Does variance matter to long term investors?

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Jack Jones
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Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by Jack Jones »

I've been trying to square away the results of this paper:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4590406 wrote:We challenge two tenets of lifecycle investing: (i) diversify across stocks and bonds and (ii) reduce equity allocations with age. An optimal lifetime allocation of 33% domestic stocks, 67% international stocks, 0% bonds, and 0% bills vastly outperforms age-based, stock-bond strategies in building wealth, supporting retirement consumption, preserving capital, and generating bequests. Our lifecycle model preserves crucial time-series and cross-sectional dependencies in asset returns and addresses small sample issues in US data. Our investors prefer diversifying with international stocks, not bonds. Target-date fund investors need 61% more pre-retirement savings to match the all-equity strategy’s expected utility over retirement consumption and bequest.
There seems to be two camps in modern investing. I'm going to try to steel man both here. This paper is from the variance doesn't matter camp. The results from this paper showed that even in the worst cases, an all stock portfolio resulted in better utility for a model couple doing long term investing.

However, here is where the variance matters camp (which includes risk-parity portfolios like the PP) would jump in and say but wait, what about the drawdowns. From the paper:
During the working years, each strategy produces large real drawdowns on average. Panel A of
Table V shows average maximal drawdowns of 42% for bills, 67% for domestic stocks, 54% for the
balanced strategy, 52% for the TDF, and 55% for the optimal strategy. The optimal strategy’s 55%
average drawdown would cause discomfort for even the most stalwart investors, but each strategy
that attempts to provide long-term appreciation is subject to similarly large average losses. Investors,
advisors, and regulators are likely most concerned about the largest potential drawdowns, and the
optimal strategy outperforms the alternatives in the right tail of the drawdown distribution. The 95th
percentile drawdown of 76% for the optimal strategy is favorable relative to drawdowns of 96% (bills),
96% (domestic stocks), 92% (balanced), and 81% (TDF).
It's cool that this optimal strategy is only as bad as 60/40 in terms of drawdowns; however, we know that we can construct portfolios with a lower pucker factor. The variance matters camp is perhaps more aware of the psychology of investing and realizes that a portfolio is only good if you can hold onto it. So they might hold a less optimal portfolio in terms of lifetime utility but might actually end up w/ more lifetime utility because they can actually maintain the course.

I'll end w/ two final retorts from the variance doesn't matter camp:
  • So you're holding a sub-optimal portfolio in terms of lifetime utility because we're human beings and we make mistakes in the face of variance. As we all know, holding a portfolio of uncorrelated assets isn't easy either. There tends to always be a loser. I will grant that we're more likely to make mistakes when the overall value of the portfolio falls, but we will still be subject to behavioral errors as we watch the components of our portfolio rise and fall.
  • Rather than run w/ a sub-optimal portfolio in terms of lifetime utility in the attempts to behave better, why not hold an optimal portfolio and rely on an advisor to backstop your behavioral issues? We don't have to do this alone.
Kevin K.
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by Kevin K. »

Yeah there's a good-sized thread on that paper on Bogleheads.

It seems to me that it can't be said often or loudly enough that behavioral pyschology needs to be taken into account at least as much as portfolio construction and market history. William Bernstein is of course one of the masterful writers about this - which is why his Four PIllars of Investing (especially the new updated edition) is so essential. Tyler at Portfolio Charts is equally eloquent in his own graphics-driven way in showing what the "pucker factor" as you put it really is like if you own a portfolio. Ditto with Cullen Roche and his defined duration approach to investing:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... 20process.

Getting back to Bernstein, his advisory firm caters exclusively to high net-worth investors who are supposedly clear about their risk tolerance and have plenty of assets to weather any storm. But during the 2008 market meltdown he had people calling him up left and right wanting to abandon ship and go to cash. I'm oversimplifying here but I do know that one of the reasons Bernstein is so relentless in advocating building a liability matching portfolio (LMP) using a TIPS ladder is because he really understands that most people aren't investors, they're savers. That's why studies consistently find that folks in retirement who have pensions, annuities, SS and other forms of stable income that come as close as possible to replicating the paycheck they had during their working years are far happier - and spend far more freely - than those who by choice or out of necessity take a probabalistic approach to investing and live off of investments that fluctuate wildly in value.

