodstream. Since these proteins don’t belong outside of the gut, the body mounts an immune response and attacks them. Studies show that these attacks play a role in the development of autoimmune diseases like Hashimoto’s and type 1 diabetes, among others.

In fact, experts in mucosal biology like Alessio Fasano now believe leaky gut is a precondition to developing autoimmunity:

There is growing evidence that increased intestinal permeability plays a pathogenic role in various autoimmune diseases including [celiac disease] and [type 1 diabetes]. Therefore, we hypothesize that besides genetic and environmental factors, loss of intestinal barrier function is necessary to develop autoimmunity.

The phrase “leaky gut”? used to be confined to the outer fringes of medicine, employed by alternative practitioners with letters like D.C., L.Ac and N.D. after their names. Conventional researchers and doctors originally scoffed at the idea that a leaky gut contributes to autoimmune problems, but now they’re eating their words. It has been repeatedly shown in several well-designed studies that the integrity of the intestinal barrier is a major factor in autoimmune disease.

This new theory holds that the intestinal barrier in large part determines whether we tolerate or react to toxic substances we ingest from the environment. The breach of the intestinal barrier (which is only possible with a “leaky gut”?) by food toxins like gluten and chemicals like arsenic or BPA causes an immune response which affects not only the gut itself, but also other organs and tissues. These include the skeletal system, the pancreas, the kidney, the liver and the brain.

This is a crucial point to understand: you don’t have to have gut symptoms to have a leaky gut. Leaky gut can manifest as skin problems like eczema or psoriasis, heart failure, autoimmune conditions affecting the thyroid (Hashimoto’s) or joints (rheumatoid arthritis), mental illness, autism spectrum disorder, depression and more.

[,,,]

This systemic inflammatory response then leads to the development of autoimmunity. And while leaky gut and bad gut flora may manifest as digestive trouble, in many people it does not. Instead it shows up as problems as diverse as heart failure, depression, brain fog, eczema/psoriasis and other skin conditions, metabolic problems like obesity and diabetes and allergies, asthma and other autoimmune diseases.

To adequately address these conditions, you must rebuild healthy gut flora and restore the integrity of your intestinal barrier. This is especially true if you have any kind of autoimmune disease, whether you experience digestive issues or not.
Site: http://chriskresser.com/9-steps-to-perf ... l-your-gut

As I mentioned in another thread, listen to the following podcasts to learn more about leaky gut and SIBO:  

http://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-ske ... -episode-5

...and listen to this podcast to learn how to test for Leaky Gut and/or SIBO (including some new tests):

http://chriskresser.com/rhr-testing-for ... out-anemia

Unfortunately, the tests can be unreliable. So, he typically tries to help the patient heal their guts before extensive testing is done. Kresser says...

The reason I don’t find myself testing for leaky gut very often is my benchmark for determining whether to run a test is whether it will change the outcome of the treatment, and usually with leaky gut it doesn’t, because if I get the test results back — Let’s say someone comes to me and they have a gut problem.  If we were to run a test for leaky gut and it came back and it said they didn’t have a leaky gut, well, I still have a person with a gut problem.  You know, I still need to figure out what’s causing their gut problem and what to do about it.  And if someone comes back with a leaky gut, I still need to figure out what’s causing that leaky gut.  So again, I look at leaky gut kind of more like food intolerance in a sense because even though it is an underlying mechanism to some extent, meaning it can contribute to and cause a lot of other problems, there’s still usually something causing leaky gut itself.
Source: http://chriskresser.com/rhr-testing-for ... out-anemia

From what you describe, MG, yours sounds like a pretty sensitive inflammatory response. So, you might want to either try the GAPS (introductory diet and full GAPS) or give Chris a call for a remote consultation and get that gut healed.

http://chriskresser.com/clinic

[MachineGhost]

It appears to make a lot of sense.  The only thing is dealing with a "leaky gut" sounds intimidating and seems like a neverending hell of restriction.   I've got to first process and come to grips with it emotionally, but thanks for all the invaluable information.

