Anti-U.S. Protests in the Muslim World

[MediumTex]

What should we do? I think we should try to set up dictators who are friendly to us in as many of these uncivilized countries as we can. They unfortunately would be much better than the alternative of radical Islamic fundamentalist regimes (with nukes, no less). We should NOT be forcing the few friendly dictators that are remaining out of power, as our dear leader has recently done.

That was apparently the policy with Iraq and Saddam Hussein, but I guess it's hard to keep psychotic thugs in line.

Do you think that the U.S. should have handed over the leadership of Iraq to another Hussein-like psycho?

OTOH, democracy may not a good idea in a place where the majority wants to see you dead.

[LonerMatt]

This thread is revolting.

[dualstow]

You are right.  Sorry about that.

No problem.
And I apologize to Loner Matt in advance...

Do you think that the U.S. should have handed over the leadership of Iraq to another Hussein-like psycho?

It is interesting to note that in our, the West's, absence -- and I'm with you and Tenn, Craig, and others that our military should be absent -- thuggish dicatators tend to be replaced by thuggish dictators. That is why they torture and kill so many innocents when they are on top: I'd call it paranoia but enough challengers really are out to get them.

This is laid out clearly in The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones. I think it's the chapter called "The Consequences of Careerism", although that section is mostly about corruption.

Having said that, I think it'll be interesting to see how the Arab spring plays out.
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(Edited in wiki link)

[dualstow]

Like I said in my other post: As long as we're sucking on the tit of petro products... are you comfortable handing over control of the engine that runs modern society to a bunch of booger-eating barbarians?  Say what you will about the Christian Right... but at least they're not still wiping their asses with the same hand they eat with.

How can we "hand over" something that is not ours to begin with?

Sometimes it does happen after regime decapitation: like at the end of Sling Blade.

[stone]

This thread is revolting.

Matt, please explain what you think everyone should do. Perhaps you mean everyone should keep their opinions to themselves? I really don't understand. I'm very against imperialism and have said so and so have other people on this thread. Coffee and Reub think they have a "policeman of the world" duty to uphold and have said so. Are both view points revolting to you? To me this forum is worthwhile because people do get to try and understand each other's viewpoints.

[Reub]

"Do you think that the U.S. should have handed over the leadership of Iraq to another Hussein-like psycho?"

Absolutely. As long as he is our psycho.


"As I've pointed out before, your beef is also with Romney (and Bush).  Getting rid of dictators and replacing them with democracy is Bush's "Freedom Agenda".

I agree as far as Bush is concerned, but Romney is still innoculated from criticism on this point. Obama certainly is not as he has unleashed the medieval dragons with his policy of apology and appeasement throughout the world. He is creating dozens of new Irans, I believe intentionally because no one can be that dumb.

"Coffee and Reub think they have a "policeman of the world" duty to uphold and have said so."

I think that we need to shape the world in a positive way, protect and support our allies, destroy those enemies that would harm us, and keep the strongest military ever known to man so as to keep our own nation safe and strong.

[stone]

What should we do? I think we should try to set up dictators who are friendly to us in as many of these uncivilized countries as we can. They unfortunately would be much better than the alternative of radical Islamic fundamentalist regimes (with nukes, no less). We should NOT be forcing the few friendly dictators that are remaining out of power, as our dear leader has recently done.

I really think hatred comes from hatred and generates hatred. How do you account for the fact that these supposidly "uncivilized countries" actually had very long lasting thriving religious minorities for hundreds of years? Baghdad was 30% Jewish before WWII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ws_in_Iraq . How is that reconcilable with the idea that gets put about that Arab Muslims are irredeemably hell bent on attacking everyone who doesn't follow Islam?

If we showed ourselves to have some humanity and respect for other people then IMO we would be more likely to get the same back in return.

[Benko]

If we showed ourselves to have some humanity and respect for other people then IMO we would be more likely to get the same back in return.

Didn't Obama just show how well that works?

[Reub]

I believe that is a naive approach and is not consistent with historical fact. It is very dangerous as well.

[Pointedstick]

"Coffee and Reub think they have a "policeman of the world" duty to uphold and have said so."

I think that we need to shape the world in a positive way

I tend to think that statements like this are very similar to socialists saying "statism can work, if only we get the right people into power!" I mean, in an ideal world yes, our foreign policy would be able to shape the world in a positive way. But back in reality, look at the actual results, especially when it comes to the middle east. Endless wars with ill-defined goals, support for dictators who we then later topple, funneling arms to groups who turn around and try to kill us... I really can't see any shining examples of us shaping the world in a positive way in the middle east. Can you provide me with any examples of how our foreign policy has shaped the middle east in a positive way?

[stone]

Reub

I think that we need to shape the world in a positive way, protect and support our allies, destroy those enemies that would harm us, and keep the strongest military ever known to man so as to keep our own nation safe and strong.

What exactly does "strong" mean? I understand wanting to be safe but wanting to be strong sounds dumb to me.

[Reub]

Reub

I think that we need to shape the world in a positive way, protect and support our allies, destroy those enemies that would harm us, and keep the strongest military ever known to man so as to keep our own nation safe and strong.

What exactly does "strong" mean? I understand wanting to be safe but wanting to be strong sounds dumb to me.

being strong is a great thing if you walk softly and only use the strength in self defense, the problem is when you start throwing that weight around and it becomes perceived as a threat.
it comes down to how you define "enemies" and "would harm us" how do you separate those who really would harm us from those who see us throwing our weight around and start posturing and making threats to try to keep us out of their business?

We forged a lasting peace agreement between Israel, Egypt, and Jordan (I have to give Carter credit for this as much as I didn't care for him). Unfortunately Obama has thrown most of that away by his undermining of our ally Mubarak and his appeasement of the Muslim Brotherhood.

