Advice to underemployed grads with useless majors and $150k of student loan debt

[Pointedstick]

I need the wisdom of the community. My wife's sister and her fiance are in a real bind right now. They graduated from college three years ago with about $50k of student loan debts, were unable to find jobs in their field (visual arts ), and went to an expensive for-profit grad school that they hated, so they dropped out after a year. But during that year, they accumulated more than $100k of additional debt, now putting them at more than $150k in the hole. One of them now has a low-wage  semi-skilled job that barely pays the rent, and the other is unemployed and can't find anything (he kind of has a bad attitude about job hunting). Interest on their debt alone grows by more than $500 a month. And it's student loan debt, so they can't get rid of it in bankruptcy.

Their situation seems hopeless to them, and to me too. Is there anything they can do, short of fleeing the country, robbing a bank, or committing to poverty for the next 25 years, at which point the income-based repayment plan will forgive the outstanding balance? I just don't know what to tell them. It's amazing how easy it is to screw up decades of your life with a few bad financial decisions related to college. I mean, at least an underwater house can be walked away from, and credit card debt can be reduced or forgiven by a bankruptcy judge. But this undischargeable student loan debt is a real killer.

[WildAboutHarry]

Is it a government-sponsored student loan or a private loan?  I think the BK rules are different between the two.

I don't think there is any way around having to buckle down, get whatever jobs they can, and start working down the debt.  It won't be pretty.

But as my spendthrift parents used to say, at least debt collectors cannot eat you.

While his investment advice is terrible, Dave Ramsey's book (can't remember the title) can be helpful in outlining at least some sort of path to handling and overcoming debt.

[BearBones]

Perhaps start a business which does not have high overhead. The people that clean my house and mow my lawn both earn way over $20/hr when I do the math. If one of my kids could not find a job, I would have them clean, mow, or take care of pets, accumulate enough money to start hiring others to help, and grow a little business.

[Ad Orientem]

[dualstow]

I was thinking about a military option for them as well, since it could pay for more education, but since they've already graduated; visual arts might be on the other end of the spectrum from soldiering; and it's dangerous to be a soldier or sailor these days, I held back.

This is certainly a sticky situation. In all honesty, I would probably guilt-trip my brother the UNIX hacker who wisely set up a pp. This would allow me to go to night school while taking a shit job in the daytime, like waiting tables. (And if I were the brother, esp. an in-law, I might politely decline that request. I don't know).

Not into job-hunting = a bad sign. I don't think anyone likes it, except those talented souls who are being hunted. This must put a strain on the upcoming marriage.

[Ad Orientem]

I was thinking about a military option for them as well, since it could pay for more education, but since they've already graduated; visual arts might be on the other end of the spectrum from soldiering; and it's dangerous to be a soldier or sailor these days, I held back.

Being a sailor is not especially dangerous. But avoid the Army and the Marines unless you have an affinity for sand fleas and lead poisoning. If we are talking bachelors degrees they might be able to apply for a commission. But even as an enlisted man the pay is not bad and the benefits are excellent. You can easily survive on a fraction of your pay if you live on board ship and dine off the government's food instead of eating out. Skip the car and don't hang out with all the guys who get their pay and immediately convert it into liquid assets (which are then consumed in the local watering hole).

This is certainly a sticky situation. In all honesty, I would probably guilt-trip my brother the UNIX hacker who wisely set up a pp. This would allow me to go to night school while taking a shit job in the daytime, like waiting tables. (And if I were the brother, esp. an in-law, I might politely decline that request. I don't know).

Not into job-hunting = a bad sign. I don't think anyone likes it, except those talented souls who are being hunted. This must put a strain on the upcoming marriage.

Not into job hunting would be a deal breaker for me in any prospective marriage. But maybe my standards are too high as I appear to be on the road to lifelong bachelorhood. Or maybe I'm just smarter than most other people  .

[l82start]

job hunting has become a job in and of itself, requiring insight into the hiring practices of the company's you are applying with, the latest formats for letters of introduction and resumes to selling your experience and skill sets and enthusiasm to prospective employers, it is not an easy or fun job and not liking it is understandable, but unless you have a inside connection (something that is becoming more and more necessary) it's unavoidable.
i wish i was better at it myself.. i long for the good old days and showing up with a respectable work ethic and short list of previous employers that liked your work was enough..

