When will the U.S. stop mass incarceration?

[MachineGhost]

The United States leads the world in the rate of incarcerating its own citizens. We imprison more of our own people than any other country on earth, including China which has four times our population, or in human history. And now, a new Pew report announces that we are keeping even nonviolent inmates behind bars for increasingly longer terms.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/03/opinion/b ... index.html

[Tortoise]

Thank the War on Drugs.

[Coffee]

The United States leads the world in the rate of incarcerating its own citizens. We imprison more of our own people than any other country on earth, including China which has four times our population, or in human history. And now, a new Pew report announces that we are keeping even nonviolent inmates behind bars for increasingly longer terms.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/03/opinion/b ... index.html

Weak logic, in my opinion.  Law enforcement is a profession here.  People get advanced degrees in it.  Whereas in many third world countries, all you need is a 5th grade education. 

And don't even get me started on lax reporting of crimes.  Does anyone here really think that 1 in 100 crimes get solved (or even reported) in Paraguay [or fill in the blank country] like they do, here?

Mix in a weak immigration policy, blend of cultures like nowhere else in the world and several other factors-- I'm surprised the incarceration rate isn't higher.

[Storm]

Weak logic, in my opinion.  Law enforcement is a profession here.  People get advanced degrees in it.  Whereas in many third world countries, all you need is a 5th grade education. 

And don't even get me started on lax reporting of crimes.  Does anyone here really think that 1 in 100 crimes get solved (or even reported) in Paraguay [or fill in the blank country] like they do, here?

Mix in a weak immigration policy, blend of cultures like nowhere else in the world and several other factors-- I'm surprised the incarceration rate isn't higher.

Is the fact that most in prison are non-violent criminals who have committed consensual crimes weak logic?  Is the fact that we have a prison-industrial complex along with unionized correctional workers who are very effective at lobbying to increase rates of incarceration?  3 strikes laws and other laws were lobbied for by the very industry and unions that profit from their existence.

[MediumTex]

Weak logic, in my opinion.  Law enforcement is a profession here.  People get advanced degrees in it.  Whereas in many third world countries, all you need is a 5th grade education. 

And don't even get me started on lax reporting of crimes.  Does anyone here really think that 1 in 100 crimes get solved (or even reported) in Paraguay [or fill in the blank country] like they do, here?

Mix in a weak immigration policy, blend of cultures like nowhere else in the world and several other factors-- I'm surprised the incarceration rate isn't higher.

Is the fact that most in prison are non-violent criminals who have committed consensual crimes weak logic?  Is the fact that we have a prison-industrial complex along with unionized correctional workers who are very effective at lobbying to increase rates of incarceration?  3 strikes laws and other laws were lobbied for by the very industry and unions that profit from their existence.

Our criminal justice system is basically a "catch and release" arrangement with many law enforcement professionals (police, judges, prison guards, probation officers, bail bondsmen, etc.) paid by the volume of work they do, rather than by the amount of justice they achieve.

Law enforcement in this country is about criminalizing as much behavior as possible, in the same way that Apple is about selling as many electronic gadgets as possible.

In the future I imagine a stremlined criminal justice process in which everyone is on camera 24 hours a day and everyone commits a couple of crimes a day, the fines for which are automatically deducted from your bank account.  For crimes that might involve incarceration, you will be able to "buy" time off of your sentence at a per diem rate which can also be automatically drafted from your bank account, which will basically translate into only poor people being in prison, which is mostly already the case, but in the future administering the whole system will be more efficient, impersonal and amoral.

[Coffee]

Almost by definition, you're always going to have more poor people in prison-- in any system.  Poor people have less education, less funds to buy top representation and live in areas where it's easier to get caught up with criminal elements.  Add to that youth culture embrace the hustler and gangster as folk heros to the point of modelling-- and it's no surprise there are more poor people in prison.  You can't blame that on our system.

Also-- I'm not sure how police, prison guards, probation officers and bail bondsmen have any say in how criminals are caught and released?

[smurff]

Also-- I'm not sure how police, prison guards, probation officers and bail bondsmen have any say in how criminals are caught and released?

Police managers often develop quotas for a variety of actions, including stop and frisk, traffic stops, even arrests. If you're a citizen in the wrong time at the wrong place (when there us a quota under way), and you appear to be an individual who can be easily harassed, too bad.

Once arrested there are points all along the route through the justice system, and a variety of players, from jail and prison guards to wardens and parole officers, who have a say in whether to get the D.A. involved, whether one is charged with a crime, how severe the charges will be, whether if convicted one will be put on probation or sentenced, whether ones behavior qualifies as "good" and eligible for any automatic reductions in sentence, whether to overlook parole violations (and keep the parolee from returning to the pokey), the works.

