Goodbye Facebook

Post by **craigr** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:20 pm

I signed up with Facebook several years back. This week I deleted my account (not deactivated, but deleted). In general the service was interesting because it allowed people I had lost contact with to reconnect (my intent for signing up), but I also found it kind of creepy. The service was very good at aggregating information and drawing conclusions about your life and associations.

First, there was the awkward position of having to either ignore "friend" requests from people you really didn't know or "unfriending" people. Kind of like an Orwellian memory hole of sorts.

Secondly, it is extremely difficult to remove information and it is never deleted once you post it. It may not really be deleted once you "delete" your account for all we know despite their claims. The service makes it deliberately hard to delete information. Even automated scripts to purge your wall of all posts are routinely broken by the service intentionally to keep them from working. Want to unfriend people en masse? Nope. You have to do it one at a time. Even scripts to do it are broken intentionally it seems. They don't want you deleting anything from the service. If your account is active, even if you delete a post, comment, etc. it will still be there attached to your account forever.

Next up is the government angle. I'm quite certain Facebook happily cooperates in all requests for information on people. Perhaps with subpoena only, but then again maybe not? Here is a sample of what the authorities receive when they ask for it, I wonder what they'd see in your profile if they read it?

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/facebook/here ... oena/11528

You can download the partial archive of your profile. I recommend trying it once to see the data collected on who you friend, who you unfriend, where you login from, what computers you use to do it, images you post, etc. Keep in mind it's not even complete what they have about you, but is instructional:

http://www.facebook.com/help/?page=116481065103985

I never posted anything to be concerned with, but things can be taken out of context or twisted all the time. Why give someone a blow-by-blow dossier on where you go, who you go with, your private opinions with your friends, what you are doing in your private photos, what you say in chat sessions, etc.? Employers and schools now try to get this information as well. Same thing for lawsuits, divorce, etc. What you post on Facebook will stay around, possibly forever. So don't post anything there you don't want being read aloud in court or printed in the newspaper one day. Even something innocent and said as a joke could be used against you.

My real-life friends would also check me in with them when we went out to eat, play, etc.. Thanks for that. I already know I'm eating with you and I don't need Facebook to know. And I'm sure nobody cares what you ate for lunch either. Sure you can "disable" this feature. But just because it's not publicly shown doesn't mean Facebook isn't storing it away. They would also tag me in photos. I'm sure that Facebook's facial recognition algorithms appreciate the data for some future unknown application that probably isn't in my interest either.

Then, I started receiving spam messages that had real names of people I knew in them (fake addresses, just real names to fool spam filters as matches in the address book). The only way spammers could have gotten that information is probably from a Facebook leak such as a rogue app (I never loaded any apps, but who knows what your "friends" do on there that have access to your own list of "friends"). I figure there are bots trolling the thing for this information and last I checked you couldn't disable the ability of your friends from browsing your list of friends. In other words, there are third-parties with definitely hostile intentions data mining the service for your personal details, friends, photos and associations. Even if Facebook is innocent of these nefarious things, these other parties are certainly not.

I never put in any personal data (even fake birthday), but I found relatives trying to tag me in photos and listing out my family relationships with them. Honestly I already know who I'm related to and I don't need a reminder in Facebook about it. It's just blatant information harvesting. I feel the entire thing is just one big fat intelligence gathering operation.

So I realized that the service needs to go from my life. I may return and keep a placeholder account there just in case someone needs to contact me. But otherwise I don't intend to actively participate in the service going forward. I think the hype has worn off (at least for me). I keep a page for the blog and book, but other than that I even pulled the "like" buttons off the webpage. I don't need Facebook tracking who is going to my website either.

Anyone else dumped Facebook or refused to go on?

Post by **MediumTex** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:30 pm

I've never gone on, so no need to dump.

notsheigetz · Post by **notsheigetz** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:06 pm

I deleted my account a few months ago for many of the same reasons as you but to be perfectly honest my primary reason was to prevent myself from making drunken posts that I ended up regretting in the morning.

AdamA · Post by **AdamA** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:39 pm

notsheigetz wrote: ...to be perfectly honest my primary reason was to prevent myself from making drunken posts that I ended up regretting in the morning.

