Putin Invades Ukraine II

[yankees60]

1. Why is that never brought up? Prange is well-known.

Cannot answer that. I was well-documented in the book. It was all new to me at the time that I read it.

But that does not conform with this, which states early 1941.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/accord ... .u9m_pcw#0

I still have the book so can review it to find it.

I'm not that imaginative person and I know there is no way I would have ever imagined it absent reading all the shocking detail in the book.

[Xan]

1. Why is that never brought up? Prange is well-known.

Cannot answer that. I was well-documented in the book. It was all new to me at the time that I read it.

But that does not conform with this, which states early 1941.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/accord ... .u9m_pcw#0

I still have the book so can review it to find it.

I'm not that imaginative person and I know there is no way I would have ever imagined it absent reading all the shocking detail in the book.

That says that "formal planning" started in 1941. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had some kind of outline long before that. I assume that the US has plans for invading China, Japan, Australia, and everybody else, because it's a good exercise just to make the plans. A plan with the intent to use it is another question.

[dualstow]

I know a lot of westerners living in Japan, and they have talked about a museum there in which the display says that the U.S. “tricked” Japan into invading. A few of those guys whom I met in the past even swallowed that idea, perhaps because they are so in love with the country (so am I). I always ask them if all those other countries Japan invaded well before the Pearl Harbor attack, also tricked Japan. No answer.

[yankees60]

I know a lot of westerners living in Japan, and they have talked about a museum there in which the display says that the U.S. “tricked” Japan into invading. A few of those guys whom I met in the past even swallowed that idea, perhaps because they are so in love with the country (so am I). I always ask them if all those other countries Japan invaded well before the Pearl Harbor attack, also tricked Japan. No answer.

Seems similar to Trump saying that Ukraine was responsible for starting this war?

[dualstow]

ugh

[glennds]

I know a lot of westerners living in Japan, and they have talked about a museum there in which the display says that the U.S. “tricked” Japan into invading. A few of those guys whom I met in the past even swallowed that idea, perhaps because they are so in love with the country (so am I). I always ask them if all those other countries Japan invaded well before the Pearl Harbor attack, also tricked Japan. No answer.

I lived in Japan for a while, probably love it as much as you and the guys you met. But I never saw the museum in question nor heard anyone ever allege that Japan was tricked into invading.

However your story reminds me of the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh city. This is the museum dedicated to what we (Americans) call the Vietnam War and what the Vietnamese call the American War.
It presents a very different perspective on the war than what we have seen in American movies, including numerous atrocities committed by the US Government. Not the least of which was the multigenerational effect of the chemical weapons conceived by Dow Chemical and Monsanto and how indiscriminately they were used.
There was an interesting section on the importance of international photojournalists and the awareness they helped create through their documentation, including a memorial wall for all the photojournalists killed in the conflict.
There was another section that illustrated anti-war demonstrations in many countries and made a case that the US was largely isolated in its prosecution of the war.
If you get a chance, I recommend a visit to this museum, but if you are American, be prepared to have your understanding of the war challenged, and you can be the judge of where the true story lies.

[boglerdude]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident
tldr "The US government falsely claimed that a second incident occurred on 4 August, between North Vietnamese and United States ships in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin."

That said, last few years revealed metastasizing communism and many cant/wont see it. Watch out for that NB.1.8.1 variant btw

[dualstow]

Very interesting post, Glenn! I have only visited Japan although I’ve lived elsewhere in Asia.
May I ask where you lived?

EDIT: I did a google search:
“
Yes, some museums in Japan, particularly those focused on World War II, present a narrative suggesting that the United States was somehow responsible for or provoked the attack on Pearl Harbor. This view is often rooted in the concept of a "back door to war," which posits that President Franklin D. Roosevelt intentionally provoked Japan into attacking to bring the U.S. into World War II. [1, 2]
Elaboration:

• The "Back Door to War" Theory: This theory suggests that the U.S. government deliberately pushed Japan towards war, hoping that an attack on Pearl Harbor would force the U.S. to enter the war against Japan's ally, Nazi Germany. [1, 1, 2, 2]
• Historical Interpretation: While some historians acknowledge that the U.S. did not want war with Japan, they argue that the U.S. was unprepared for the attack and did not have advance knowledge of it. [1, 1, 3, 3]
• Japanese Perspective: Some Japanese individuals and institutions, particularly those focused on national history or wartime narratives, may hold a different perspective, seeing the attack on Pearl Harbor as a necessary act of self-defense or a result of U.S. provocation. [1, 1, 4, 4]
• Museums and Narratives: Museums in Japan that focus on World War II may present a narrative that includes or emphasizes the "back door to war" theory, potentially influencing public perception of the event. [1, 1, 2, 2]
• Ongoing Debate: The question of U.S. culpability in the Pearl Harbor attack remains a subject of debate and interpretation, with differing perspectives across various historical communities and cultures. [1, 1, 3, 3, 4, 4]

AI responses may include mistakes.