[Gumby]

It appears to make a lot of sense.  The only thing is dealing with a "leaky gut" sounds intimidating and seems like a neverending hell of restriction.  I've got to first process and come to grips with it emotionally, but thanks for all the invaluable information.

Well, I wish you the best of luck. But, I don't think it's as bad as it sounds. A lot of people have leaky gut problems and most people don't even know it. My understanding is that many people are able to completely heal their guts after 18 to 36 months with the proper regimen. And all the while many see improvement as to what they can eat. The fact that you don't have digestive issues is probably a very good sign.

The thing about gut healing is that you start with a highly restricted diet (bone broths for instance) and then add in foods as the gut gets stronger. You gain tolerance as you go, from what I understand.

Again, I don't see the harm in talking to Kresser to see if this is something worth pursuing or not.

(To be honest, I think I have leaky gut symptoms as well. Though, mine tends to manifest itself as a little rosacea and dry skin. I've definitely seen dramatic improvement since eating less grains and eating more fermented foods. It sounds like a lot of people have gut issues but don't know it. Anybody who has skin issues probably has gut issues.)

[Benko]

1. As MG mentioned that he took, glutamine is useful for leaky gut.  It is fuel for the cells that line the intestines.

2.  If you have the small bowel problems (mentioned in the low carb thread) flora i.e. probiotics i.e. good bacteria can be helpful, but PREBIOTICS e.g. inulin and FOS are not a good idea since they can be fermented by the bad bacteria

3. Leo Galland, MD is a source of a lot of good information:.

http://mdheal.org/articles.htm

There are a few good articles there including leaky gut and one on small bowel dysbiosis.

I saw him speak at a meeting years ago, and he is one of the few MDs who really has a better approach.

[Gumby]

1. As MG mentioned that he took, glutamine is useful for leaky gut.  It is fuel for the cells that line the intestines.

Yep. Bone broths are super saturated with glutamine and other natural co-factors for gut-healing.

Homemade bone broth soups are effective in restoring a healthy mucosal lining in the stomach. Bone broth is rich in collagen and gelatin, which have been shown to benefit people with ulcers. It’s also high in proline, a non-essential amino acid that is an important precursor for the formation of collagen. Bone broth also contains glutamine, an important metabolic fuel for intestinal cells that has been shown to benefit the gut lining in animal studies. See this article and this one for more information about the healing power of bone broth, and how to make it.
Source: http://chriskresser.com/get-rid-of-hear ... mple-steps

[MachineGhost]

When I tried the free form glutamine, I took 50 grams total a day, 5 times a day in water for a week or so as that is how long the bottle of powder lasted at that dose.  I couldn't tell one way or the other that it did anything.

But free-form glutamine is not very bioavailable compared to natural state glutamine peptides.  Supposedly that doesn't matter for the gut lining but when it comes to muscles, there's very little evidence that free form glutamine reaches them.

I am currently experimenting with UC-II ...  undenatured chicken collagen type II that is supposed to slowly train the immune system to stop attacking your joints.  I'm on the third week, but I haven't noticed any reduction in inflammation so far (or joints not popping & cracking).

[Gumby]

The only thing is dealing with a "leaky gut" sounds intimidating and seems like a neverending hell of restriction.

Just to show you that gut healing can be achieved (albeit, with a lot of work)...

From page 156 of Gut and Psychology Syndrome:

At first glance the GAPS diet appears to be very hard work. However, it is a very wholesome and healthy diet and will allow your patient to heal and seal the gut lining and lay a strong foundation for good health for life. It means that the majority of GAPS people do not have to adhere to a special diet for the rest of their lives: once the digestive system starts functioning normally, they can gradually introduce most wholesome foods commonly eaten around the world. Some people achieve this target in two years, some take longer — it depends on the severity of the condition and the age of the person: children generally recover more quickly than adults.

Once introduced, the GAPS diet is no more difficult than any normal cooking and feeding the family. And shopping is very simple: just buy everything fresh and unprocessed.

Source: Gut and Psychology Syndrome, Page 156

But, of course, there are many approaches to gut healing. GAPS is just one approach. The important thing to realize is that you can achieve it.