[Coffee]

Also-- I'm not sure how police, prison guards, probation officers and bail bondsmen have any say in how criminals are caught and released?

Police managers often develop quotas for a variety of actions, including stop and frisk, traffic stops, even arrests. If you're a citizen in the wrong time at the wrong place (when there us a quota under way), and you appear to be an individual who can be easily harassed, too bad.

Once arrested there are points all along the route through the justice system, and a variety of players, from jail and prison guards to wardens and parole officers, who have a say in whether to get the D.A. involved, whether one is charged with a crime, how severe the charges will be, whether if convicted one will be put on probation or sentenced, whether ones behavior qualifies as "good" and eligible for any automatic reductions in sentence, whether to overlook parole violations (and keep the parolee from returning to the pokey), the works.

Agreed. 

But there is no conspiracy via a "catch and release arrangement" between all of these players.

[MediumTex]

Also-- I'm not sure how police, prison guards, probation officers and bail bondsmen have any say in how criminals are caught and released?

Police managers often develop quotas for a variety of actions, including stop and frisk, traffic stops, even arrests. If you're a citizen in the wrong time at the wrong place (when there us a quota under way), and you appear to be an individual who can be easily harassed, too bad.

Once arrested there are points all along the route through the justice system, and a variety of players, from jail and prison guards to wardens and parole officers, who have a say in whether to get the D.A. involved, whether one is charged with a crime, how severe the charges will be, whether if convicted one will be put on probation or sentenced, whether ones behavior qualifies as "good" and eligible for any automatic reductions in sentence, whether to overlook parole violations (and keep the parolee from returning to the pokey), the works.

Agreed. 

But there is no conspiracy via a "catch and release arrangement" between all of these players.

It's what you might call a "self-organizing" conspiracy based upon the self-interest of all of the players involved.

The same sort of conspiracy is unfolding in the dental profession based upon the idea that people's teeth should be a few shades lighter.

[MachineGhost]

It's what you might call a "self-organizing" conspiracy based upon the self-interest of all of the players involved.

The same sort of conspiracy is unfolding in the dental profession based upon the idea that people's teeth should be a few shades lighter.

Like Congress, it sounds like another Tragedy of the Commons!

[Coffee]

Police managers often develop quotas for a variety of actions, including stop and frisk, traffic stops, even arrests. If you're a citizen in the wrong time at the wrong place (when there us a quota under way), and you appear to be an individual who can be easily harassed, too bad.

Once arrested there are points all along the route through the justice system, and a variety of players, from jail and prison guards to wardens and parole officers, who have a say in whether to get the D.A. involved, whether one is charged with a crime, how severe the charges will be, whether if convicted one will be put on probation or sentenced, whether ones behavior qualifies as "good" and eligible for any automatic reductions in sentence, whether to overlook parole violations (and keep the parolee from returning to the pokey), the works.

Agreed. 

But there is no conspiracy via a "catch and release arrangement" between all of these players.

It's what you might call a "self-organizing" conspiracy based upon the self-interest of all of the players involved.

The same sort of conspiracy is unfolding in the dental profession based upon the idea that people's teeth should be a few shades lighter.

Off topic: What do you think of amalgam fillings?  I'm considering getting mine removed and replaced with composite/resin fillings.  Can't figure out if the hub-bub about mercury in fillings is real or not, though.  Could just be another one of those things people on the fringe get worked up about?

[MediumTex]

Agreed. 

But there is no conspiracy via a "catch and release arrangement" between all of these players.

It's what you might call a "self-organizing" conspiracy based upon the self-interest of all of the players involved.

The same sort of conspiracy is unfolding in the dental profession based upon the idea that people's teeth should be a few shades lighter.

Off topic: What do you think of amalgam fillings?  I'm considering getting mine removed and replaced with composite/resin fillings.  Can't figure out if the hub-bub about mercury in fillings is real or not, though.  Could just be another one of those things people on the fringe get worked up about?

I think it is something people are worked up about.

[Storm]

Off topic: What do you think of amalgam fillings?  I'm considering getting mine removed and replaced with composite/resin fillings.  Can't figure out if the hub-bub about mercury in fillings is real or not, though.  Could just be another one of those things people on the fringe get worked up about?

I'm not a dentist, but logically I would imagine that any mercury put in your fillings 10-20 years ago has either already passed through your system and is unlikely to do you any harm.  On the other hand, removing fillings and redoing them always requires removing some bone from your teeth so that is likely to do some harm, also to your wallet.

[MachineGhost]

Off topic: What do you think of amalgam fillings?  I'm considering getting mine removed and replaced with composite/resin fillings.  Can't figure out if the hub-bub about mercury in fillings is real or not, though.  Could just be another one of those things people on the fringe get worked up about?

I replied to this in a more appropriate topic:

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ht ... 551#p37551