Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

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foglifter
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Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

My 401(k) recently has been blessed with addition of the first and only Vanguard index fund: Vanguard Balanced Index Signal (VBASX, ER 0.10%). Due to the reasons beyond my understanding I can't set up regular payroll contributions to this fund. The only way to invest in it through manual balance transfers within the account.

The fund is basically a mix of 60% TSM and 40% TBM - here's  a quote from the investment summary:
"The fund employs an indexing investment approach designed to track the performance of two benchmark indexes. With approximately 60% of assets, it seeks to track the investment performance of the MSCI US Broad Market Index, which represents 99.5% or more of the total market capitalization of all U.S. common stocks. The fund also seeks to track the investment performance of the Barclays Capital U.S. Aggregate Float Adjusted Index with 40% of assets."

The reason I'm interested in potentially using this fund is the existing stock and bond funds in my 401(k) are more expensive. Taking aside all the usual crappy expensive active funds, I'll just mention the following 2 funds that I currently use for my PP stock portion and a part of the bonds portion (EDV in my IRA covers the second part):

MMILX MassMutual Select Indexed Equity (ER 0.41%, tracks S&P 500)
NOBOX Northern Bond Index (ER 0.46%, tracks  Barclays Capital U.S. Aggregate Bond index)

As you see both funds' expense ratios are too high for an index fund. Now, given that VBASX's ER is only 0.10% I was thinking about using it rather than the above two funds. This would simplify the asset allocation and cut the costs. Also, the equity part in VBASX covers a broader market (TSM) compared to MMILX (S&P 500), which may benefit the performance.

What do you folks think? :)
Last edited by foglifter on Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

I have a few rambling thoughts, hope at least 1 of them helps:

I assume you have no "Brokerage Window" option where you could periodically buy good HBPP building block ETFs like VTI, EDV, SGOL, etc?

If not, I assume 30 yr Treasuries & gold are not available in your 401K.

You could consider 60% of your VBASX pie to be your stock holding, & the remainder 40% VBASX to be VP.

I would agree that VBASX is a less bad choice than some mix of MMILX & NOBOX, if you you are trying to a Boglehead type stock/bond asset alloc

If you are trying to do the PP, to fill out your stock allocation you could either just use the more expensive MMILX, or the cheaper VBASX as I described above, depending on personal preference.

The amount of time you plan to stay at your employer will matter.  afaict, there is a bias against "lifer"/long-time at 1 company employers.  If you change employers every ~5 years, you can roll the 401K to a Trad IRA each time, & the drawback of wack limited & expensive ER 401K fund choices is more manageable, imho.

A few other possible workaround ideas:

1. A CPA accountant poster here (forgot his name) mentioned that it is possible to use a specific type of Health Savings Account (HSA) as basically extra pseudo-Roth IRA space beyond the $5K annual Roth IRA space.  You can't touch it until age 65 for non-health spending, but you could put up to $3200 annually in this HSA, then at age 65 withdraw it for any spending purpose.  I don't fully understand this HSA workaround idea, so do your research before trying it.

2. go cashless 3X33% with stock, 30 yr Treas, gold.

3. in addition to #2, using EDV for 30 yr Treas, you can hold 2/3 the amount of EDV as 30 yr Treas, as EDV has 3/2 the volatility of 30 yr Treas.  This makes this flavor the cashless PP 25% EDV, 37.5% stock, 37.5% gold.  You can fill out more of your 401K with stock.  Also, if you have to invest taxable, stock & gold are not as bad as 30 yr Trasuries to invest taxable, especially if you have enough gold in tax-advantaged for reblancing purposes (where your taxable gold is your "deep gold" you don't plan on needing to sell/reblance with, & your tax-advantaged paper gold is enough for rebalancing purposes).
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

Thanks for your thoughts, cabronjames.

Furst if all, I'm doing a full-blown PP using several IRAs and my 401(k). You guessed right: no gold or LTTs available. The brokerage window option in 401(k) is available, but it comes with $100 annual maintenance fee, which makes the use of brokerage window sensible only when the account balance is close to 100K (i.e. to break even thanks to the lower expenses of funds bought in the brokerage account).

So I think I can buy VBASX instead of paying the brokerage window fee. Also, in the brokerage account Vanguard funds require buy/sale transaction fee, so I would be limited to Fidelity funds.
Last edited by foglifter on Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by Pointedstick »

I would consider using the brokerage option, despite the ridiculous fee, especially if it gives you the option of using commission-free ETFs or mutual funds. It's nice to have a whole PP in a single tax-sheltered account, because it dramatically simplifies rebalancing. If (for example) you have your gold in a Roth IRA, bonds in a rollover IRA, and stocks and cash in a 401k, imagine what kind of nightmare you'll go through when you hit a rebalance band and need to transfer cash between those accounts.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

Pointedstick wrote: I would consider using the brokerage option, despite the ridiculous fee, especially if it gives you the option of using commission-free ETFs or mutual funds. It's nice to have a whole PP in a single tax-sheltered account, because it dramatically simplifies rebalancing. If (for example) you have your gold in a Roth IRA, bonds in a rollover IRA, and stocks and cash in a 401k, imagine what kind of nightmare you'll go through when you hit a rebalance band and need to transfer cash between those accounts.
The brokerage window is at a different provider, so technically it still would be 2 separate accounts (with all the hassles of selling funds first, then moving to the brokerage account etc.). No zero-commission ETFs offered, so the only commission-free options would be no-transaction-fee mutual funds, which in terms of index funds means Fidelity. Also, only 50% of the account balance can be transferred into the brokerage account, which means  a half of the balance should remain in the core 401(k) account. Before VBASX became available I was planning to start using the brokerage window to invest in FSTMX (equities) and FLBIX (LTTs) in a year or two. But now I think I can have an immediate benefit of investing in VBASX.

I agree with you that having PP in one account would be nice. But I don't have any issues with having my PP scattered over several accounts. My PP spreadsheet gives my complete picture of the portfolio. Well, maybe it's just me, for some people a simple one-account portfolio works better.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

what specifically do you consider the bond portion of the VBSAX as?  all VP, or partially PP.

iirc the generic US bond index (Barclays Capital U.S. Aggregate Float Adjusted Index) has significant non-US Treasury issuers' bonds, like Fannie Mae, Morgan Stanley, Tennessee Valley Authority, etc.

Even the US Treasury portion, will have some portion of bonds that are not of proper duration on the cash (0<duration<~3 yr) or long bond (~20yr<duration<30yr).

I suppose it could be possible to use the notion Clive has explained, of combining the durations into 1 Treasury bond bucket, via combining the USTs in your VBSAX with the EDV in your IRA in a proper mix, to approximate the Clive combined UST asset, & considering the non-UST portion of VBSAX as VP?  I haven't thought about this idea much, since I use a cash-less PP variant (stock, EDV for 30 yr Treas asset, gold)
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

cabronjames wrote: what specifically do you consider the bond portion of the VBSAX as?  all VP, or partially PP.
Well, for simplicity I would just consider it all PP.
cabronjames wrote: iirc the generic US bond index (Barclays Capital U.S. Aggregate Float Adjusted Index) has significant non-US Treasury issuers' bonds, like Fannie Mae, Morgan Stanley, Tennessee Valley Authority, etc.

Even the US Treasury portion, will have some portion of bonds that are not of proper duration on the cash (0<duration<~3 yr) or long bond (~20yr<duration<30yr).

I suppose it could be possible to use the notion Clive has explained, of combining the durations into 1 Treasury bond bucket, via combining the USTs in your VBSAX with the EDV in your IRA in a proper mix, to approximate the Clive combined UST asset, & considering the non-UST portion of VBSAX as VP?  I haven't thought about this idea much, since I use a cash-less PP variant (stock, EDV for 30 yr Treas asset, gold)
This sounds like a good idea. BTW, can you elaborate more on your decision to go with "cashless" 3x33% PP? Perhaps its just mental accounting: you must be considering your cash as a separate asset and exclude it from your PP...
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

I've updated the ER numbers in my original post - it turned out ER for NOBOX is 0.46. not 0.16(!).
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

foglifter wrote: This sounds like a good idea. BTW, can you elaborate more on your decision to go with "cashless" 3x33% PP?
foglifter, interesting question, let me try a quick unpolished take:

1 imho the 4X25 orthodox HBPP offers better protection against a tight money recession, whereas cashless 3X33 offers better protection against a major currency devaluation wrt other fiat currencies, like Iceland 2008, Argentina 2001?, etc.  The USD has been the most used reserve currency now & afaict the history of the PP (since ~1973, when the USD became a fiat currency without connection to gold), & being a reserve currency makes a major currency devaluation much more unlikely, & orthodox HBPP theory says gold should protect you in that situation, but personally (I am unorthodox/off the HBPP reservation somewhat here) I prefer major currency devaluation protection vs tight money recession protection.

2 I took Clive's historical PP results spreadsheet that has US, UK, Japan local currency returns & CPI inflation data for each stock, 30 yr bond, cash, gold.  I looked at the real (CPI inflation adjusted) returns at each decade, 1980-89, 1990-99, 2000-9.  Both the 4X25 & 3X33 gave similar results, of usually 4-5% real return in each nation/decade (iirc Japan 1990s had ~0.5% real return).  The 3X33 tended to give a slightly higher (something much under 1% incremental real return) than the 4X25.  otoh, the 4X25 was similarly slightly better at worst 1 yr drawdown, with a year in Japan being iirc -15% real with the 4X25 vs -20% real for 3X33.  Again, let me stress I'm going off of memory & don't have time right now to find/open this Clive ssheet, so take these as ballpark figures that show the trend.  In fact, I would encourage you or anyone to spend maybe at least 1 hr playing with such a spreadsheet himself; for me it increased my confidence in the all-economic condition durability of the PP asset allocation approach.

3 The sense I get from the historical record is that tight money recession (the economic situation that cash "is insurance for" in the 4X25) is a brief experience of ~1-3 years.  iirc in the US this was in ~1982 with Fed Chair Paul Volker's policies to reduce inflation.  The sense I get was that for an accumulator/worker (eg, not a retired guy), the aforementioned general slightly higher return of 3X33% would more than compensate for the brief relative excess loss of 3X33% vs 4X25% during the tight money recession period.

4 The 3X33% is slightly more efficient to invest in taxable, since you are attempting shield with tax-advantaged (401k/IRA/etc) 33% of your pie (bonds), vs 4X25's 50% of your pie (cash & bonds).  stock & gold are less cumbersome to invest in taxable (especially if you have enough gold in tax-adv for rebalancing purposes; obviously gold never pays a dividend that would be useful to shield in a tax-adv like bonds/cash do, & stock does, but typically less than bond/cash).  Depending on the portion of your pie that is taxable, this could extend the slightly higher real return of 3X33% mentioned in #2 into an again slightly higher after-tax real return.
foglifter wrote: Perhaps its just mental accounting: you must be considering your cash as a separate asset and exclude it from your PP...
Yes, I consider emergency fund cash as distinct from my investment/HBPP account.  But I consider this "mental accounting" to be a "personal preference" issue, either way is valid afaict.

hope that helps
cabronjames

Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

foglifter wrote:Furst if all, I'm doing a full-blown PP using several IRAs and my 401(k).
1 can I assume that you are managing the combination or your several IRAs, & your 401K, as 1 PP pie?  imho this is a good approach, since it is costly (expense ratio/commissions/etc) &/or not feasible (eg a 401k with no brokerage window having no mutual fund for the gold or 30 yr Treas asset classes) to try reproduce an PP in each investment account

2 can I assume that all your IRAs, are accounts that you direct, & that you have decent choices for mutual funds/ETFs in each of the 4 HBPP asset classes?  I personally know this to be true at Vanguard Brokerage Services, & my impression from others here is that this is also true at some other major low-cost brokers like Fidelity, Schwab, etc.

3 can I assume you do not have taxable accounts? If you do have taxable accounts, what approximate portion of the total pie (in percentage, do not tell me dollar figures/that's private info) is taxable

4 what portion of the total pie is each of
4a your 401k
4b your set of IRAs
4c your taxable (if any)
--

IF your 401k portion is less than 35% (eg 1.4X of the target stock allocation of a 4X25 HBPP) of your total PP pie, here's a quick solution, which I'd probably do if I was in your situation.

1 Use your 401k exclusively to accumulate stock.  Make your entire 401k account be MMILX S&P500 fund (yeah I know wack 0.41%er, we gotta make "401k lemonade" here).  Make your new paycheck contributions also be in MMILX

2 In your IRAs, if relevant, sell the relevant amount of existing stock fund(s) & buy other non-stock PP assets like EDV, GTU/SGOL, etc.

3 Check your account periodically ("period" = quarterly, or monthly/yearly, your personal preference) to see when the 401k hits 35% of your total PP pie.  When your 401K does hit 35% of your total PP pie, THEN open the Brokerage window option, which you mentioned can only be half of your total 401K subpie.  Transfer the ~17.5% to the brokerage window & buy a non-stock asset, like EDV for bond, SGOL for gold, or SHY for cash.  Personally, I'd probably use the Brokerage window to accumulate EDV.  Your commissions would be low since it might be something like once per 1-2 years you would be buying more EDV, or even rarer, selling existing Brokerage EDV for rebalancing.  Continue to have all your new 401k contribs going into the MMILX stock fund, & continue to check your account periodically.

optional #4: Since VBSAX apparently is merely a mix of 60% of the US broad (~3000 companies vs S&P500's 500 companies) stock index VTSSX(mutual fund)/VTI(brother ETF version of same Vanguard fund/asset), & 40% of the US Bond Index VBTSX/BND, lobby HR/whomever to also directly offer VTSSX 0.06%er, or Vanguard's S&P500 VIFSX 0.05%er, either of which are obviously superior to the wack MMILX 0.41%er
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

cabronjames wrote:
2 can I assume that all your IRAs, are accounts that you direct, & that you have decent choices for mutual funds/ETFs in each of the 4 HBPP asset classes?  I personally know this to be true at Vanguard Brokerage Services, & my impression from others here is that this is also true at some other major low-cost brokers like Fidelity, Schwab, etc.
My IRAs and a taxable account are at Fidelity, and I can buy pretty much anything including 31 commission-free iShares ETFs (unfortunately IAU and TLT are excluded). Stock/ETF transaction fee at Fidelity is $7.95.
cabronjames wrote: 3 can I assume you do not have taxable accounts? If you do have taxable accounts, what approximate portion of the total pie (in percentage, do not tell me dollar figures/that's private info) is taxable
Actually right now I'm using my taxable solely for VP. I am planning to buy some gold in a taxable in order to free more space for bonds in the IRAs.

cabronjames wrote: 4 what portion of the total pie is each of
4a your 401k  - 45%
4b your set of IRAs - 55%
cabronjames wrote: Personally, I'd probably use the Brokerage window to accumulate EDV.  Your commissions would be low since it might be something like once per 1-2 years you would be buying more EDV, or even rarer, selling existing Brokerage EDV for rebalancing.  
The brokerage window is at SSgA and the commissions are quite high: $25 for stocks/ETFs, $34 for funds. Paying $100 annual fee + $25 EDV purchase fee + EDV itself comes with expense ratio... I actually recently moved part of my EDV to 30-year bonds at my Fidelity IRA, planning to completely move the rest later. Fidelity imposes no fees for Treasury bond purchases. So this means 0 expense.
cabronjames wrote: lobby HR/whomever to also directly offer VTSSX 0.06%er, or Vanguard's S&P500 VIFSX 0.05%er, either of which are obviously superior to the wack MMILX 0.41%er
Not gonna work... we're a small company, our 401(k) and payroll is handled by ADP. A few years ago I tried this with another benefits provider to no avail.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by Xan »

Just because it didn't work with somebody else before doesn't mean it won't work with ADP.  I'd give that a try.  Doesn't seem like much to lose.
cabronjames

Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

cabronjames wrote: lobby HR/whomever to also directly offer VTSSX 0.06%er, or Vanguard's S&P500 VIFSX 0.05%er, either of which are obviously superior to the wack MMILX 0.41%er
foglifter wrote: Not gonna work... we're a small company, our 401(k) and payroll is handled by ADP. A few years ago I tried this with another benefits provider to no avail.
Interesting.  Is ADP's 401k list to its small biz customers like the Model T, 1 non-customizable product, take it or leave it?

Or does each small biz customer select funds from a larger ADP list?

iirc MT mentioned he is a lawyer whose work relates to retirement accounts, perhaps he has some insight on this?

foglifter, sorry for this aside, I get your point that you are likely "stuck" with the lame expensive S&P500 fund MMILX.  Best case sceanrio, if there was a change to add a better choice like VIFSX, the internal business bureaucracy would prolly take time (1+ yr) for this to actually occur.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

fyi, apparently the US Bond Index (Barclays Capital U.S. Aggregate Float Adjusted Index)) tracked by VBTSX/BND, which apparently 1 of the 2 component funds mixed by VBSAX

is only 38.5% US Treasuries

https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/iip ... undId=0928
click "Portfolio"

Issuer BND
Treasury 38.5%
Government Mortgage-Backed 27.2%
Industrial 11.8%
Finance 7.4%
Foreign 5.6%
Agency 4.6%
Utilities 2.3%
Commercial Mortgage-Backed 2.2%
Asset-Backed 0.2%
Other 0.2%

Total 100.0%
--

As such, imho I wouldn't use it for PP construction purposes given your specific situation of  45% 401K space / 55% IRAs space
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

cabronjames wrote: 4 what portion of the total pie is each of
foglifter wrote: 4a your 401k  - 45%
4b your set of IRAs - 55%
Here's a simple plan to implement 4X25 HBPP, considering your 45% 401k & 55% Fidelity IRAs as 1 PP pie:

1 Since you indicated you like to buy individual USTreasuries at Fidelity & plan to eventually convert your EDV into individual 30 yr US T-Bond(s), & the 55% portion of your Fidelity IRAs does allow for it, take care of your entire bonds & cash within your Fidelity IRAs.

2 From http://fixedincome.fidelity.com/fi/FISe ... chTreasury , it seems that the longest 30 yr UST available matures in 2042-May, UNITED STATES TREAS BDS 3.00000% 05/15/2042
Put 25% of PP Pie in this bond.

3 Similarly to implement your Cash asset, take 25% of your pie to buy 1 or a mix of T-Bills (mature in under 1 yr) or T-Notes.  Perhaps you can do a "bond ladder", put 12.5% of your pie in a T-Note maturing in 2013-June, & similarly 12.5% pie in a T-Note maturing in 2014-June.  I've never bought individual USTs.  If I were to do so, I'd read/ask questions on the Cash section of this message board.  Also an aside, I Bonds from the US Savings Bond program of the UST, in a US Treasury Direct account, are a superior cash asset than say US T-Notes, in yield (2-3% currently for I Bond, it adjusts with the CPI inflation rate & you don't lose nominal $, vs 0.26% adjusting with market you CAN lose some nominal $ for 2 yr US T-Note per Google Finance) & some other features (again you can read up on them in the Cash section of tis board).  So before investing in Taxable accounts, I'd suggest buying I Bonds ($10K max per year, + extra $5K as Fed tax refund) & partially over time reducing the amount of your US T-Notes in your Fidelity IRAs.  Note that we'll come back to your Fidelity IRAs to finish the remaining 5% of pie to buy gold &/or stock later.

4 In your 401K, go ahead & open that SSgA Brokerage Window.  Given that half (22.5% pie) of 401k account (45% pie) limit you mentioned, buy whichever 1 gold ETF you prefer.  For example, SGOL 0.39%er.

5 Put the remaining 22.5% of your 401k in that S&P500 fund MMILX 0.41%er.  Direct that 100% of new payroll contribs be directed into MMILX.

6 Go back to Fidelity IRAs, finish the 5% pie remaining to buy gold &/or stock.  Personally, given the buy/sell commission, I would use the 5% to buy stock, using IVV, which is on S&P500 ETF on that Fidelity iShares no comission list, which would make your PP pie be 27.5% stock, 22.5% gold.  As your new pay contribs are adding to this 27.5% stock, you will sometime (6 months? 3 yrs?) hit the 35% stock, at which point you can again sell some 401k MMILX stock to buy more SSgA/401K SGOL gold .  Alternatively, you could take the remaining 5%, & buy 2.5% SGOL, 2.5% IVV.

To summarize, the portfolio is then:

stock 27.5%
22.5% MMILX 0.41%er in 401K
5% IVV 0.09%er in Fidelity IRA

bond 25%
25% UST-Bond May-2042 0%er in Fidelity IRA

gold 22.5%
22.5% SGOL 0.39% + $100 annual fee + $25 commission in SSgA Brokerage 401k.  The net expense ratio (incl the comission) given $10K in SGOL would be
(($100 annual fee + $25 comission) / $10K) + 0.39% SGOL's er = 1.64%
similarly if $50K in SGOL, net er = 0.64%

cash 25%
25% across 1 or more UST-Notes or UST-Bills 0%er in Fidelity IRA

assuming "worst case" $10K in SSgA 401K with resultant 1.64%er, let's calculate the portfolio ER = 0.47%
= (22.5% * 0.41%) + (5% * 0.09%) + (22.5% * 1.64%)

The 0%er on the Fidelity USTs really helps lower the portfolio ER.

On 1 hand 0.47%er seems poor, but you are actually getting the HBPP asset allocation you desire.  As opposed as, for instance, VBSAX 0.10%er, which has much garbage non-UST bonds like Morgan Stanley/Fannie Mae.  Also, supposedly many portfolio ERs are 1%+ for a garbage asset allocation, so 0.47%er for a great HBPP asset alloc is not bad.

Let me know what you think.  Hope this helps.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

cabronjames, wow, this is awesome. I will certainly spend some time having a second look at my portfolio in light of your input. Thank you very much.  :)

I didn't want to turn it into a full-blown request for help with setting up PP from scratch, sorry if it sounded like that... I really wanted to limit my question to the potential use of VBASX as a replacement to expensive stock and bond funds in my 401(k). I  feel almost ashamed I'm taking too much of your time.

I think most of the regulars on this forum are quite advanced in terms of PP setup/maintenance and it's quite rare that you'd see questions like the one I posted. This might lead to some sort of "hunger" for questions from the newbies - especially because we all know that PP's simplicity is almost incomprehensible for first-time readers (or for hard-core Bogleheads  ;D). I certainly feel this way sometimes. On some days I get to the forum and notice that some sections, like stocks for example, haven't had new threads for a few days... aside from the fact that the forum is still young I believe another important reason is well-established clarity of the question about stocks. It's all well defined in the FAQs (kudos to craigr).
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

cabronjames wrote:
cabronjames wrote: lobby HR/whomever to also directly offer VTSSX 0.06%er, or Vanguard's S&P500 VIFSX 0.05%er, either of which are obviously superior to the wack MMILX 0.41%er
foglifter wrote: Not gonna work... we're a small company, our 401(k) and payroll is handled by ADP. A few years ago I tried this with another benefits provider to no avail.
Interesting.  Is ADP's 401k list to its small biz customers like the Model T, 1 non-customizable product, take it or leave it?

Or does each small biz customer select funds from a larger ADP list?
ADP itself can offer different retirement plan providers to the employers. I believe my employer chose the cheapest setup, which includes MassMutual as a provider of 401(k). Reasonable medical insurance costs were probably the highest priority during the negotiations, perhaps that's why we got what we got.

No, the employer can't choose, it's a fixed list maintained by MassMutual. They did some changes - for example they dropped RetireSmart all-in-one funds - I think because they didn't attract much interest to these crappy expensive "lifecycle" funds.

Also, I should've mentioned that my employer doesn't match contributions... so it's a big question whether I need to contribute maximum. Or contribute at all. I can use my taxable account and I will pay LT capital gain tax if I sell assets - not the income tax in case of 401(k). I know, I know, the tax-free growth and all that... but TSM and gold would do just fine in terms of tax efficiency in a taxable account.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

imho for taxable investing in the context of a 4X25 HBPP, afaict you'd want to prioritize
1 Cash - I Bonds Savings Bonds
2 Gold - 1 oz sovereign coins like American Eagle, if you are comfortable owning physical gold (bank safe deposit box, hide it in your home, etc)
3 Stock (say at Fidelity Taxable). stock dividends are pretty low.  You may not need to touch this much for rebalancing, since you can sell your tax adv/401k/Fidelity IRA stock first.  Even if you do need to sell taxable stock, you can usually get the long term cap gains rate (15% iirc)
cabronjames

Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

foglifter wrote: cabronjames, wow, this is awesome. I will certainly spend some time having a second look at my portfolio in light of your input. Thank you very much.  :)
Glad it helped, foglifter.  I learned a lot from others here, so I like to help similarly when I can.

Also, tbh, this kind of analysis helps me as well, in improving my nuts & bolts PP implementation knowledge.  Each specific situation may force me to consider details that I hadn't considered previously, but that there's a decent chance I might face myself in the future.  For instance, the sense I get is that the particular breakdown of current job 401k/IRA/taxable has a big impact on PP implementation, & this breakdown can often radically change over time for most people, myself included.  In other words, thank you as well!
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

cabronjames wrote: imho for taxable investing in the context of a 4X25 HBPP, afaict you'd want to prioritize
1 Cash - I Bonds Savings Bonds
2 Gold - 1 oz sovereign coins like American Eagle, if you are comfortable owning physical gold (bank safe deposit box, hide it in your home, etc)
3 Stock (say at Fidelity Taxable). stock dividends are pretty low.  You may not need to touch this much for rebalancing, since you can sell your tax adv/401k/Fidelity IRA stock first.  Even if you do need to sell taxable stock, you can usually get the long term cap gains rate (15% iirc)
BTW, what do you think about my remark regarding my "no-match" 401(k)? I do maximize my Roth IRA and I wonder if saving in the taxable (yes, at Fidelity - plenty of investment choices!) would make more sense. With no employer match I don't leave money on the table.
"Let every man divide his money into three parts, and invest a third in land, a third in business, and a third let him keep in reserve."
- Talmud
cabronjames

Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

foglifter, somehow I missed your earlier comment.

I would first re-encourage you to research that $3200 HSA as pseudo-Roth IRA idea.  If that is indeed a valid tactic, you could possibly invest dollar #5001 up to #8200 at Fidelity in that HSA-type account, & get the both of the benefit of the Fidelity fund choices you like as well as the tax-adv benefit.

Answering your question:
You mentioned that you max your Fidelity Roth IRA ($5K limit each year).  You wanted to know that for #5001st dollar invested each yr, are you better off investing Fidelity taxable vs 401k for new contributions.  (Note: or #8201st dollar ea yr if that HSA as pseudo Roth IRA is valid tactic).

Despite the bogus Brokerage Window fee & high expense ratio of the 401K, my sense it's still great to use as much of this as possible.  Your $17K yearly 401k space is similar to the $5K Roth IRA space, in that it's perishable like an airline ticket or fruit.  Also, you are in the situation now where you can implement the PP, thanks to your Brokerage Window.

I could see if you made an exception as a personal preference to have enough of your gold (the portion of your total gold that is say physical/Perth-type/paper-ETF gold would be your personal preference, although a Forumer noted that perhaps at least 30% ETF gold in an IRA is good for rebalancing purposes) be a "safer gold holding" than say SGOL in your SSgA Brokerage Window 401k.  For example
1 physical 1 oz sovereign coin like American Eagle, that you personally store/hide, or place in your credit union safety deposit box, etc
2 perhaps a ex-US "craigr approved" gold storage option like the Perth Mint (Western Australian gov institution) account (iirc reading here this has a $50K min).

For "paper gold" with an ETF like SGOL or a closed-end fund like GTU (only buy at a discount or a small premium to NAV), I prefer your SSgA Brokerage Window 401K as superior to the same SGOL asset in Fidelity taxable.  My sense is the extra SSgA Brokerage Window fee is worth the ability to grow your tax-adv space.  Keep in mind that SSgA fee ($100 acct fee + $25 commission fee) is a "fixed cost", & does not grow with the amount of SGOL you have, so the "SSgA fee-included expense ratio" actually gets more reasonable the larger your SSgA holding gets.

For stock, I feel
MMILX 0.41%er in 401K
>
IVV 0.09%er Fidelity taxable
my sense is that the 0.32% "savings" of IVV is nowhere close as valuable as being able to expand your tax-adv space with the 401K MMILX

I would even say that, for your $5001st & following investment dollar
401k stock/gold > Treasury Direct I Bonds (Cash) > Fidelity taxable stock/gold

For whatever reason, if you can't stomach putting new contribs in your 401K, I'd encourage you to open a Treasury Direct agressively buy I-Bonds with your $5001st & higher annual investment dollar.  Under this method, your I-Bonds would slowly replace your need to hold Cash in your Fidelity Roth IRA.  As this occurs, you can sell part of your US T-Note (or wait until a UST-Note matures - presumably you would have a T-Note maturing each year if you did a 1-3 yr T-Note ladder), & buy gold, or 30 yr UST-Bond.  It's possible that you could eventually replace your Cash holding with I-Bonds, which might eventually allow you to buy enough gold such that you would no longer need the 401K SSgA Brokerage Window option anymore.  Also recall that I Bonds are superior to US T-Notes in multiple ways: higher yield, convenience (need to reinvest a maturiting T-Note in your Fidelity, I Bonds don't have this issue), etc.

So to restate, the only way I feel you should prioritize taxable over 401k, is for "safer gold" holding choices.  Definitely in your situation I don't see how Fidelity taxable for stock or gold would ever be superior to 401k stock or gold.  IF someone could only implement the PP AA via investing in taxable due to not having a Brokerage Window and a 401K much larger than their Roth IRA, investing Fidelity Taxable before 401K could make sense, but I don't see this situation happening to you given your Brokerage Window.  Finally, if you reject the idea of investing new 401K contribs, I'd suggest to prioritize investing in I-Bonds for Cash before investing Fidelity taxable for stock/gold.

Hope that helps
Last edited by cabronjames on Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by cabronjames »

foglifter,

I created a topic to learn more about the aforementioned HSA tactic.  I'd encourage you to read it, & add any questions/comments there that I missed/didn't consider

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/in ... topic=2749
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Re: Vanguard Balanced Index for PP

Post by foglifter »

cabronjames wrote: I would first re-encourage you to research that $3200 HSA as pseudo-Roth IRA idea.  If that is indeed a valid tactic, you could possibly invest dollar #5001 up to #8200 at Fidelity in that HSA-type account, & get the both of the benefit of the Fidelity fund choices you like as well as the tax-adv benefit.
I am happily maxing out my HSA for the whole 6K a year as I have a family HDHP. Currently it sits at Adirondack FDIC-insured account earning 3%APY (used to be 5% a year ago) - I consider its as a "deep cash" portion of my PP cash bucket. I am considering opening another HSA at HSABank so I can invest in commission-free ETFs and therefore use the HSA funds for any of the other 3 PP buckets.
"Let every man divide his money into three parts, and invest a third in land, a third in business, and a third let him keep in reserve."
- Talmud
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