[dualstow]

I really think hatred comes from hatred and generates hatred. How do you account for the fact that these supposidly "uncivilized countries" actually had very long lasting thriving religious minorities for hundreds of years? Baghdad was 30% Jewish before WWII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ws_in_Iraq . How is that reconcilable with the idea that gets put about that Arab Muslims are irredeemably hell bent on attacking everyone who doesn't follow Islam?

Stone, from your link (Bolded text is bolded by me):

From the Babylonian period to the rise of the Islamic caliphate, the Jewish community of Babylon throve as the center of Jewish learning. The Mongol invasion and Islamic discrimination in the Middle Ages led to its decline.[3] Under the Ottoman Empire, the Jews of Iraq fared better.

I guess the only bright side is that the U.S. inherits some interesting investment minds of those who flee. Roubini is of Iranian-(not Iraqi-)Jewish  extraction. Taleb's mentor and father of fractals Benoit Mandelbrot came from a Jewish family who fled the Nazis.
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Stone, also from your link, Modern Iraq section:

Sociologist Philip Mendes asserts that before the anti-Jewish actions of the 1930s and 1940s, overall Iraqi Jews "viewed themselves as Arabs of the Jewish faith, rather than as a separate race or nationality".

[Reub]

Why do I like this story so much?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/internatio ... Gc2uKrGyIM

This from the story:

"In an apparent case of red, white and blue revenge, a Pakistani protester died yesterday after inhaling smoke from a burning American flag during an anti-US rally."

[Pointedstick]

Why do I like this story so much?

Schadenfreude, perhaps?

[Reub]

And I thought that it might have been more a case of fahrvergnügen.

[MediumTex]

And I thought that it might have been more a case of fahrvergnügen.

Perhaps more like fukenchoken.

I see a Darwin Award in that fellow's future.

[Reub]

M.T. Did I just get cursed out in a foreign language or are you just happy to see me?

[MediumTex]

M.T. Did I just get cursed out in a foreign language or are you just happy to see me?

I was just seeking the right word to describe the fellow's experience.

[Reub]

Yes. I can see where this would have been an accurate description of his situation. And he probably blamed it all on that amateur film-maker up until his last breath.

[stone]

I really think hatred comes from hatred and generates hatred. How do you account for the fact that these supposidly "uncivilized countries" actually had very long lasting thriving religious minorities for hundreds of years? Baghdad was 30% Jewish before WWII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ws_in_Iraq . How is that reconcilable with the idea that gets put about that Arab Muslims are irredeemably hell bent on attacking everyone who doesn't follow Islam?

Stone, from your link (Bolded text is bolded by me):

From the Babylonian period to the rise of the Islamic caliphate, the Jewish community of Babylon throve as the center of Jewish learning. The Mongol invasion and Islamic discrimination in the Middle Ages led to its decline.[3] Under the Ottoman Empire, the Jews of Iraq fared better.

I guess the only bright side is that the U.S. inherits some interesting investment minds of those who flee. Roubini is of Iranian-(not Iraqi-)Jewish  extraction. Taleb's mentor and father of fractals Benoit Mandelbrot came from a Jewish family who fled the Nazis.
---
Stone, also from your link, Modern Iraq section:

Sociologist Philip Mendes asserts that before the anti-Jewish actions of the 1930s and 1940s, overall Iraqi Jews "viewed themselves as Arabs of the Jewish faith, rather than as a separate race or nationality".

Nevertheless 30% of Baghdad was Jewish before WWII. Jews did prosper in the Islamic world at a time when for instance all Jews were expelled from England. I really don't think it stands scrutiny to claim that the Islamic world has overall treated Jews worse through history than Christians have.

[dualstow]

Nevertheless 30% of Baghdad was Jewish before WWII. Jews did prosper in the Islamic world at a time when for instance all Jews were expelled from England. I really don't think it stands scrutiny to claim that the Islamic world has overall treated Jews worse through history than Christians have.

I cannot disagree with that last sentence. Now, I hate the overzealous and often unfounded complaints of antisemitism as much as the next person, but the factmy feeling is, Jews have been pretty poorly treated by everyone but other Jews. Some places are "perma-hate" and some take turns. This decade, things are heating up in Sweden of all places.

Of course as far as militant Muslims are concerned, we're all Jews.

[tgif]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/ ... -Filmmaker
This from the article by John Nolte:
Oh, the brilliant irony!

What a wonderful thing the internet is, no longer do we have to swallow without thinking the proffered, illogical explanations given by our politicians and spread by pop media.  Hmmm, who attends demonstrations with RPG's, on 9/11, incensed about a movie released several months ago?  Hunt down, with domestic law enforcement the filmmaker, pressure Google to retract the trailer.  Is the year 1984?  Luckily, we have bloggers who can see through smoke and mirrors intended to distract us from the true factors.

The same holds for those hoodlums in China, incited by their media to a destroy Japanese property.  Distract from the true economic issues and causes of corruption.

As an optimist, who notes no country with MacDonalds has ever invaded another, we need only wait for smartphones, wifi and the internet to infect the next generation.  They'll be so interested in keeping up with JLo they'll forget about who was the true messiah!

[Reub]

Yes, tgif, everybody needs a scapegoat to deflect from blame and negative attention.

[stone]

dualstow

Under the Ottoman Empire, the Jews of Iraq fared better

I'm not sure I understand why you emphasized this. The Ottoman Empire was Islamic and had an extensive tradition of protecting religious minorities (Christians as well as Jews). Are you meaning that you think only Turkish and not Arab Islamic rulers can be trusted to protect minorities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire