What If Saturated Fats Are Essential?

[Gumby]

I did try a self-experment with unrefined Omega-6.

MG... I'll bite. How do these self-experiments work exactly? I'm picturing a laboratory with smoking beakers and lots of test tubes as you conduct experiments on yourself.

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In all seriousness... I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that our species evolved — quite well, mind you — eating high ratios of saturated fats (though, perhaps, not large quantities of total calories) only to find out that we were doing it wrong over the course of human history. And when we finally go through the trouble of reducing our saturated fat intake, our portions and calories increase along with obesity and heart disease. Something's not adding up.

[FarmerD]

Very likely yes.  There have been several studies correlating low caloric intakes and low body weight (below what we consider to be normal for height) to increased longevity.  Of course, low body weight could be due to other factors than low caloric intake.

One big difference between how people ate then and how we eat now, is that there were periods when food was scarce.  This may be a key element to staying healthy.  A great example of this is the Navajo, who have extremely high rates (around 80%) of obesity and type 2 diabetes currently, which was of course not the case 100 years ago.  Their traditional diet was dictated by desert ecology, where rains are scarce and there were long periods in between with little food.  Another example is increased hypertension risk among African-Americans descended from slaves.  This same increased risk of hypertension is not present in African Americans from the same areas of Africa, but who immigrated more recently and eat a similar diet.  It's been proposed that the ocean journey in slave ships, where many died due to lack of water and food, selected for those who could retain salt and water.  That same talent with today's overabundance of food is now maladaptive.

Do your own reading on this, but it is possible that humans were designed for feast/famine cycles, and not for constant feasts.

I've read some intriguing studies that looked at periodic fasting and it's effects on the human body.  Some studies that compared Muslums before and after Ramadan showed greater insulin sensitivity and increased HDL.  Not sure this is mainly because of weight loss.  Other religous groups that practice periodic fasting show the same effects.  In a way it makes sense to me since, as you pointed out, humans had to cope in a world that alternated between periods of food abundance and food scarcity.

Dr Davis on the HeartScan Blog believes humans were not meant to graze, i.e. eating 3 meals per day plus snacks.  Much, perhaps most of the time, our ancient ancestors ate once per day which means 24 hour fasts were common.  A lot of the primal diet blogs talk about skipping food for one day a week and eating 1-2 meals per days on non fasting days.  I experimented on myself with this regimen and found insulin sensitivity does increase.  I've thought about getting an HDl meter to see if there is an effect there as well.   

[MachineGhost]

In all seriousness... I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that our species evolved — quite well, mind you — eating high ratios of saturated fats (though, perhaps, not large quantities of total calories) only to find out that we were doing it wrong over the course of human history. And when we finally go through the trouble of reducing our saturated fat intake, our portions and calories increase along with obesity and heart disease. Something's not adding up.

Maybe the below abstract will bring some clarity, which is what I personally use as a foundational model. 

PMID: 16441938
Awareness of the ancestral human diet might advance traditional nutrition science. The human genome has hardly changed since the emergence of behaviourally-modern humans in East Africa 100-50 x 10(3) years ago; genetically, man remains adapted for the foods consumed then. The best available estimates suggest that those ancestors obtained about 35% of their dietary energy from fats, 35% from carbohydrates and 30% from protein. Saturated fats contributed approximately 7.5% total energy and harmful trans-fatty acids contributed negligible amounts. Polyunsaturated fat intake was high, with n-6:n-3 approaching 2:1 (v. 10:1 today). Cholesterol consumption was substantial, perhaps 480 mg/d. Carbohydrate came from uncultivated fruits and vegetables, approximately 50% energy intake as compared with the present level of 16% energy intake for Americans. High fruit and vegetable intake and minimal grain and dairy consumption made ancestral diets base-yielding, unlike today's acid-producing pattern. Honey comprised 2-3% energy intake as compared with the 15% added sugars contribute currently. Fibre consumption was high, perhaps 100 g/d, but phytate content was minimal. Vitamin, mineral and (probably) phytochemical intake was typically 1.5 to eight times that of today except for that of Na, generally <1000 mg/d, i.e. much less than that of K. The field of nutrition science suffers from the absence of a unifying hypothesis on which to build a dietary strategy for prevention; there is no Kuhnian paradigm, which some researchers believe to be a prerequisite for progress in any scientific discipline. An understanding of human evolutionary experience and its relevance to contemporary nutritional requirements may address this critical deficiency.

A caveat I feel the need to add is I believe this diet may not be appropriate for anyone under 25.  While there is compelling evidence that the punctuated-equilibrium trigger for modern human brain development was a result of sudden Omega-3 ingestion by foraging for shellfish in African fresh-water lakes, there is no doubt the modern human brain takes up a substantial portion of caloric energy.  The IOM puts the daily requirement at 110 grams of carbohydates just for the brain alone to function.  I think ketosis is just too extreme and nutritionally-deprived to justify maintaining for non-disease states.  I'm not suggesting everyone under 25 eat pure sugar around the clock, but there is certainly a huge need for carbohydrates for growth and lets face it, its about the only window of nirvana we've all have before we have to start restricting food intake for any numerous number of reasons, so we might as well let them live it up while they can (certainly not referring to obese children here).

MG

[Gumby]

Some simple observations from the historic record. Here's an excellent account of what Colonial New Englanders ate and how they ate it:

What did "average" New England colonists eat during a typical day?
"Most New Englanders had a simple diet, their soil and climates allowing limited varieties of fruits and vegetables. In 1728 the Boston News Letter estimates the food needs of a middle-class 'genteel' family. Breakfast was bread and milk. Dinner consisted of pudding, followed by bread, meat, roots, pickles, vinegar, salt and cheese. Supper was the same as breakfast. Each famly also needed raisins, currants, suet, flour, eggs, cranberries, apples, and, where there were children, food for 'intermeal eatings.' Small beer was the beverage, and molasses for brewing and flavoring was needed. Butter, spices, sugar, and sweetmeats were luxuries, as were coffee, tea, chocolate, and alcoholic beverages other than beer."
---A History of Food and Drink in America, Richard J. Hooker [Bobbs-Merrill Company:Indianapolis IN] 1981(p. 67)

"English settlers in the seventeenth century ate three meals a day, as they had in England...For most people, breakfast consisted of bread, cornmeal mush and milk, or bread and milk together, and tea. Even the gentry might eat modestly in the morning, although they could afford meat or fish...Dinner, as elsewhere in the colonies, was a midday, through the wealthy were like to do as their peers in England did, and have it midafternoon...new England's gentry had a great variety of food on the table...An everyday meal might feature only one or two meats with a pudding, tarts, and vegetables...The different betweeen the more prosperous households and more modest ones might be in the quality and quantity of the meat served...Supper was a smaller meal, often similar to breakfast: bread, cheese, mush or hasty pudding, or warmed-over meat from the noon meal. Supper among the gentry was also a sociable meal, and might have warm food, meat or shellfish, such as oysters, in season."
---Food in Colonial and Federal America, Sandra L. Oliver [Greenwood Press:Westport CT] 2005(p. 157)
[NOTE: These books provide excellent descriptions of "average" meals by heritage (Germans, Dutch, Swedes), location (town vs country) and region. The scope and variety of these meals merits further examination.]

Basic overview of representative colonial meals:

"Breakfast. The Colonial American breakfast was far from the juice, eggs and bacon of today. The stoic early settlers rose early and went straight to the chores that demanded their attention. In frontier outposts and on farms, families drank cider or beer and gulped down a bowl of porridge that had been cooking slowly all night over the embers...In the towns, the usual mug of alcoholic beverage consumed upon rising was followed by cornmeal mush and molasses with more cider or beer. By the nineteenth century, breakfast was served as late a 9 or 10 o'clock. Here might be found coffee, tea or chocolate, wafers, muffins, toasts, and a butter dish and knife...The southern poor ate cold turkey washed down with ever-present cider. The size of breakfasts grew in direct proportion to growth of wealth. Breads, cold meats and, especially in the Northeast, fruit pies and pasties joined the breakfast menus. Families in the Middle Colonies added special items such as scrapple (cornmeal and headcheese) and dutch sweetcakes wich were fried in deep fat. It was among the Southern planters that breakfast became a leisurely and delightful meal, though it was not served until early chores were attended to and orders for the day given...Breads were eaten at all times of the day but particularly at breakfast."
---A Cooking Legacy, Virginia T. Elverson and Mary Ann McLanahan [Walker & Company:New York] 1975 (p. 14)

"Dinner. Early afternoon was the appointed hour for dinner in Colonial America. Throughout the seventeenth century and well into the eighteenth century it was served in the "hall" or "common room." ..While dinner among the affluent merchants in the North took place shortly after noon, the Southern planters enjoyed their dinner as late as bubbling stews were carried into the fields to feed the slaves and laborers...In the early settlements, poor families ate from trenchers filled from a common stew pot, with a bowl of coars salt the only table adornment. The earliest trenchers in America, as in the Middle Ages, were probably made from slabs of stale bread which were either eaten with the meal or thrown after use to the domestic animals. The stews often included pork, sweet corn and cabbage, or other vegetables and roots which were available...A typical comfortably fixed family in the late 1700s probably served two courses for dinner. The first course included several meats plus meat puddings and/or deep meat pies containing fruits and spices, pancakes and fritters, and the ever-present side dishes of sauces, pickles and catsups...Soups seem to have been served before of in conjunction with the first course. Desserts appeared with the second course. An assortment of fresh, cooked, or dried fruits, custards, tarts and sweetmeats was usually available. "Sallats," (salads) though more popular at supper, sometimes were served at dinner and occasionally provided decoration in the center of the table...Cakes were of many varieties: pound, gingerbread, spice and cheese."
---A Cooking Legacy (p. 24-28)

"Supper. What is there to say about a meal that probably did not even exist for many settlers during the eary days of the Colonies and later seemed more like a bedtime snack made up of leftovers?...In the eighteenth century supper was a brief meal and, especially in the South, light and late. It generally consisted of leftovers from dinner, or of gruel (a mixture made from boiling water with oats, "Indian," (corn meal) or some other meal). One Massachusetts diary of 1797 describes roast potatoes, prepared with salt but no butter. Ale, cider, or some variety of beer was always served. In the richer merchant society and in Southern plantation life, eggs and egg dishes were special delicacies and were prepared as side dishes at either dinner or supper...Supper took on added importance as the nineteeth century wore on. This heretofore casual meal became more important as dinner was served earlier in the day."
---A Cooking Legacy (p. 79-81)
Source: http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodcolonia ... lmealtimes

The most popular cookbook at the time was The Art of Cookery (published in 1747) by Hannah Glasse. Most of the recipes used saturated fats.

http://books.google.com/books?id=xJdAAA ... &q&f=false

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And if we look at the lives of the well-documented Founding Fathers, we see the following life spans were recorded:

Founding Fathers: Longevity and family life

For their era, the 1787 delegates (like the 1776 signers) were average in terms of life spans. Their average age at death was about 67. The first to die was Houston in 1788; the last was Madison in 1836.

Secretary Charles Thomson lived to the age of 94. Johnson died at 92. John Adams lived to the age of 90. A few—Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Williamson, and Wythe—lived into their eighties. Either 15 or 16 (depending on Fitzsimons's exact age) died in their seventies, 20 or 21 in their sixties, eight in their fifties, and five only in their forties. Three (Alexander Hamilton, Richard Dobbs Spaight and Button Gwinnett) were killed in duels.

Most of the delegates married and raised children. Sherman fathered the largest family: 15 children by two wives. At least nine (Bassett, Brearly, Johnson, Mason, Paterson, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Sherman, Wilson, and Wythe) married more than once. Four (Baldwin, Gilman, Jenifer, and Alexander Martin) were lifelong bachelors. Many of the delegates also had children conceived illegitimately

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Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_F ... amily_life

Many of the Founding Fathers died from various causes — many of which would now be preventable. Heart disease was very rare back then. And now we're supposed to believe that saturated fats cause heart disease? Something doesn't add up.

[Gumby]

Maybe the below abstract will bring some clarity, which is what I personally use as a foundational model.

MG, I appreciate your input and sharing your model... But, I personally don't see how that diet is accurate. I'm having trouble believing that cave men and ancient native cultures went out of their way to consume lean meat — purposefully discarding fatty pieces — and were seeking out polyunsaturated fats. It doesn't make any sense. It actually sounds ridiculous to me. Humans are genetically programmed to like the taste of saturated fat. It tastes good!

Hunters and gathers — particularly in North America — ate fatty animals (Antelope, Deer, Moose, Seal, Elk, Bison, Sheep, etc) and didn't waste any of their kills.

Besides, we know from cookbooks, and the historic record, that Americans (and British) during the 18th and 19th Centuries ate lots of saturated fat and heart disease was rare. How do you explain that?

[FarmerD]

Hunters and gathers — particularly in North America — ate fatty animals (Antelope, Deer, Moose, Seal, Elk, Bison, Sheep, etc) and didn't waste any of their kills.

I've read reports the Plains Indians and other aboriginals ate the organs first before eating the animal muscle.  The organs, particularly liver, is very high in minerals and amino acids (and cholesterol and saturated fat) and are the most nutrient dense part of the animal.

[BearBones]

From the following forum: http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ht ... ic.php?t=8
From

If you wouldn't mind adding the following study to your reading list, and giving us your opinion when you've had a chance to read it, I think we'd all appreciate hearing your thoughts on it...

http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/ ... 5.abstract

Spent less than 15 minutes on this, and this is not my area of expertise, so I do not want to sound authoritative. Suspect that this is a reputable peer-reviewed journal, perhaps one of the best in nutrition. A landmark study, however, would probably be published elsewhere, such as NEJM, JAMA or Lancet. In general, meta-analyses are useful for formulating hypotheses but poor at testing them. I have seen many examples when large epidemiological studies and meta-analyses showed one thing when subsequent well designed clinical trials (prospective, randomized, multi-center, and placebo-controlled) showed the opposite (e.g., beta carotene and lung cancer).
Unfortunately, the relationship between saturated fats and CVD is not very amenable to prospective clinical trials. It sounds like there are at least a few prospective intervention trials (references 19-21) that do show protective effect of reducing saturated fats. The authors attempt to justify the difference between their data and those of others in the 6th paragraph of the discussion, but it would be interesting to see what others think.

Sure would be interesting to spend a week reading about this. It is an interesting topic, and I bet that it is much more nuanced than most people realize (e.g., relationship b/w saturated and unsaturated fats, calorie intake, types of carbohydrate, omega 3/6 intake, etc).

Thanks for posting.

[MediumTex]

Can someone provide me with a quick response to the usefulness of taking a teaspoon or so of olive oil a day?

I catch myself feeling like I'm not getting enough fat in my diet (not feeling full after meals, crashing soon after, etc.), but I don't necessarily want to go out of my way to eat a slab of meat just to feel like I'm full.

With breakfast cereals especially, it seems like it's hard to get enough fat to get a good start to the day if you don't want to drink whole milk (I like unsweetened almond milk because it has less sugar than cow milk).  Would a teaspoon of olive oil with the cereal and coffee be a better way to start off?

[t-bear52]

Try adding hemp hearts to your cereal. Strong in Omega 3's.
If oatmeal, add chia seeds.

[Gosso]

Can someone provide me with a quick response to the usefulness of taking a teaspoon or so of olive oil a day?

I catch myself feeling like I'm not getting enough fat in my diet (not feeling full after meals, crashing soon after, etc.), but I don't necessarily want to go out of my way to eat a slab of meat just to feel like I'm full.

With breakfast cereals especially, it seems like it's hard to get enough fat to get a good start to the day if you don't want to drink whole milk (I like unsweetened almond milk because it has less sugar than cow milk).  Would a teaspoon of olive oil with the cereal and coffee be a better way to start off?

For breakfast I normally have a parfait, with full fat yogurt, frozen or fresh berries, granola, seeds or nuts, and some raisins.  It is very filling and provides a nice smooth energy for most of the morning.  I sometimes even skip lunch without crashing.

That saturated fat sure does burn nicely...although it might help to become fat adapted first.

[FarmerD]

Can someone provide me with a quick response to the usefulness of taking a teaspoon or so of olive oil a day?

I catch myself feeling like I'm not getting enough fat in my diet (not feeling full after meals, crashing soon after, etc.), but I don't necessarily want to go out of my way to eat a slab of meat just to feel like I'm full.

With breakfast cereals especially, it seems like it's hard to get enough fat to get a good start to the day if you don't want to drink whole milk (I like unsweetened almond milk because it has less sugar than cow milk).  Would a teaspoon of olive oil with the cereal and coffee be a better way to start off?

Keep in mind American food makers try hard to convince people they need to eat sugary cereal foods for breakfast (pancakes, boxed cereal, granola, etc) but this concept is alien in many other cultures.  People in these cultures eat the same foods for breakfast as they do for lunch and dinner.  From a nutrition standpoint, you're better off eating ice cream for breakfast rather than any ready-to-eat cereal.  

There's nothing wrong with taking a teasoon of olive oil though in my opinion there's more tasty ways of getting more fats into your diet.  For example, I try to eat a lot of avocado.  The predominant oil in avocado is monostaurated fat which is the same type of fat in olive oil.  

I can't eat many carbs in my diet so I have to make up the difference by eating more fats.  So I eat things like:
- stir fry with coconut oil (no rice)
- salads with olive oil and avocado
- Vietnamese spring roll with avocado
- fried eggs in olive oil/coconut oil
- Thai curries
- Thai beef salads

All these meals are very low in carbs, moderate protein, but high in fats with lots of vegetables.  You may want to try some of these (even for breakfatst.

Just my opinion.

[Gumby]

Can someone provide me with a quick response to the usefulness of taking a teaspoon or so of olive oil a day?

I catch myself feeling like I'm not getting enough fat in my diet (not feeling full after meals, crashing soon after, etc.), but I don't necessarily want to go out of my way to eat a slab of meat just to feel like I'm full.

Well, here's something to think about... Ghee (which is pure clarified butter, not the modern 'partially-hydrogenated-vegetable-oil-ghee-substitute' now being sold) was considered by Hindus to be a sacred oil, for thousands of years. It was the most precious byproduct of their most sacred animal. Hindus cooked and ate ghee for their entire lives.

It sounds crazy until you realize that Ghee has high concentrations of essential vitamins that likely sustained generations of Hindus over thousands of years:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -mk-4.html

In fact, Ghee has so many vitamins, you would likely need to curb your intake of supplemented vitamins if you took even a daily half-teaspoon of Ghee.

It all makes me wonder if our modern diet is way more malnourishing compared to our ancestors. I used to think that our ancestors were probably malnourished and didn't understand the "science" of supplementing a diet with lots of vitamins. But, when you consider how many vitamins are in saturated fats, it starts to become clear that our ancestors were getting a lot of vitamins, minerals and nutrients from saturated fats. Now that our diets have so little saturated fat in them, we don't get nearly the amount of natural vitamins that our ancestors got. So, our "modern" society puts synthetic versions of those vitamins into pills and sells them to us...

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So, when you're in the store, and you see the products like this one...

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...what you're likely seeing is a tub that says, "I Can't Believe There Are No Vitamins!"... and, "Now with 70% less vitamins!"

Even our mass-produced saturated fats are sick looking — lacking natural vitamins...

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Same thing with eggs. Can you spot the pastured egg in this photo?...

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So, it all makes me wonder why we go through the trouble of removing all the vitamin-laden saturated fats that our ancestors ate — particularly when heart disease was rare before the 20th Century and saturated fat intake was high. This is why I started this thread with the question... "What If Saturated Fats Are Essential?"

[Lone Wolf]

Can someone provide me with a quick response to the usefulness of taking a teaspoon or so of olive oil a day?

I catch myself feeling like I'm not getting enough fat in my diet (not feeling full after meals, crashing soon after, etc.), but I don't necessarily want to go out of my way to eat a slab of meat just to feel like I'm full.

With breakfast cereals especially, it seems like it's hard to get enough fat to get a good start to the day if you don't want to drink whole milk (I like unsweetened almond milk because it has less sugar than cow milk).  Would a teaspoon of olive oil with the cereal and coffee be a better way to start off?

My solution has generally been to work some ground flax seed into breakfast (along with a couple of fish oil caps.)  I've never tried this in cereal but it's certainly great in shakes.  But in general, flax is a good source of omega-3 that I find reasonably versatile for many purposes, baking included.

I know that cottage cheese isn't for everyone but here's a breakfast that I really enjoy:

Half pound of cottage cheese
Two tablespoons of peanut butter (approx. one ounce)
Half ounce of flax seed
30g chocolate protein powder
Quarter pound of blueberries
High fiber cereal, ~1.5 ounces
Sweetener like stevia or Splenda

I mix the hell out of that with a spoon and eat it.  The KCals are (intentionally) on the high-ish side but it's got a serious shot of protein and a nice dose of healthy fat.

[MediumTex]

Can someone provide me with a quick response to the usefulness of taking a teaspoon or so of olive oil a day?

I catch myself feeling like I'm not getting enough fat in my diet (not feeling full after meals, crashing soon after, etc.), but I don't necessarily want to go out of my way to eat a slab of meat just to feel like I'm full.

With breakfast cereals especially, it seems like it's hard to get enough fat to get a good start to the day if you don't want to drink whole milk (I like unsweetened almond milk because it has less sugar than cow milk).  Would a teaspoon of olive oil with the cereal and coffee be a better way to start off?

My solution has generally been to work some ground flax seed into breakfast (along with a couple of fish oil caps.)  I've never tried this in cereal but it's certainly great in shakes.  But in general, flax is a good source of omega-3 that I find reasonably versatile for many purposes, baking included.

I take a flax seed oil supplement each day as well.  I stopped taking fish oil after the Fukushima disaster based on a dream I had in which all of the fish were radioactive. 

I used to think that a breakfast of steak and eggs was a crazy thing to do, but now it sounds like exactly the way I would like to start off the day.

I hate the jittery feeling I get when I eat a meal with too little fat.

It's a shame that whale meat is off limits for most people, because I would love to experience the "fat buzz" that people talk about getting from eating it.

[FarmerD]

Gumby,
The dark orange egg yolk is pastured.  We used to raise 100's of chickens each year for meat/eggs.  We never fed tham once they were a month or so old.  We turned them loose to find their own food.  They ate garden vegetables we threw out, spilled corn and oats from our cattle operation, along with weed seeds, mulberries, grasshoppers and worms etc.  The yolks were always twice as big as store bought and always had a dark orange color.  The puke yellow eggs are factory farmed. 

The chicken meat we had was also vastly different than store bought.  My dad always said he couldn't eat store bought chicken because it tasted "like flavorless mud."  For one thing, the chickens we had had dark orange skin rather than the pasty white skin you see in the grocery store.  Ours had 10 times the chicken flavor.  Personally, I find it almost impossible to make chicken soup from store bought. 

Man, I miss having those chickens around.

[FarmerD]

By the way, the sentence I typed above:

"From a nutrition standpoint, you're better off eating ice cream for breakfast rather than any ready-to-eat cereal."

is a quote from a friend of mine who was a VP at Conagra Foods.  After working there for a few years he became comcerned about the health of eating the foods they promote after talking to some of the food scientists there.  In particular he became distressed about the vegetable oils marketed as well as the cereal products.   

[Lone Wolf]

I take a flax seed oil supplement each day as well.  I stopped taking fish oil after the Fukushima disaster based on a dream I had in which all of the fish were radioactive.

  Ugh!  Nothing would suck the joy out of any food more than hearing the tick of a geiger counter in your head every time you ingested it!

I used to think that a breakfast of steak and eggs was a crazy thing to do, but now it sounds like exactly the way I would like to start off the day.

I hate the jittery feeling I get when I eat a meal with too little fat.

Is it possible that people back in the old days ate less in general?

Isn't lower caloric intake (up to a point) correlated with better health?

Yes!  Apart from the effort that it requires, steak, eggs, and some bacon makes for a fine breakfast IMO.

As for caloric intake, you're definitely on to something.  However, I justify higher calorie eating in this way -- leanness is a greater predictor of health than caloric intake.  Less scientifically, I believe that lean body mass correlates very strongly with how "young" you feel.  If you have a strong back, a strong grip, and a generally higher level of strength and lean mass, many (if not most) of life's physical experiences are better (as well as accessible to you for a longer portion of your life.)

In other words, if a human gets up off the couch, lifts heavy things and generally moves his or her ass like animals are meant to, he/she will require a higher caloric intake.  I think that so long as an individual maintains a low level of body fat, this higher caloric requirement is something to embrace.  Caloric intake itself is IMO less of a concern so long as one is lean and living the life of a "physical being".

[MediumTex]

Less scientifically, I believe that lean body mass correlates very strongly with how "young" you feel.  If you have a strong back, a strong grip, and a generally higher level of strength and lean mass, many (if not most) of life's physical experiences are better (as well as accessible to you for a longer portion of your life.)

In other words, if a human gets up off the couch, lifts heavy things and generally moves his or her ass like animals are meant to, he/she will require a higher caloric intake.  I think that so long as an individual maintains a low level of body fat, this higher caloric requirement is something to embrace.  Caloric intake itself is IMO less of a concern so long as one is lean and living the life of a "physical being".

I completely agree. 

I have always thought that one's ability to climb a pole is probably a great predictor of overall health, since it requires strength (including a strong grip), coordination, concentration, and the ability to maintain a certain tension in many different muscles for the duration of the climb.  (I'm sure the same is true of rock climbing, but in the suburb I grew up in there were lots of poles, but no sheer rock faces.)

I went to physical therapy a few years ago and one of the tests the therapist did was on grip strength.  The therapist said that it is a good proxy for overall body strength.  She was surprised at my grip strength, since I'm not a muscular guy overall.  She said that she sees many men who work desk jobs who come in there with incredibly weak grips (which might explain some of the fish ghost handshakes you occasionally run across).  I thought to myself how poor overall body strength probably makes it a lot easier to experience an injury requiring physical therapy.

Another simple measurement of strength is vertical jump ability.  It's amazing how tired you can get from just doing vertical jumps from a standing position trying to reach the highest possible point.

[Gumby]

I stopped taking fish oil after the Fukushima disaster based on a dream I had in which all of the fish were radioactive.

Interesting... I heard that mice exposed to large doses of radiation survived 50-100% longer than normal if fed cod liver oil (no joke). Maybe the two would counteract each other

For the record, I just started following the Weston Price recommendations for daily combo of Fermented Cod Liver Oil and Butter Oil (Ghee) as my main source of supplements. They recommended taking them in combination:

http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... oil-basics

Dr. Price always gave cod liver oil along with high-vitamin butter oil, extracted by centrifuge from good quality spring or fall butter. He found that cod liver oil on its own was relatively ineffective but combined with high vitamin butter oil produced excellent results. The butter oil contains what he called Activator X, now considered to be vitamin K2, which works synergistically with vitamins A and D (see Chris Masterjohn's article "On the Trail of the Elusive X Factor: A Sixty-Year Old Mystery Finally Solved"). Your diet should include sources of vitamin K, such as good quality butter from grass-fed cows and/or high-vitamin butter oil, fat from grass-fed animals, cheeses from grass-fed animals and duck or goose liver, along with cod liver oil.
Source: http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... oil-basics

It's pretty crazy, but the cod liver oil/butter oil combo actually thins your blood. I wonder if that's one of the keys to getting good fat intake? Cod Liver Oil (and pastured butter) used to be a big part of people's diets back in the day.

I used to think that a breakfast of steak and eggs was a crazy thing to do, but now it sounds like exactly the way I would like to start off the day.

I just tried it the other day. Got some pastured eggs (nice and orange yolks, just like FarmerD described) and cooked up some sausage all in butter — sprinkling the tops with fresh chives. I felt so satisfied, I practically forgot to have lunch, as I wasn't even hungry then. Major cholecystokinin flowing through my veins. It felt good. Maybe it will kill me, but the sensation feels like how people must have survived on small amounts of food.

[Lone Wolf]

I have always thought that one's ability to climb a pole is probably a great predictor of overall health, since it requires strength (including a strong grip), coordination, concentration, and the ability to maintain a certain tension in many different muscles for the duration of the climb.  (I'm sure the same is true of rock climbing, but in the suburb I grew up in there were lots of poles, but no sheer rock faces.)

What a fun idea.  What did you climb around on?  Should I just sort of try to shimmy up a stop sign? 

I went to physical therapy a few years ago and one of the tests the therapist did was on grip strength.  The therapist said that it is a good proxy for overall body strength.  She was surprised at my grip strength, since I'm not a muscular guy overall.  She said that she sees many men who work desk jobs who come in there with incredibly weak grips (which might explain some of the fish ghost handshakes you occasionally run across).  I thought to myself how poor overall body strength probably makes it a lot easier to experience an injury requiring physical therapy.

Congratulations!  In all seriousness, do you think this might be down to the carpet cleaning and lugging around all that heavy equipment?  My grip was absolute crap before I started with heavy deadlifts.  The manual labor involved in your carpet cleaning moonlighting gig seems like it could easily be where your supergrip came from!

[MediumTex]

I have always thought that one's ability to climb a pole is probably a great predictor of overall health, since it requires strength (including a strong grip), coordination, concentration, and the ability to maintain a certain tension in many different muscles for the duration of the climb.  (I'm sure the same is true of rock climbing, but in the suburb I grew up in there were lots of poles, but no sheer rock faces.)

What a fun idea.  What did you climb around on?  Should I just sort of try to shimmy up a stop sign? 

Streetlights, mostly for the purpose of breaking them.  (I feel terrible about my lack of respect for others' property when I was a kid.)

I went to physical therapy a few years ago and one of the tests the therapist did was on grip strength.  The therapist said that it is a good proxy for overall body strength.  She was surprised at my grip strength, since I'm not a muscular guy overall.  She said that she sees many men who work desk jobs who come in there with incredibly weak grips (which might explain some of the fish ghost handshakes you occasionally run across).  I thought to myself how poor overall body strength probably makes it a lot easier to experience an injury requiring physical therapy.

Congratulations!  In all seriousness, do you think this might be down to the carpet cleaning and lugging around all that heavy equipment?  My grip was absolute crap before I started with heavy deadlifts.  The manual labor involved in your carpet cleaning moonlighting gig seems like it could easily be where your supergrip came from!

The carpet cleaning came after.  My grip now is so strong that I can crush a tennis ball "Jaime Sommers-style"  (see http://youtu.be/qcba-ZgtsT4 at :42).

[FarmerD]

For the record, I just started following the Weston Price recommendations for daily combo of Fermented Cod Liver Oil and Butter Oil (Ghee) as my main source of supplements. They recommended taking them in combination:

http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... oil-basics

Dr. Price always gave cod liver oil along with high-vitamin butter oil, extracted by centrifuge from good quality spring or fall butter. He found that cod liver oil on its own was relatively ineffective but combined with high vitamin butter oil produced excellent results. The butter oil contains what he called Activator X, now considered to be vitamin K2, which works synergistically with vitamins A and D (see Chris Masterjohn's article "On the Trail of the Elusive X Factor: A Sixty-Year Old Mystery Finally Solved"). Your diet should include sources of vitamin K, such as good quality butter from grass-fed cows and/or high-vitamin butter oil, fat from grass-fed animals, cheeses from grass-fed animals and duck or goose liver, along with cod liver oil.
Source: http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... oil-basics

It's pretty crazy, but the cod liver oil/butter oil combo actually thins your blood. I wonder if that's one of the keys to getting good fat intake? Cod Liver Oil (and pastured butter) used to be a big part of people's diets back in the day.

Gumby,

Dr Davis in his blog talks about some impressive studies that show Vitamin K2 consumption is directly related to heart attack rate.  I'd always heard Vitamin K2 was highest in hard fermented cheeses like parmesian.  I didn't know grass fed butter was a good source of Vitamin K2. 

Thanks for that info!  You've obviously done a good bit of research. 

Do you know any place where to buy grass fed butter?  Whole Foods perhaps?

[Gumby]

Dr Davis in his blog talks about some impressive studies that show Vitamin K2 consumption is directly related to heart attack rate.  I'd always heard Vitamin K2 was highest in hard fermented cheeses like parmesian.  I didn't know grass fed butter was a good source of Vitamin K2.

God, I hope you mean fewer heart attacks!

Do you know any place where to buy grass fed butter?  Whole Foods perhaps?

Our Whole Foods tends to sell locally sourced butter — which can be turned into Ghee. And local farms sell it of course too — and that's hard to beat. Ghee and butter oil are the same thing. Supposedly Ghee is awesome to cook with due to its high smoke point.

At the bottom of that previous Weston Price link, the foundation recommends the Green Pastures brand for Fermented Cod Liver Oil and their Butter Oil.

http://www.greenpasture.org/

They make those products the old fashioned way... fish guts fermented in tanks for 6 months for their Cod Liver Oil and then spun in a centrifuge to remove mercury, lead and other impurities. Nobody else does it like they do anymore. Their butter oil is from pasture cows but its quite expensive. So, it's probably more cost effective to make Ghee on your own with locally sourced butter. The only difference is that you have to refrigerate homemade Ghee because you (probably) won't have a centrifuge to remove all the milk solids.

I just put my three year old toddler on their Cod Liver Oil and Butter Oil mixture three weeks ago. He always had some minor sensory and anxiety issues and has always been an extremely picky eater. It's been three weeks since I started putting the oils into his smoothies and his brain really calmed down a lot. He's able to think things through now and sleeping a lot better — even during mid-day naps. It's like a totally different kid. His brain was apparently starving for saturated fats and omega 3s (which are apparently important for brain development). We just added whole milk back into his diet as well. Normally I would be afraid to try something like this on my child, but I don't see this as a fad. This is what kids used to have before modern vitamins were invented.

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[Lone Wolf]

I just put my three year old toddler on their Cod Liver Oil and Butter Oil mixture three weeks ago. He always had some minor sensory and anxiety issues and has always been an extremely picky eater. It's been three weeks since I started putting the oils into his smoothies and his brain really calmed down a lot. He's able to think things through now and sleeping a lot better — even during mid-day naps. It's like a totally different kid. His brain was apparently starving for saturated fats and omega 3s (which are apparently important for brain development). We just added whole milk back into his diet as well. Normally I would be afraid to try something like this on my child, but I don't see this as a fad. This is what kids used to have before modern vitamins were invented.

Gumby, what guidelines did you follow for omega-3 dosages for your little one?

Congratulations on having so much success so quickly with this regimen!

[Gumby]

I just put my three year old toddler on their Cod Liver Oil and Butter Oil mixture three weeks ago. He always had some minor sensory and anxiety issues and has always been an extremely picky eater. It's been three weeks since I started putting the oils into his smoothies and his brain really calmed down a lot. He's able to think things through now and sleeping a lot better — even during mid-day naps. It's like a totally different kid. His brain was apparently starving for saturated fats and omega 3s (which are apparently important for brain development). We just added whole milk back into his diet as well. Normally I would be afraid to try something like this on my child, but I don't see this as a fad. This is what kids used to have before modern vitamins were invented.

Gumby, what guidelines did you follow for omega-3 dosages for your little one?

Congratulations on having so much success so quickly with this regimen!

I just used the basic guidelines here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... oil-basics

It's a little confusing, but the general idea is that each day a toddler would take 1/2 a teaspoon (2.5mL) of Fermented Cod Liver Oil and 1/4 teaspoon (1.23mL) of High Vitamin Butter Oil. An adult would take 1 teaspoon of Fermented Cod Liver Oil and 1/2 teaspoon of High Vitamin Butter Oil. There are some exceptions, as pregnant or nursing mothers get different amounts. And if someone is sick, or under the weather, you can give a little extra.

And, there are a few things you should know...

1) Weston Price believed that the combination of butter oil and fermented cod liver oil were essential — each making the other more powerful, healing and safe for the body.

2) The Weston Price Foundation certainly has its critics. They do not follow the recommendations of mainstream doctors, and they are proud of it. You can read about their mission here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/about-the-f ... foundation

Some people call them quacks. But, I'm not so sure. Dr. Price did a lot of digging into the historical record and indigenous cultures to see why those populations were so healthy (and why our modern society has wreaked so much havoc on our bodies) and the foundation's mission is to continue that work. In any case, their recommendations for cod liver oil — which they claim is one of the most important supplements you can take — are pretty tame compared to some of their other recommendations (such as adding lard, tallow, butter and cream in your diet).

3) Cod liver oil will thin your blood. Proponents of cod liver oil has been known to replace their statins with cod liver oil. Some doctors may be uneasy with this, so if this is something you want to do, it's best to find a doctor who is willing to work with you towards this goal. It is not recommended to take statins AND cod liver oil at the same time — that would probably be bad. Also, I believe one should stop taking cod liver oil a few days before any surgeries so that your blood isn't so thin.

4) Weston Price followers don't believe that cholesterol levels are something most people need to worry about (unless your total cholesterol is over 1100 or something). While this sounds crazy (and maybe it is) they say that cholesterol is something the body secretes to protect and heal itself. So, they say blaming cholesterol for heart attacks and heart disease is like blaming fires on firefighters: as in... mainstream science notices that firefighters are always around whenever a house burns down...therefore mainstream science has concluded that firefighters must be causing all these fires. In other words, cholesterol may really be indicative of another problem in the body and lowering your cholesterol may actually make things worse (since you are lowering your body's natural defenses). You don't have to believe any of this to understand the benefits of cod liver oil, but I point it out in case you do (ever) have high cholesterol, you may decide its worth it to take fermented cod liver oil rather than to be forced on to statins like everyone else. I believe many Naturopaths tend to recommend cod liver oil rather than pharmaceuticals and supplements for most people. I've seen newsletters from pediatric Naturopaths that want all their patients on fermented cod liver oil.

5) Fermented cod liver oil is different than mass-produced cod liver oil. Many people believe that fermented cod liver oil is better for you — and it's how it was made for centuries before modern machines came into existence. I believe it is more potent than regular mass-produced cod liver oil. However....

6) ...It really doesn't taste very good. This is likely why people stopped taking cod liver oil. Imagine you're a parent during the 1940s and you see an advertisement for modern vitamins: "Vitamins have no yucky taste and are easy to swallow!" So, pills beat cod liver oil in a taste test any day. But, Green Pasture sells some flavored cod liver oil and after three weeks of downing it... you don't really notice the taste after awhile. My toddler actually seems like the taste of it in his smoothie squeeze packet — which is pretty odd considering he is so picky.  

7) It's very gooey. That makes it difficult to give to a toddler. I went to Walmart and asked the pharmacist for some free syringes (they have them in a box behind the counter). This allows me to stuff it into a syringe, with a toothpick, the night before and leave the syringe sitting it in a glass in the fridge overnight, and then squeeze it directly into his yogurt-smoothie squeeze packet in the morning and mixing it up within the packet. He doesn't notice it.

8.) Green Pasture makes an emulsified paste of the cod liver oil and butter oil blend, which makes dosing easy. But, you just have to remember that if you use the blend, you would need to use the total volume of the two oils as your dosage: so that would be 3/4 teaspoon of the fermented cod liver oil/butter oil blend for toddlers and 1 1/2 teaspoons of the blend for adults.

9) It's expensive. However, the justification is that you don't need any other supplements. In fact, the two oils have so many natural vitamins in them that you really shouldn't be taking any additional Vitamin A or D with them.

10) There is no nutrition label. Green Pasture would need to be under the regulation of the FDA if they had a detailed label. The people who take FCLO already know what they are taking, so the label barely says anything about what's inside it.

11) You may get a runny nose or sinus pressure or feel fogginess during the first few days of taking FCLO. This is normal. Some people say this is your body detoxifying. Whatever it is, it goes away after a few days and its not really a big deal. One way around this is probably to start with a lower dose and work your way up.

Hope that helps, but please feel free to ask any questions. I also recommend calling the fine folks at Dr. Ron's and asking them for their opinions about any of this. They have relatively better prices on those products and are very knowledgeable.