At the end of the day a lot of the enduring value of the PP specifically and Harry Browne's thinking in general is in inspiring a whole range of portfolios (most of them featured prominently on Portfolio Charts) that reflect the reality that for most investors the Will Rogers quip still holds true:

“People should be more concerned with the return of their principal than the return on their principal.”
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ochotona
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by ochotona »

It all depends of whether the investor is accumulation or living off of the assets.

If they are eating the assets or within 5-10 years of doing so, absolutely variance matters. Variance is a major factor in portfolio survivability in retirement.

People have a super hard time transitioning their mindset as they age. Retirement is NOT about "number go up". Retirement is about the probability of generating enough after-tax, after-inflation cash flows to fund your life.

Go to PortfolioVisualizer.com and run their Monte Carlo with different allocations and you will see for yourself. The Permanent Portfolio does very well considering it's so simple.

Or go to the Safe Withdrawal Rate charts at portfoliocharts.com and try different models there.
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by xmj »

Variance matters in that it's what drives the difference between arithmetic and geometric returns

Geometric Returns = Arithmetic Return - Variance / 2.

So given two investments with identical arithmetic returns, the one with lower variance will grow faster, behavioral psychology notwithstanding.

See Arithmetic Versus Geometric Mean Conundrum for a more lengthy explanation.
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ochotona
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by ochotona »

xmj wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 1:50 pm Variance matters in that it's what drives the difference between arithmetic and geometric returns

Geometric Returns = Arithmetic Return - Variance / 2.

So given two investments with identical arithmetic returns, the one with lower variance will grow faster, behavioral psychology notwithstanding.

See Arithmetic Versus Geometric Mean Conundrum for a more lengthy explanation.
That's a cool insight!
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by Kevin K. »

ochotona wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 11:19 am It all depends of whether the investor is accumulation or living off of the assets.

If they are eating the assets or within 5-10 years of doing so, absolutely variance matters. Variance is a major factor in portfolio survivability in retirement.

People have a super hard time transitioning their mindset as they age. Retirement is NOT about "number go up". Retirement is about the probability of generating enough after-tax, after-inflation cash flows to fund your life.

Go to PortfolioVisualizer.com and run their Monte Carlo with different allocations and you will see for yourself. The Permanent Portfolio does very well considering it's so simple.

Or go to the Safe Withdrawal Rate charts at portfoliocharts.com and try different models there.
Tyler has an especially excellent post addressing this very issue of the standard advice to be largely or totally in stocks early on in one's investing career and then dial things back in retirement:

https://portfoliocharts.com/2016/07/25/ ... tion-plan/

I think he makes a compelling argument for investing in a much more diversified and robustly defensive way from the outset. In so doing he's echoing none other than Harry Browne. The first two of the 17 rules for financial safety after all are: 1. Your career provides your wealth. 2. Your wealth may be non-replaceable.

I'm retired but if I were 40 years younger I think I'd be quite comfortable going all-in on the Golden Butterfly, Pinwheel or Ideal Index portfolios featured on Portfolio Charts, or even something much simpler like the 80% Wellesley/20% gold portfolio Tyler himself suggested a few years back as a GB alterative.
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by boglerdude »

Varies by individual. People who check their numbers weekly or more maybe should be more defensive/risk parity.

I dunno if people do that out of fear or excitement though. Similarly I'm trying to figure out why some people love gambling. Drugs I understand. Are they thinking that if they can hit it big, their entire life will change?
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by seajay »

In 60% of 30 year SWR cases since 1872 the MaxWR% was 10% or less more for all-stock compared to 67/33 stock/ITT. In 15% of those all-stock was worst than 67/33 (median 3% more, i.e. 6.18% instead of 6% MaxWR% (negligible)).