[1] https://www.fdrlibrary.org/ph-curriculum-hub[2] https://www.britannica.com/event/Pearl- ... -1688287[3] ] https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-did- ... arl-harbor

[yankees60]

Very interesting post, Glenn! I have only visited Japan although I’ve lived elsewhere in Asia.
May I ask where you lived?

EDIT: I did a google search:
“
Yes, some museums in Japan, particularly those focused on World War II, present a narrative suggesting that the United States was somehow responsible for or provoked the attack on Pearl Harbor. This view is often rooted in the concept of a "back door to war," which posits that President Franklin D. Roosevelt intentionally provoked Japan into attacking to bring the U.S. into World War II. [1, 2]
Elaboration:

• The "Back Door to War" Theory: This theory suggests that the U.S. government deliberately pushed Japan towards war, hoping that an attack on Pearl Harbor would force the U.S. to enter the war against Japan's ally, Nazi Germany. [1, 1, 2, 2]
• Historical Interpretation: While some historians acknowledge that the U.S. did not want war with Japan, they argue that the U.S. was unprepared for the attack and did not have advance knowledge of it. [1, 1, 3, 3]
• Japanese Perspective: Some Japanese individuals and institutions, particularly those focused on national history or wartime narratives, may hold a different perspective, seeing the attack on Pearl Harbor as a necessary act of self-defense or a result of U.S. provocation. [1, 1, 4, 4]
• Museums and Narratives: Museums in Japan that focus on World War II may present a narrative that includes or emphasizes the "back door to war" theory, potentially influencing public perception of the event. [1, 1, 2, 2]
• Ongoing Debate: The question of U.S. culpability in the Pearl Harbor attack remains a subject of debate and interpretation, with differing perspectives across various historical communities and cultures. [1, 1, 3, 3, 4, 4]

AI responses may include mistakes.

[1] https://www.fdrlibrary.org/ph-curriculum-hub[2] https://www.britannica.com/event/Pearl- ... -1688287[3] https://www.npr.org/2016/12/06/50444986 ... l-harbor[4] https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-did- ... arl-harbor

How do they all explain how the United States had almost no army? It was only about the 9th largest in the world. Why provoke a war when you have so little?

[yankees60]

Finally found it!!!

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/in-whi ... BG4GQtEA#0


Gordon Prange stated that the Japanese began planning the Pearl Harbor attack as much as ten years in advance in his book At Dawn We Slept: The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor (1981). This work is widely recognized as the definitive account of the planning, execution, and aftermath of the attack, and it draws on decades of Prange's research, including interviews with both Japanese and American participants. In At Dawn We Slept, Prange details how the roots of the Pearl Harbor operation can be traced back to Japanese naval thinking and strategic planning dating to the 1930s, well before the final operational details were put in place in 1941.



Gordon Prange's research in At Dawn We Slept provides a detailed account of the conception and planning of the Pearl Harbor attack, emphasizing the Japanese perspective and the roles of key figures like Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto and Minoru Genda. Prange's work shows that the idea for the attack was rooted in Japanese naval thinking and strategic discussions that evolved over several years, particularly intensifying in the late 1930s and 1940, as Japan sought to secure its interests in the Pacific and Southeast Asia.

However, while Prange meticulously traces the origins and development of the plan, his research does not reveal evidence of a formal, concrete Japanese attack plan for Pearl Harbor that existed a full ten years in advance. Instead, he documents how the concept gradually took shape, with serious operational planning beginning in 1940 under Yamamoto's leadership. Prange's narrative highlights the long-term strategic thinking and the buildup of Japanese military capabilities, but it attributes the final decision to attack Pearl Harbor to the months leading up to December 1941, rather than to a decade-long, continuous plan.

In summary, At Dawn We Slept demonstrates that while Japanese leaders engaged in long-term strategic planning and considered conflict with the United States for years, the specific plan for the Pearl Harbor attack was developed in the immediate years before 1941, not as a detailed plot set in motion a decade earlier.

[dualstow]

So, 1940-1941.

[yankees60]

So, 1940-1941.

"In At Dawn We Slept, Prange details how the roots of the Pearl Harbor operation can be traced back to Japanese naval thinking and strategic planning dating to the 1930s, well before the final operational details were put in place in 1941."