I thought that's what text messaging was for.

smurff · Post by **smurff** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:48 pm

I dumped my account a couple of years ago, after a privacy change brouhaha made people angry. I deleted along with another mass of people. Before that I used it pretty much the same way craigR did.

I deleted my account back then. But I have so many teenaged relatives in my extended family, and at a time when my siblings and elders were concerned about the kind of stupid, illegal, and dangerous things the news media have reported that teenagers do online--bully each other into committing suicide, post child porn of themselves, set up contract hits on teachers, chat up pimps and sex perverts, arrange their own kidnappings--they felt it was a good idea to have as many adult relatives looking in as possible to make certain no one got killed. I did so under a fake name, fake email address, fake details. The friends aren't even the same--my real (original) Facebook account was about friends and colleagues; this one is only about family. All I do is go online every few days, look at what this one said to that one, log off. From time to time I'll "like" something one of them said, or I'll ask how school was today. Some of their friends have friended me and I've added them and "liked" their postings. So far, it's not the teens in the family putting stupid stuff on Facebook, it's some of the adults.

Still, I have the sick suspicion that Facebook knows its the real me, and not fake me. Every few weeks I'm tempted to shut down the whole thing.

Now craigR, you've got my mind thinking again about deleting the fake account.

Last week, there was a mini scandal where AuthorSolutions, a book publisher, had set up several fake Facebook accounts, using stock photos available online. They blamed it on an employee. When someone with a blog recognized the photo and saw that the exact same photo was on a variety of Facebook pages under different names/job functions at the company, the SHTF. The embarrassed publisher got rid of them and issued "him a culpas" (the "him" being the employee) over the matter.

Facebook has also been on a campaign to get rid of what they call fake Facebook accounts--which may or may not mean the same thing that I mean when I use that term. I'm not sure if the fakes are zombie accounts set up by account bots, or if they are set up by real people. Apparently lots of corporate advertisers are wary that the fake accounts are being used for some nefarious purpose, like generating thousands of fake "likes" and increasing their advertising fees. I vaguely recall reading that a couple of corporatins moved their advertising off Facebook for that reason. Facebook apparently has been purging tens of thousands of them daily. Now that they're a public company, they have to pay attention to this stuff.

It's weird being involved with a company where more than 70% of the people using the company actively hates or distrusts them, according to various surveys and stats.

Ad Orientem · Post by **Ad Orientem** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:56 pm

Never signed up. My first issue is that like Craig and a lot of others I think Facebook has a few too many Big Brother aspects to it. My other issue is that I think it promotes antisocial behavior. When I went back to school as a non-traditional student after more than 10 years in the Navy I had to spend a semester living in a dorm/campus apartment with three other guys. They were all younger than me and two were not even old enough to legally drink (not that it slowed them down). We all had our own rooms and it was to put it mildly, an unusual experience.

One thing that stood out was the lack of social interaction among a lot of the younger guys. I remember working on a paper one night in my room. My door was open and the guy who lived across the hall had his door open too. We could see each other at our desks. Suddenly an IM popped up on my computer screen from him asking me if I had a certain professor for any of my courses. I almost freaked out. I was like "dude! I am less than 10 feet from you with both our doors open and in clear line of sight. You couldn't turn your head and address me verbally?"

He said it was just easier to IM. That was the exact moment I realized that tech was a seriously double edged sword and was going to create an entire generation of social incompetents. Another issue is the whole "friends" thing. Maybe I am old fashioned. But where I come from a "friend" is someone you would step in front of a train for. I have a lot of online acquaintances. Many seem like very nice people, and probably are. But I have no friends that I have never met.

I think the whole thing is psychologically and socially debasing. Facebook and a lot of similar sites and programs have done to the concept of "friendship" what the Federal Reserve has done to our money. Cheapened the very word.

Tortoise · Post by **Tortoise** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:08 pm

craigr wrote: I started receiving spam messages that had real names of people I knew in them (fake addresses, just real names to fool spam filters as matches in the address book). The only way spammers could have gotten that information is probably from a Facebook leak such as a rogue app

I started receiving those spam e-mails about a month ago. The name on the message is one you know, but the content is just a hyperlink to an unfamiliar URL. One of my family members said they also started getting them about a month ago, too. I hadn't thought about the fact that it may have had something to do with Facebook.