[dualstow]

... and it's dangerous to be a soldier or sailor these days...

Being a sailor is not especially dangerous. But avoid the Army and the Marines unless you have an affinity for sand fleas ...

Still, I met some guys in brown camo fatigues in the airport a few months ago. They were coming home from Afghanistan. My dad, ex-navy, asked them about their uniforms, because their fatigues did say "US NAVY"). They replied that Navy wears the same color over there. What were they doing in landlocked Afghanistan? Something to do with bridges, if I recall. Still dangerous, though.

...
Not into job-hunting = a bad sign. ... This must put a strain on the upcoming marriage.

Not into job hunting would be a deal breaker for me in any prospective marriage. But maybe my standards are too high as I appear to be on the road to lifelong bachelorhood. Or maybe I'm just smarter than most other people  .

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

[Ad Orientem]

Still, I met some guys in brown camo fatigues in the airport a few months ago. They were coming home from Afghanistan. My dad, ex-navy, asked them about their uniforms, because their fatigues did say "US NAVY"). They replied that Navy wears the same color over there. What were they doing in landlocked Afghanistan? Something to do with bridges, if I recall. Still dangerous, though.

The Marines are part of the Navy, though I advise against pointing that out to them in a bar unless you are ready to throw down. But the upshot is that there are certain Navy ratings that do spend time humping hills and dodging bullets with the Marines. Notable on that list are Navy Corpsmen (Medics in the Army). Also Navy Seabees are a ground combat unit. But in general the Navy is pretty safe comparative to the Army or the Marines.

[Pointedstick]

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. I should clarify that it's not that my future brother-in-law isn't looking for work; it's more like his depressiveness and cynicism prevents him from getting past any interviews.

About the Navy, I'd actually thought of that too, and I think my sister-in-law could probably manage it, but her fiance is definitely NOT the kind of person who would thrive in the military. I think he's just too sensitive. Great guy, and a terrific artist, too. But not cut out for military service.

Housecleaning or lawn mowing is a good idea as well, but I think they might see it as beneath them. That's sort of part of the problem; they have a rather entitled attitude, which leads them to do things like use credit cards to pay for vacations to disneyand and their upcoming honeymoon. They pay for a gym membership and still eat out with friends, too.

[MediumTex]

Their situation seems hopeless to them, and to me too. Is there anything they can do, short of fleeing the country, robbing a bank, or committing to poverty for the next 25 years, at which point the income-based repayment plan will forgive the outstanding balance? I just don't know what to tell them. It's amazing how easy it is to screw up decades of your life with a few bad financial decisions related to college. I mean, at least an underwater house can be walked away from, and credit card debt can be reduced or forgiven by a bankruptcy judge. But this undischargeable student loan debt is a real killer.

They are now slaves.  They sold their freedom for a few years of play in an academic environment.

They followed bad advice and they will suffer because the system is geared to protect the interests of those who profit from taking young people's freedom from them just as they are starting out in life.

If one of them gets a terminal illness, a bankruptcy judge may consider discharging the student loan debt, so long as death is imminent.

The situation you are describing sucks.  Leaving the country is actually not a terrible idea.

[BearBones]

Housecleaning or lawn mowing is a good idea as well, but I think they might see it as beneath them. That's sort of part of the problem; they have a rather entitled attitude, which leads them to do things like use credit cards to pay for vacations to disneyand and their upcoming honeymoon.

My son kind of went through that. But if you don't shelter people from reality, they will work, IMO. They will clean sewers. My son was just getting to the point where he had to sell his prized computer to pay rent to Mom and Dad (on top of the usual chores and restrictions that go with living at home), and he woke up. At least temporarily...

[Tortoise]

Do they live near a big city with a vibrant arts or entertainment scene? That's probably where their visual arts training would be in the highest demand and most likely to land them jobs that pay more than menial, low-skilled jobs.

For example, they might consider moving to New York, Los Angeles (Hollywood), San Francisco, or somewhere like that. (I have several friends with art/graphic design backgrounds who work in Hollywood doing animation, and they make enough money to get by.) The downside, of course, is that it's very expensive to live in those cities, but at least both of them would have a much higher chance of being fully employed in the visual arts.