[MachineGhost]

The problem is how the heck do you know when your gut has been fully healed to the point that its no longer a factor in any disease?

Where do I find the GAPS introductory diet and meal plans?

[Gumby]

The problem is how the heck do you know when your gut has been fully healed to the point that its no longer a factor in any disease?

Where do I find the GAPS introductory diet and meal plans?

The GAPS introductory Diet and Full GAPS Diet is found in the book...

http://amzn.com/0954852028

...and the introductory diet is explained here:

http://www.gapsdiet.com/INTRODUCTION_DIET.html

There's also a DVD, but I don't think the DVD is crucial unless you have severe problems and need a lot of explanation (which you don't).

And there's a 121 page FAQ on gapsdiet.com:

http://www.gapsdiet.com/uploads/FAQS_Listing.pdf

The book is important because it deals with specific issues for specific situations (for instance, egg intolerance when eggs are part of the Full GAPS Diet).

On page 144 she writes:

Those without serious digestive problems and food intolerances can move through the Introduction Diet quite quickly. However, try not to be tempted to skip the Introduction Diet and go straight into the Full GAPS Diet, because the Introduction Diet will give you the best chance to optimise the healing process in the gut and the rest of the body. I see cases where skipping the Introduction Diet leads to long-term lingering problems, difficult to deal with.
Source: Gut and Psychology Syndrome, p. 144

On page 155, she writes:

The strict GAPS doet should be adhered to for at least 1.5 - 2 years. Depending on the severity of the condition, some people recover more quickly while others take much longer. Your patient needs to have at least 6 months of normal digestion before you start introducing foods not allowed on the GAPS diet. Do not rush with this step.

The first foods you will be able to introduce are new potatoes and fermented gluten-free grains (buckwheat, millet and quinoa)...
Source: Gut and Psychology Syndrome, p. 155

Basically, after 6 straight months of good digestion (and no reactions) you slowly start introducing foods that aren't on the Full GAPS Diet and see how you react after 2-3 days. If you pass, you continue. If not, you step back a bit. I believe there are also some sensitivity tests, such as putting a drop of the food directly on your skin and see how it reacts the next day.

It sounds like you could breeze through the introductory diet and then just use GAPS recipe generators and GAPS-friendly cookbooks with the specific probiotics she recommends. The good news is that there are a ton of GAPS friendly recipes out there.

The fact that the GAPS people cannot have grains and sugar does not mean that they have to be deprived of breads, cakes, biscuits, crackers, pancakes, waffles and muffins. This diet provides you with excellent and very nourishing recipes, where you will replace wheat flour with nuts ground into flour consistency or nut flour (the same thing), and instead of sugar you will use unprocessed natural honey and dried fruit. In the recipe section you will find a number of different delicious recipes. Elaine Gottschall's book will provide you with many more wonderful recipes, and, if you have access to the Internet, you will find even more on:

www.gaps.me
www.scdiet.org
www.breakingtheviciouscycle.org
www.geocities.com
www.pecanbread.com
www.uclbs.org
Source: Gut and Psychology Syndrome, p. 128

And there's also another GAPS cookbook:
http://www.gapsdiet.com/GAPS_Cookbook.html

Since GAPS has a foundation on the long-tested Selective Carbohydrate Diet, it's very easy to find GAPS-friendly recipes... so long as you understand which ingredients are GAPS-friendly to your specific stage. There are minor differences between SCD and GAPS.

[Gumby]

I think what you tend to find, based on the stories I've read, is that GAPS people occasionally eat a cake or something off the GAPS diet and they almost always have a bad reaction or digestive problems. So, they end up not wanting to cheat on the diet.

Some people just quit the diet after a few weeks if they feel like they can't continue. And I believe they still see some small benefit from it.

Anyway, it's not like buying an I-Bond where you are locked in for a year. If you want to opt-out you can do so at any time.

I still think it's worth talking to Kresser or another doctor familiar with the gut-skin-brain axis. Last thing you want to do is take medical advice from "Gumby".

[MachineGhost]

All this talk of beef broth reminded me of Edgar Cayce recommending beef broth in some of his readings.  I thnk the Heritage Store even used to sell a bottled beef broth extract which was dark red in color.  I found this excerpt from a skeptic to be rather interesting:

His diagnoses were about as well-informed as his suggested cures. For example, we have his reading for psoriasis as, "The conditions that exist through the thinning of the walls of the intestines allow the poisons to find expressions in the lymph circulation; thus producing the irritation to and through the epidermis itself" (The Edgar Cayce Website, ecayce.tripod.com, from reading #2455-2, May 21, 1941). Funny, I have psoriasis and my doctor never mentioned thinning intestinal walls to me--nor do any of the medical websites I've consulted.

Now maybe that was part of the natural healing lore back then, maybe it wasn't.  I know beef broth was used to help anemia.  But I've certainly never heard of it in naturopathic medicine which emphasizes colon cleansing, not rebuilding a leaky gut.

I've got to say, I was expecting from US Wellness Meats something hearty, thick and deep red in color like bone marrow itself, not the typical light brown color beef broth.  5 lbs for $50?  Whoo boy!

EDIT: This is likely what I was thinking of: http://www.watkinsonline.com/productdet ... duct=02330

[Gumby]

In her book, McBride says there's a significant difference between beef broth and bone broth. Beef broth is hearty. Bone broth is basically bone water.

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For gut healing, it has to be bone broth.

Interestingly, Kresser — who is very evidence-based — also acknowledges the power of bone broth...
http://chriskresser.com/the-top-fourteen-foods

As inconvenient as it might seem to make your own bone broth, it's really easy...

http://www.sanfrancisco-acupuncture.com ... -included/

Put it in a slow cooker in the morning and you have a bucket of it when you get home.

[Gumby]

Good news... The nitrates in bacon are nothing to worry about...

...The study that originally connected nitrates with cancer risk and caused the scare in the first place has since been discredited after being subjected to a peer review. There have been major reviews of the scientific literature that found no link between nitrates or nitrites and human cancers, or even evidence to suggest that they may be carcinogenic. Further, recent research suggests that nitrates and nitrites may not only be harmless, they may be beneficial, especially for immunity and heart health. Confused yet? Let’s explore this issue further.

It may surprise you to learn that the vast majority of nitrate/nitrite exposure comes not from food, but from endogenous sources within the body. (1) In fact, nitrites are produced by your own body in greater amounts than can be obtained from food, and salivary nitrite accounts for 70-90% of our total nitrite exposure. In other words, your spit contains far more nitrites than anything you could ever eat.

When it comes to food, vegetables are the primary source of nitrites. On average, about 93% of nitrites we get from food come from vegetables. It may shock you to learn that one serving of arugula, two servings of butter lettuce, and four servings of celery or beets all have more nitrite than 467 hot dogs. (2) And your own saliva has more nitrites than all of them! So before you eliminate cured meats from your diet, you might want to address your celery intake. And try not to swallow so frequently.

All humor aside, there’s no reason to fear nitrites in your food, or saliva. Recent evidence suggests that nitrites are beneficial for immune and cardiovascular function; they are being studied as a potential treatment for hypertension, heart attacks, sickle cell and circulatory disorders. Even if nitrites were harmful, cured meats are not a significant source, as the USDA only allows 120 parts per million in hot dogs and bacon. Also, during the curing process, most of the nitrite forms nitric oxide, which binds to iron and gives hot dogs and bacon their characteristic pink color. Afterwards, the amount of nitrite left is only about 10 parts per million.

[...]

It’s important to understand that neither nitrate nor nitrite accumulate in body. Ingested nitrate from food is converted into nitrite when it contacts our saliva, and of the nitrate we eat, 25% is converted into salivary nitrite, 20% converted into nitrite, and the rest is excreted in the urine within 5 hours of ingestion. (3) Any nitrate that is absorbed has a very short half-life, disappearing from our blood in under five minutes. (4) Some nitrite in our stomach reacts with gastric contents, forming nitric oxide which may have many beneficial effects. (5, 6)

Source: http://chriskresser.com/the-nitrate-and ... fear-bacon

Nitrosamines on the other hand — formed when nitrates are heated — are the main concern. But, gently cooking bacon should minimize the formation of nitrosamines. Supposedly many fruits and vegetables (such as those that contain nitrates) happen to have enough antioxidants to protect our bodies from nitrosamines. So, eating vegetables (or taking Vitamin C) with bacon helps protect us from nitrosamines. Most mass-produced bacon actually has Vitamin C added to it already.

[MachineGhost]

Put it in a slow cooker in the morning and you have a bucket of it when you get home.

Finding grass fed raw bones would be more trouble than its worth, not to mention stinking up the house while slow cooking.  I'm also real skeptical the nutrient density even approaches that of supplements, especially glucosamine and chondroitin.  But, I'm willing to give it a shot when Wellness Meats has the broth back in stock.

Why not just mix up your own gelatin, collagen, proline, glucosamine, glutamine, etc. powder mix?  Seems like it would be a heck of a lot more concentrated and cost effective.

[MachineGhost]

Nitrosamines on the other hand — formed when nitrates are heated — are the main concern. But, gently cooking bacon should minimize the formation of nitrosamines. Supposedly many fruits and vegetables (such as those that contain nitrates) happen to have enough antioxidants to protect our bodies from nitrosamines. So, eating vegetables (or taking Vitamin C) with bacon helps protect us from nitrosamines. Most mass-produced bacon actually has Vitamin C added to it already.

I cannot tolerate anything with nitrites/nitrates.  Even when taking 3000 mg of Vitamin C and 500 mg of NAC, it will not prevent inflammation, even the naturally-occuring forms in celery juice/powder which is a minuscle portion of raw bacon or pre-cooked hot dogs.

[Benko]

Why not just mix up your own gelatin, collagen, proline, glucosamine, glutamine, etc. powder mix?  Seems like it would be a heck of a lot more concentrated and cost effective.

MG you are very knowledgeable and I agree with most of what you post (at least in areas where I know something e.g. nutrition/supplements).  My one caution about your mindset (this is a general comment, not specific to this thread) is that you put too much faith in supplements.  Sure it is easier to get higher potencies of specific nutrients by using supplements, and I confess I used to take zillions of supplements.  I now take much less.  I still take a fair amount, but I've switched to eating a lot more veggies and selected fruits (I don't buy the arguments that this is a bad idea) and whenever possible try to get nutrients from foods.  This is because of: A. absorbability and B. accessory nutrients in the food.

[Benko]

GUmby,

Thanks for the bone broth suggestion.  Aside from the gut issues, it would be useful for anyone with joint problems, or anything thinking of taking any of the collagen preparations/derivatives for any reason.  I was thinking of tracking down shark fin soup, but this is a better idea.

[MachineGhost]

Thanks for the bone broth suggestion.  Aside from the gut issues, it would be useful for anyone with joint problems, or anything thinking of taking any of the collagen preparations/derivatives for any reason.  I was thinking of tracking down shark fin soup, but this is a better idea.

The problem with collagen though is unless it is undenatured (i.e. not cooked), it doesn't really benefit the joints.  In fact, it may worsen inflammatory conditions.  In the marketplace, there is competition between Type I and Type III denatured collagen and Type II undenatured collagen.  Only the latter benefits the joints specifically.  Type I and III go to other supporting structures, so that makes sense for bone broth.

I'm a bit skeptical about the benefits of gelatin too.  It used to be a fad back in the 1940's or 1950's when it was first introduced to the marketplace and mothers were encouraged to feed their babies copious amounts of it as a "miracle food", until they started dropping dead from nutritional defenciences.

But I do agree with you that eating more real food seems to be the way to go for a baseline.  Bone broth will be my litmus test.

[Benko]

I'm a bit skeptical about the benefits of gelatin too. 

I was probably taking 50 or more mostly gelatin caps of supplements per day (perhaps you do).  If gelatin did anything....

[Gumby]

I've switched to eating a lot more veggies and selected fruits (I don't buy the arguments that this is a bad idea)

Can you elaborate? It seems pretty clear from an evolutionary standpoint that the human digestive system isn't really designed to digest large amounts of vegetables and fruits — nor are we able to efficiently extract many nutrients from plants. This is evidenced by the fact that all herbivores have cecums to digest plant matter (that they have to consume all day)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecum

...whereas the cecum we inherited from primates is now the pretty much just our appendix. Our acid/pepsin based stomachs are designed to more efficiently extract bioavailable nutrients from organ meats. All carnivores get their nutrients by eating herbivores — who have gone through the trouble of digesting the plant matter and making it bioavailable.

and whenever possible try to get nutrients from foods.  This is because of: A. absorbability and B. accessory nutrients in the food.

I believe one of the big reasons to get nutrients from food is also the co-factors. The naturally occurring enzymes and nutrients that our found in nature together that work synergistically with our bodies through millions of years of evolution and adaptation.

[Benko]

Gumby,

Unless I am misinterpreting your position, I view it as extreme.  I don't buy the vegetarian mafia propaganda about the evils of animal protein (especially since my body does better eating animal protein) and I don't buy that our bodies can't handle veggies.

1. There is data showing the people who eat lots of veggies and fruits benefit.  I personally (at least for now) am unable to benefit from raw veggies which  limits some benefits (while increasing absorbability of other nutrients e.g. carotenes, and lycopene if cooked with fat).
2.  There are societies which have eaten large amounts of veggies for ages e.g. the chinese.
3.  There are numerous phyto nutients found in fruits and veggies e.g. see the tricolor diet book and other such. If there is one topic that people of the various nutritional schools of thought e.g. low carb, low fat agree on it is that eating lots of veggies and selected fruits are good for you.
4. At the moment I am eating a legume e.g. lentils, split peas or beans (adzuki)  most days and I have thought about the ....perhaps it is the paleo diet issue with legumes.  I probably should look into your (theoretical as far as I can tell) concerns and review the paleo issue at some point.  All I can tell you is that my (somewhat finicky gut) seems to be doing just fine.  What am I eating?  e.g.

Hormone free/anti-biotic free beef/buffalo stew with LOTS i.e. large quantity of veggies added e.g. some root veggies (as potato substitute), carrots, peas, green beans.

Lentil soup with lots of spinach added.  Some different colored bell peppers added as well.

2 ounces nuts (baked at 300 degrees for 20 min)

steel cut oatmeal with truvia

I don't think saturated fats are unhealthy (and some is necessary) and go back and forth between going out of my way to eat e.g. chicken thigh (which do taste much better) vs eating chicken breasts.  I do eat 1 tbsp extra virgin olive oil and 1 tbsp coconut oil most days.

NB:  there is some really high level discussion on the track your plaque forum* and it MAY be that for some people saturated fats might actually be bad. This is based on blood tests.  I forget the details, but it has nothing to do with what your HDL, LDL are. 


*You have to joint track your plaque i.e. pay to get access to the forum.  Benefits include some very interesting articles on diet, supplements, and various other areas. I am skeptical about things such as this to which one has to pay, but Dr. Davis (cardiologist) seems to be right (as far as I can tell) the vast majority of the time.

[Gumby]

I don't buy that our bodies can't handle veggies.

What I'm saying is that most people can't handle lots of vegetables as a main source of nutrition — particularly if the plants, legumes or grains aren't properly prepared.

One of the problems is that plants aren't very nutrient-dense. They aren't. That's why herbivores have to eat plants all day. And even if plants were nutrient-dense, we don't have the tools to extract all of the nutrients from plants. This is not to say that plants don't play a role. They do...

The purpose of eating plant matter (vegetables, fruit, nuts, etc) is generally to keep the body clean, because they provide many cleansing substances. Plants generally do not feed us; they just cleanse and provide some energy. Animal foods are generally building/feeding foods, they provide the ‘bricks-and-mortar’ to build your body and your detoxification system; without meat, eggs, fish and dairy your own detox system may not work well. Raw animal foods provide a fair amount of detoxifying substances as well. It is important to build your body and to keep it clean. By combining both plants and animal foods, we allow our bodies to be optimally healthy. We are all different: some need more building while others need more cleansing. It is up to every individual to find the right balance between the cleansing foods (plants) and the feeding foods (animal products).
Source: http://gapsdiet.com/uploads/FAQS_Listing.pdf

1. There is data showing the people who eat lots of veggies and fruits benefit.

There is also plenty of data showing that animal consumption is beneficial. The data can say whatever you want it to say. Correlation does not equal causation. For all we know, that just means that people who eat lots of veggies and fruits have cleaner colons or eat less sugar or consume less trans fats.

I personally (at least for now) am unable to benefit from raw veggies which limits some benefits (while increasing absorbability of other nutrients e.g. carotenes, and lycopene if cooked with fat).

It's a myth that raw veggies are better for you. In a lab, there may be more vitamins and enzymes in a raw vegetable versus a cooked vegetable, but your stomach does not have the tools to unlock those nutrients. They just pass right through you, trapped in cellulose. So, the nutritional information is largely irrelevant. You would need to pre-ferment those raw vegetables (much like an animal's cecum) in order to extract those nutrients. Unfortunately, fermenting some plants can actually enhance some toxins.

Many fruits and vegetables are notoriously damaging to the gut of some individuals. IBS is often caused and exacerbated when people with compromised guts consume too many FODMAPs.

http://www.ibsgroup.org/brochures/fodma ... rances.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FODMAP

There are societies which have eaten large amounts of veggies for ages e.g. the chinese.

There haven't been many vegetarian cultures. The hindus are one example, however they were only able to avoid nutritional deficiencies by inadvertently consuming insects, larvae and residual fecal matter on unwashed plants. We know this because those same hindus became deficient when they moved to England and their plants were washed. Overwhelmingly, most cultures consumed meat or fish whenever they could.

The China Study — to what I believe you are refferring to — is notoriously biased, flawed and cherry picked. And the same data The China Study uses to show plant-consumption benefits can be used to show animal-consumption benefits.

There are numerous phyto nutients found in fruits and veggies e.g. see the tricolor diet book and other such.

Those nutrients are largely irrelevant unless you have a gut that can ferment those fruits and vegetables to extract those nutrients — as herbivores do. Remember, herbivores — who are equipped to digest plants — have to eat non-stop to obtain enough nutrients from plants in order to survive and thrive. The amount of nutrients in organ meant dwarfs that of plants

Furthermore, there are also numerous toxins found in plants. Most fruits and vegetables contain toxic phytates, lectins, oxalates, salicylates, phenols, glucosinolates, thiocyanates and cyanogenic glycosides. In small quantities, these toxins are harmless. In large quantities, these toxins can harm the gut and disrupt various hormones.

Finally, just because phytonutrients exist in plants does not mean that the human gut can extract those phytonutrients. Nor does it mean that toxins don't exist as well.

If there is one topic that people of the various nutritional schools of thought e.g. low carb, low fat agree on it is that eating lots of veggies and selected fruits are good for you.

As I mentioned above, fruits and vegetables are good for you. But, their role is mainly to cleanse and detoxify our bodies — not to nourish it. Unless you can find any evidence that shows the human stomach can extract and absorb all or most phytonutrients from plants — in the same way that an herbivore can (which must eat all day to obtain nourishment) — I don't see how the human gut could possibly obtain much nourishment from just three daily servings of fruits and vegetables.

Furthermore, the most significant "vitamin" listed in vegetables tends to be Vitamin A. But, plants never contain Retinol, the bioavailable form of Vitamin A. Plants contain Carotenoids, which the body must convert into Retinol. Vegetarians are quite bad at converting Carotenoids into Retinol. Therefore, a person might find that they can eat all of the carrots in the world, and still be deficient in Vitamin A.

The conclusion that can be drawn from the newer research is that fruits and vegetables are not as useful for obtaining vitamin A as was thought; in other words, the IUs that these foods were reported to contain were worth much less than the same number of IUs of fat-dissolved oils and (to some extent) supplements. This is important for vegetarians, as night blindness is prevalent in countries where little meat or vitamin A-fortified foods are available.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A

That's just another example of why plants are not very nutrient-dense.