I've toyed with the idea of deleting my Facebook account for a while now for several reasons--mainly the silliness of it all and the lack of privacy. Your post has finally given me that last little nudge I needed to just dump the account.

I feel so empowered!

MachineGhost · Post by **MachineGhost** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:29 pm

I had mine deactivated, but just went ahead and deleted it.

I malevolently suspect that people, especially Generation Z, are going to be very sorry they ever used Facebook in the years ahead.

Post by **l82start** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:29 pm

never signed up and never had any interest in doing so, for the same reasons and privacy fears listed by others already..

Post by **craigr** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:07 pm

Tortoise wrote:
craigr wrote: I started receiving spam messages that had real names of people I knew in them (fake addresses, just real names to fool spam filters as matches in the address book). The only way spammers could have gotten that information is probably from a Facebook leak such as a rogue app
I started receiving those spam e-mails about a month ago. The name on the message is one you know, but the content is just a hyperlink to an unfamiliar URL. One of my family members said they also started getting them about a month ago, too. I hadn't thought about the fact that it may have had something to do with Facebook.

I noticed them starting about a month ago as well. The only commonality the names had is they were all in my Facebook Friends list. I didn't run any apps, but I suspect someone else did. That app probably went through the friends list, copied all the personal contact information (you make that available to your friends normally) and then completed the harvesting by moving to the next friend on the list. I suspect that's also why spam to my personal e-mail has also ticked up so much as well is my e-mail address finally got harvested. Just a guess, but it's all I could come up with based on the names I saw.

But consider what people put in their personal information:

Name
Birthday
Phone Number
E-Mails
Hobbies, etc.
Relatives

It's an ID thief's dream come true. If they get your name and your relative links to you as "son" or whatever then they could get things like maiden names, etc. You can do a ton of damage with someone's name, phone number and mother's maiden name harvested from Facebook. Just to name one example…

Post by **dualstow** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:27 pm

Hi Craig

Signed up a few years ago, reconnected with old classmates and friends.
Deactivated (but did not delete) 3-4 months ago.

Having wonderful time.

TripleB · Post by **TripleB** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:09 pm

craigr wrote: Secondly, it is extremely difficult to remove information and it is never deleted once you post it.
...
They don't want you deleting anything from the service. If your account is active, even if you delete a post, comment, etc. it will still be there attached to your account forever.

Craig,

Do you have a source or evidence for this? I don't doubt it's true on the "back end" somewhere, but when I've deleted posts/comments, I no longer see them.

The way I've been using FB for the last few years is to post comments and status updates and then at the end of the week, meticulously go through and delete them all, and it seems to work, at least on the surface.

My thought is that this is slightly more "safe" behavior that lets me interact with friends but avoids having something I said 3 years ago taken completely out of context.

I'm downloading my archives as we speak (to include the extended archive) and I'll see what's in there.

Post by **craigr** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:21 pm

TripleB wrote:
craigr wrote: Secondly, it is extremely difficult to remove information and it is never deleted once you post it.
...
They don't want you deleting anything from the service. If your account is active, even if you delete a post, comment, etc. it will still be there attached to your account forever.
Craig,

Do you have a source or evidence for this? I don't doubt it's true on the "back end" somewhere, but when I've deleted posts/comments, I no longer see them.

They are likely still there. Multiple reports about the service indicate they keep these "deleted" records attached to your account. They will hand them over if asked.

My thought is that this is slightly more "safe" behavior that lets me interact with friends but avoids having something I said 3 years ago taken completely out of context.

I'm downloading my archives as we speak (to include the extended archive) and I'll see what's in there.

If it's deleted, I am willing to bet it's just flagged to no display, but is still there. Don't say anything on Facebook (or anywhere on the Internet - including here) that you don't want known to everyone. Even this forum, we can't control what is archived by search engines, etc.

TripleB · Post by **TripleB** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:27 pm

It finally finished my archive of personal data. I did both the lightweight version and the full version and neither had the stuff I've deleted. Of course, FB likely still has it on their servers so they can parse and data mine it.

swmurray · Post by **swmurray** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:28 pm

FB is not your friend.

from last year...
http://news.yahoo.com/austrian-student- ... 03250.html

from this week...
http://news.yahoo.com/twitter-surrender ... ector.html

So what are the privacy practices of this PP forum, and the company who owns the servers which hosts this forum? How long are these posts kept, and by whom? I appaud Clive in his practices of removing posts.