Often individual samples somewhat compared to all stock outcomes. Outside of that in cases when all-stock did much better that typically arose out of clustered samples started after recent large declines, a time when investors are less likely to opt for a asset allocation of all-stock, instead they are more inclined to opt for all-stock after recent large/fast gains - times that are more inclined to lead to a relatively low MaxWR% outcome.
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by seajay »

Since 1927 67/33 midcap stock/PM (silver pre 1976, gold from 1976) 30 year MaxWR% was better than S&P500 (total returns) in 50% of samples, median case of those = S&P500 had 0.77 times the MaxWR% of 67/33 Midcap/PM. In the 50% of cases when S&P500 had a higher MaxWR% the median case of those = a 1.14 times better MaxWR%.
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by xmj »

ochotona wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 2:04 pm
xmj wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 1:50 pm Variance matters in that it's what drives the difference between arithmetic and geometric returns

Geometric Returns = Arithmetic Return - Variance / 2.

So given two investments with identical arithmetic returns, the one with lower variance will grow faster, behavioral psychology notwithstanding.

See Arithmetic Versus Geometric Mean Conundrum for a more lengthy explanation.
That's a cool insight!
It's one of the reasons the HBPP works so well... lowering arithmetic returns while lowering variances a lot more means raising geometric returns, which is the thing that matters over the long term ;-)
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Re: Does variance matter to long term investors?

Post by Jack Jones »

Jack Jones wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 5:16 am It's cool that this optimal strategy is only as bad as 60/40 in terms of drawdowns; however, we know that we can construct portfolios with a lower pucker factor. The variance matters camp is perhaps more aware of the psychology of investing and realizes that a portfolio is only good if you can hold onto it. So they might hold a less optimal portfolio in terms of lifetime utility but might actually end up w/ more lifetime utility because they can actually maintain the course.
In this short video, it seems like N. Taleb is expressing the same idea (more eloquently):

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... robability

Another wise man once said:
Mike Tyson wrote:Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
I'll just quote this whole post, Kevin, because it's great.
Kevin K. wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 10:44 am Yeah there's a good-sized thread on that paper on Bogleheads.

It seems to me that it can't be said often or loudly enough that behavioral pyschology needs to be taken into account at least as much as portfolio construction and market history. William Bernstein is of course one of the masterful writers about this - which is why his Four PIllars of Investing (especially the new updated edition) is so essential. Tyler at Portfolio Charts is equally eloquent in his own graphics-driven way in showing what the "pucker factor" as you put it really is like if you own a portfolio. Ditto with Cullen Roche and his defined duration approach to investing:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... 20process.

Getting back to Bernstein, his advisory firm caters exclusively to high net-worth investors who are supposedly clear about their risk tolerance and have plenty of assets to weather any storm. But during the 2008 market meltdown he had people calling him up left and right wanting to abandon ship and go to cash. I'm oversimplifying here but I do know that one of the reasons Bernstein is so relentless in advocating building a liability matching portfolio (LMP) using a TIPS ladder is because he really understands that most people aren't investors, they're savers. That's why studies consistently find that folks in retirement who have pensions, annuities, SS and other forms of stable income that come as close as possible to replicating the paycheck they had during their working years are far happier - and spend far more freely - than those who by choice or out of necessity take a probabalistic approach to investing and live off of investments that fluctuate wildly in value.

At the end of the day a lot of the enduring value of the PP specifically and Harry Browne's thinking in general is in inspiring a whole range of portfolios (most of them featured prominently on Portfolio Charts) that reflect the reality that for most investors the Will Rogers quip still holds true:

“People should be more concerned with the return of their principal than the return on their principal.”
I've warmed up a lot to liability matching. Once you have confidence that your cash needs will be met for the foreseeable future, you're less likely to touch the risk-on part of your portfolio. After all, what causes someone to abandon course after a 50% drawdown is the feeling we're all familiar with: "Am I going to be okay? I don't think I can afford to lose any more money." When you know your cash needs are met, you know you'll be okay for the foreseeable future.
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