At the moment I am eating a legume e.g. lentils, split peas or beans (adzuki)   most days and I have thought about the ....perhaps it is the paleo diet issue with legumes.

The anti-nutirents and phytic acid found in legumes are not good for your gut. If you are going to consume lots of grains or legumes — as many ancient cultures have done — you will need to properly prepare them as ancient cultures once did. That includes pre-soaking in an acid medium to remove the toxins and anti-nutirents. For instance, here is a video on the dying art of making real corn tortillas...

http://youtu.be/ZmclTpCxWXg

Traditionally, the corn was soaked in lye to neutralize the anti-nutrients. Today, most people skip that step and their bodies are worse off. Ancient cultures who consumed grains used to soak their grains and legumes.

I probably should look into your (theoretical as far as I can tell) concerns and review the paleo issue at some point.

It's not "theoretical". Just the facts...

Phytic acid has a strong binding affinity to important minerals, such as calcium, magnesium, iron, and zinc though the binding of calcium with phytic acid depends on pH and that ascorbic acid (vitamin C) can reduce phytic acid effects on iron. When a mineral binds to phytic acid, it becomes insoluble, precipitates and will be nonabsorbable in the intestines. This process can therefore contribute to mineral deficiencies in people whose diets rely on these foods for their mineral intake, such as those in developing countries
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytic_acid

Foods with high concentrations of lectins, such as beans, cereal grains, seeds, nuts, and potatoes, may be harmful if consumed in excess in uncooked or improperly cooked form. Adverse effects may include nutritional deficiencies, and immune (allergic) reactions. Possibly, most effects of lectins are due to gastrointestinal distress through interaction of the lectins with the gut epithelial cells. A recent in vitro study has suggested that the mechanism of lectin damage may occur by interfering with the repair of already-damaged epithelial cells.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectin

Salicylates are derivatives of salicylic acid that occur naturally in plants and serve as a natural immune hormone and preservative, protecting the plants against diseases, insects, fungi, and harmful bacteria. Salicylates can also be found in many medications, perfumes and preservatives. Both natural and synthetic salicylates can cause health problems in anyone when consumed in large doses. But for those who are salicylate intolerant, even small doses of salicylate can cause adverse reactions.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylate_sensitivity

The use of glucosinolate-containing crops as primary food source for animals has negative effects...Glucosinolates are well known for their toxic effects (mainly as goitrogens) in both humans and animals at high doses. In fact, they were even shown to alter animal behavior.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucosinolate

All of these plants have these [Cyanogenic] glycosides stored in the vacuole, but, if the plant is attacked, they are released and become activated by enzymes in the cytoplasm. These remove the sugar part of the molecule and release toxic hydrogen cyanide...An example of these is amygdalin from almonds. They can also be found in the fruits (and wilting leaves) of the rose family (including cherries, apples, plums, almonds, peaches, apricots, raspberries, and crabapples). Cassava, an important food plant in Africa and South America, contains cyanogenic glycosides and, therefore, has to be washed and ground under running water prior to consumption.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycoside

NB:  there is some really high level discussion on the track your plaque forum* and it MAY be that for some people saturated fats might actually be bad. This is based on blood tests.  I forget the details, but it has nothing to do with what your HDL, LDL are.

True. But, it's more complex than that. People are seeing some correlations in various individuals with specific genetic anomalies, but still don't entirely understand what the causation is.

[BearBones]

It's not "theoretical". Just the facts...

Gumby, such statements can easily discredit what you are trying to say. Unfortunately, with nutrition and the biology of the human body, there are VERY few facts. You are offering an educated and very convincing argument (similar to what MT has done for the role of bonds), but please do not confuse it with fact.

[Gumby]

Unfortunately, with nutrition and the biology of the human body, there are VERY few facts.

Well, that's not very reassuring. So, basically what you're saying is that almost all of the advice doctors give are nothing more than educated guesses? To bad they don't actually tell you that.