For all FB, PP forum, twitter, on-line email, etc...
To whom does the government serve the supoena if they want to see what was posted and by whom? Does the supoena come to you, or does it go to the hosting company? It seems to me that whatever is posted, anywhere on the web, never belonged to the poster.

I read George Orwell in school, and 1984 left a big impression on me.

Post by **craigr** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:36 pm

swmurray wrote: So what are the privacy practices of this PP forum, and the company who owns the servers which hosts this forum? How long are these posts kept, and by whom? I appaud Clive in his practices of removing posts.

For all FB, PP forum, twitter, on-line email, etc...
To whom does the government serve the supoena if they want to see what was posted and by whom? Does the supoena come to you, or does it go to the hosting company? It seems to me that whatever is posted, anywhere on the web, never belonged to the poster.

We have no way to recover deleted posts. We do not control what is archived here by third parties such as Google, etc. as the forum is publicly available. What you see on the forum is what we have available. You are welcome to delete posts, but in general I recommend just not saying anything publicly on the Internet that you don't want seen by your employer, lawyers, etc. No site can promise privacy in these matters once put on the web.

Post by **MediumTex** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:43 pm

swmurray wrote: I read George Orwell in school, and 1984 left a big impression on me.

It left a big impression on me too.

Welcome to the forum.

Post by **craigr** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:46 pm

MediumTex wrote:
swmurray wrote: I read George Orwell in school, and 1984 left a big impression on me.
It left a big impression on me too.

He was way ahead of his time. I wonder what he'd think about Facebook where people volunteer their most private information so willingly?

TripleB · Post by **TripleB** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:39 am

I heard something about Google recently that applies to FB and this conversation.

You are not Google's customer, you are their product. If you have a problem logging into Gmail, there's no 1-800 number for you to call for help. Gmail's customers are the company's paying them to serve ads to you.

The same applies to FB.

MachineGhost · Post by **MachineGhost** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:50 am

Facebook Wants You To Snitch On Friends Not Using Their Real Name

http://paulbernal.wordpress.com/2012/09 ... nitchgate/

MachineGhost · Post by **MachineGhost** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:29 am

Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

http://www.mondaynote.com/2012/09/23/fa ... nightmare/

Ad Orientem · Post by **Ad Orientem** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:40 pm

Facebook flooded with complaints after messages 'bug'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/f ... s-bug.html

smurff · Post by **smurff** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:42 pm

Facebook shares drop after Barron's snub

At one point today, FB shares lost 10% in price. They finished down 9.06%, still a pretty steep fall.

All because an analyst said they might be worth $15 at best, something a variety of captive and independent analysts have been saying since (at least) May:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/09/2 ... IL20120924

Post by **craigr** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:30 pm

MachineGhost wrote: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare

http://www.mondaynote.com/2012/09/23/fa ... nightmare/

De-anonymizing is not fiction! I had considered writing a tool to do this years back but decided it could only be used for bad purposes and dropped it. I have seen early versions of tools that did this later however. They will use word patterns, sentence structure, typos, etc. to build a confidence factor of a person being the same across multiple text sets. I am sure the technology must be far more advanced now.

Post by **dualstow** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:30 pm

craigr wrote:
MachineGhost wrote: Facebook's Gen Y Nightmare
http://www.mondaynote.com/2012/09/23/fa ... nightmare/
De-anonymizing is not fiction! I had considered writing a tool to do this years back but decided it could only be used for bad purposes and dropped it. I have seen early versions of tools that did this later however. They will use word patterns, sentence structure, typos, etc. to build a confidence factor of a person being the same across multiple text sets. I am sure the technology must be far more advanced now.

I always think about how the Unabomber's brother recognized his peculiar turns of phrase, like "eat your cake and have it too" instead of the other way around. (I never understood that phrase until I saw the Unabomber's arrangement, but that's a topic for another time).

I'm sure my brother could recognize my writing and references here and elsewhere, and there are probably a few people from other forums who could pick out the patterns and diction if not the explicit references.

I wonder if Tina from the article mentioned above is available for dating. She sounds like a fun gal. ;-)

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