Also, since the debt is a fixed dollar amount but their salaries will tend to be higher in those big cities, funneling X% of a big-city income into debt payments would tend to pay off the debt faster.

If they don't want to live near one of those big cities, and if the guy really has a bad attitude about job-hunting, they may want to consider the entrepreneurial option of starting their own web-based visual arts business. One of my relatives (a graphic artist) did that when he moved to a very inexpensive area in the middle of nowhere in order to afford a house. He works with various small businesses doing graphic design, web design, marketing, branding, etc. But he's a "people person," which I think was important in helping him build up his customer base.

[Pointedstick]

Tortoise, thank you so much. That's all excellent advice! You mentioned you have some friends who do animation in L.A. ...no pressure of course, but would you be willing to perhaps make an introduction? My sister-in-law and her fiance are both good animators, and the fiance has an online portfolio full of awesome stuff: rustthisworld.com

They are both under the impression that the only animation jobs are in China or Indonesia, so I'm extremely heartened to hear that someone still pays Americans to do it! 

[rhymenocerous]

I don't really have any specific answers for them, but I just wanted to point out that there's plenty of cheap/free ways to learn new skills without having to pay an arm and a leg for a degree.  Want to learn about accounting and reading financial statements?  Find a book on the subject.  Want to learn how to program?  Take a course at MIT's OpenCourseware.  These can be put under the skills and interests section of a resume.  Better yet, try to volunteer to work on a project involving some of these skills, then you can tie it into work experience.

[WiseOne]

I used to live in Los Angeles and knew a few people trying to make it in the entertainment industry.  They were very talented but earned barely enough to get by - which is far more common than striking it rich.  Same holds true in NYC.

What about getting a teaching certificate and then working in an underprivileged area?  That's one of the ways to get student loan debt forgiven.  Also, some types of student debt can be cancelled if you volunteer for the Peace Corps.

What was the graduate program they were in?  They might be able to find another way to finish those degrees, if they are assured of a reasonable chance of finding a good job afterward.  Many universities have evening classes, for example, that let you work during the day.  And it's likely that the loan could be in deferment or forbearance as long as they're half-time (= 2 classes).

[Gosso]

My brother is a graphic designer and is making decent money designing websites.  He got the job from a friend at his college.  It's not the soul vivifying work he hoped for, but he's pulling in around $50,000 or so, plus he works from home in a fairly cheap city.  He would like to do something more creative, but lacks the people skills necessary to attract the right clients.

It's difficult for artists to settle for a job that doesn't match their creativity, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do:



Unless one lives below their means, pays off their debt, builds a solid PP, then is free do as they like.  Or figure out a way to cultivate a passion for the job.

[Tortoise]

Tortoise, thank you so much. That's all excellent advice! You mentioned you have some friends who do animation in L.A. ...no pressure of course, but would you be willing to perhaps make an introduction? My sister-in-law and her fiance are both good animators, and the fiance has an online portfolio full of awesome stuff: rustthisworld.com

I can send the online portfolio link to a couple of my friends. If they're open to possibly answering some questions or sharing a professional pointer or two, I'll send you a private message with the contact info.

[MachineGhost]

Housecleaning or lawn mowing is a good idea as well, but I think they might see it as beneath them. That's sort of part of the problem; they have a rather entitled attitude, which leads them to do things like use credit cards to pay for vacations to disneyand and their upcoming honeymoon. They pay for a gym membership and still eat out with friends, too.

Well that says it all.  Like a government bureaucracy, nothing will change until something comes along to sweep it all away.

There's very little you can do because it is a psychological problem.  I would just stand clear so you don't get caught up in the blowback.

[smurff]

an online portfolio full of awesome stuff: rustthisworld.com

And he's into RC combat bots!  My fave on his list has got to be Thracktar.

There's got to be a way to combine his visual art talent and combat robot design experience into consulting/contract work, if not his own entertainment company.  He has too much talent to waste.

If Tortoise's suggestion doesn't work, it's sad, but the two of them may have to leave the country until debt slavery comes to an end. 

[MachineGhost]

Despite what I said before, I can't resist throwing a bone.  

You can't get more idiot-proof than this: https://www.readyforzero.com/