Putin Invades Ukraine II

[dualstow]

Yeah, I know. He tweets in English, too.

[I Shrugged]

Putin's ambitions are not limited to 20% of Ukraine's territory.

What’s your basis for that?

What should be done about the war?

[dualstow]

Putin’s own speeches make his lust for empire pretty clear.

[yankees60]

His goal from the start was to win the war in two weeks and install a puppet government. Therefore, no need for occupation forces.

[I Shrugged]

Putin’s own speeches make his lust for empire pretty clear.

Are we talking about Belarus, or Hungary for example?

If it's Belarus, should we fight Russia to prevent it? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I think it's a very good question. My answer is no, it's none of our business.

[dualstow]

Are we talking about Belarus, or Hungary for example?

If it's Belarus, should we fight Russia to prevent it? I'm not trying to be a jerk. I think it's a very good question. My answer is no, it's none of our business.

You’re not being a jerk at all. I was referring to all of Ukraine. I think Hungary was usually, if not always, independent of the Soviet Union, even if it was once a communist bloc nation. Belarus, on the other hand, means white Russia, and perhaps was part of the Soviet Union. (I’m ashamed I don’t know the history, as I was always told my grandfather’s ancestors were from Russia, and more recently found out they were from Belarus and Lithuania).

Belarus probably wants to be part of Russia, so I wouldn’t stop them.

[ppnewbie]

Zelensky will be at the White House today to sell his country to the US.

[yankees60]

Zelensky will be at the White House today to sell his country to the US.

11 AM -- meeting with Trump

1 PM -- joint press conference with Trump


I've recently started watching MSNBC and CNN at the same time, both of which I'd never watched. However, each will show the start of a Trump thing but then cut away at some point for commentary.

That leaves C-Span peerless as it will always show all from start to finish with both no interruptions or commentary.

[yankees60]

Fascinating seeing Trump in the middle with Zelenskyy to his right and Vance to his left.

After Vance spoke Zelenskyy is questioning Vance.


Vance is such a waste of talent.

A person of obvious high intelligence but subservients it all to being Trump's puppet.

Now Trump and Zelenskyy are arguing.

This is unprecedented!

[yankees60]

Trump is truly a national embarrassment!

You would never believe this being described in some novel!

[seajay]

Trump is truly a national embarrassment!

You would never believe this being described in some novel!

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

[coasting]

Trump is truly a national embarrassment!

You would never believe this being described in some novel!

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I'm willing to give tariffs a try - the US needs to make the important stuff at home. I'm willing to give DOGE a try - government should be smaller and minimize fraud/waste/abuse. I'm willing to give the immigration approach a try - yes we need secure borders and people should enter the country legally. But Trump is so very wrong in his stance regarding Russia and Ukraine, and I'm not willing to back him here. He really makes himself look like a Russian asset.

[seajay]

Trump is truly a national embarrassment!

You would never believe this being described in some novel!

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I'm willing to give tariffs a try - the US needs to make the important stuff at home. I'm willing to give DOGE a try - government should be smaller and minimize fraud/waste/abuse. I'm willing to give the immigration approach a try - yes we need secure borders and people should enter the country legally. But Trump is so very wrong in his stance regarding Russia and Ukraine, and I'm not willing to back him here. He really makes himself look like a Russian asset.

Russian puppet. Perhaps he sees the US as being broke and is looking to preserve his families wealth using Putin's wealth preservation network. Where does that sit the US? Ahead of NK? China ... Russia ... USA ... North Korea ... Belarus ?

[dualstow]

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I’ll make no excuses for Trump’s methods or lack of decorum in front of the camera.
But if you look at your second sentence, what you’re really saying is that Ukrainians would willfully start WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions.

It’s taken me a long time to come around to this. I’ve always been pro-Ukraine. I disagree with the, for lack of a kinder characterization, the Putin apologists. I reject the idea that NATO made Putin feel nervous and forced his hand. Everything one needs to know about Putin is how he came to power, how he deals with his opponents, the ‘traitors’, and what he says in his own speeches.

Trump is no gentleman, and that’s something we’re all going to have to live with for a while. But he’s doing the opposite of starting world war three, in my opinion. He’s trying to end this, at least for some significant amount of time.

[I Shrugged]

Just to clarify, I don’t like Putin at all. But he’s there. And just like Al Qaeda and other bad actors, if you push enough of their buttons, you bear some responsibility for what happens. Because they told everyone what their red lines were. And of course we crossed them.

And it wasn’t due to clumsiness. It was because we have all the neocons in charge of foreign policy. They’re like modern day crusaders. We must make the world safe for democracy!

We sit here with the protection of two oceans, playing with fire around the globe. Then we are shocked when it doesn’t succeed as planned.

At least Trump sees the insanity of it. He’s a piece of work, but he has the right instincts in this case.

[I Shrugged]

Here’s 8 minutes better explaining why Trump is doing the right thing, why we should be talking to Putin, and what the outcome will look like.

https://youtu.be/ZVG4YWw3Fqo?si=OkwaEbk95-huRgOX

[ppnewbie]

Very sad to watch Zelensky blow it so badly. IMHO He should resign so the war can end. Also Trump was skillfully handling Zelensky’s foolishness. Then Vance caused a serious problem. Vance is a young inexperienced guy who should have stayed quiet. If he had the deal would have closed.

[seajay]

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I’ll make no excuses for Trump’s methods or lack of decorum in front of the camera.
But if you look at your second sentence, what you’re really saying is that Ukrainians would willfully start WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions surrender.

Yes. Trump posting "doesn't want peace" -> doesn't want to surrender. Any more than if say Mexico invaded/took Texas because the US had demilitarized on promises of a security umbrella. More so when being instructed to surrender unconditionally - where whatever lines drawn today might be re-tested by Putin subsequently.

I suspect that Europe will direct towards the redrawing of border lines, ascend the remainder of Ukraine into the EU such that it comes under its common/collective defense and NATO will fade away as a relic. With much animosity towards the US (European independent production/development of military hardware/technology), along with de-dolarization and raised (reciprocated) trade barriers with the US. Former allies falling in line with much of already elevated dislike of the US, further widening the current $1Tn/year US trade deficit and where settlements are demanded in gold not dollars. Assay of Fort Knox/elsewhere US gold will I suspect reveal low grade gold, bars smelted from former Americans coins, not the regular 0.9999 fineness as per audited European bars, such that 250 million ounces assumed $759Bn gold value may be just $500Bn or less, barely enough for six months of trade deficit cover.

In short could backfire massively for the US - relatively quickly (2025), compared to spending less to hold Putin to account and the subsequent upsides from that. Feels however very much like Putin has something on Trump.

[seajay]

Very sad to watch Zelensky blow it so badly. IMHO He should resign so the war can end. Also Trump was skillfully handling Zelensky’s foolishness. Then Vance caused a serious problem. Vance is a young inexperienced guy who should have stayed quiet. If he had the deal would have closed.

Intentional/by-design, planned throwing Zelenskky out of the White House and immediate cessation of military supply by the US .... because that's what Putin instructed. Trump could and should have stamped immediately upon Vance, instead he let it run for the TV's before even jumping in himself. A choreographed quarter hour show. Zelenskky has said thanks to many and often, yet Vance kicked off with a 'have you ever said thanks' comment. When Vance was asked about had he been to Ukraine he replied that he'd read things and seen things on TV/social media.

[ppnewbie]

Very sad to watch Zelensky blow it so badly. IMHO He should resign so the war can end. Also Trump was skillfully handling Zelensky’s foolishness. Then Vance caused a serious problem. Vance is a young inexperienced guy who should have stayed quiet. If he had the deal would have closed.

Intentional/by-design, planned throwing Zelenskky out of the White House and immediate cessation of military supply by the US .... because that's what Putin instructed. Trump could and should have stamped immediately upon Vance, instead he let it run for the TV's before even jumping in himself. A choreographed quarter hour show. Zelenskky has said thanks to many and often, yet Vance kicked off with a 'have you ever said thanks' comment. When Vance was asked about had he been to Ukraine he replied that he'd read things and seen things on TV/social media.

It was very strange when Vance jumped in. Before that it all seemed like the usual Trump show. A little shake down before lunch a press conference. But then boom Vance jumps in from no where completely out of context.

I will conceded it could have been a setup. I don’t think Putin was involved but who knows.

[seajay]

Very sad to watch Zelensky blow it so badly. IMHO He should resign so the war can end. Also Trump was skillfully handling Zelensky’s foolishness. Then Vance caused a serious problem. Vance is a young inexperienced guy who should have stayed quiet. If he had the deal would have closed.

Intentional/by-design, planned throwing Zelenskky out of the White House and immediate cessation of military supply by the US .... because that's what Putin instructed. Trump could and should have stamped immediately upon Vance, instead he let it run for the TV's before even jumping in himself. A choreographed quarter hour show. Zelenskky has said thanks to many and often, yet Vance kicked off with a 'have you ever said thanks' comment. When Vance was asked about had he been to Ukraine he replied that he'd read things and seen things on TV/social media.

Vance did mention about Zelenskky having sent campaigners to Philadelphia - so clearly of child like mentality.

It was very strange when Vance jumped in. Before that it all seemed like the usual Trump show. A little shake down before lunch a press conference. But then boom Vance jumps in from no where completely out of context.

I will conceded it could have been a setup. I don’t think Putin was involved but who knows.

[yankees60]

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I’ll make no excuses for Trump’s methods or lack of decorum in front of the camera.
But if you look at your second sentence, what you’re really saying is that Ukrainians would willfully start WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions.

It’s taken me a long time to come around to this. I’ve always been pro-Ukraine. I disagree with the, for lack of a kinder characterization, the Putin apologists. I reject the idea that NATO made Putin feel nervous and forced his hand. Everything one needs to know about Putin is how he came to power, how he deals with his opponents, the ‘traitors’, and what he says in his own speeches.

Trump is no gentleman, and that’s something we’re all going to have to live with for a while. But he’s doing the opposite of starting world war three, in my opinion. He’s trying to end this, at least for some significant amount of time.

"He’s trying to end this, at least for some significant amount of time."

No. Trump just wants to end this so he can say it ended it. Then he'll have no shame in quickly bringing Russia back into the world so that $$$$ can be made off them.

Trump's putting himself into the middleperson role is a terrible position for our country.

Ukraine has never been our opponent. Russia frequently has as it currently is.

By taking on his middleperson role he's abdicating his role to stand up to Russia.

Zelenskyy is perfectly reasonable in not wanting to rely upon Trump's assurances that Russia will dare not attack Russia while Trump is president.

Assume that is so. What happens when Trump exits the scene in four years? What stops Russia from again invading Ukraine?

[yankees60]

Very sad to watch Zelensky blow it so badly. IMHO He should resign so the war can end. Also Trump was skillfully handling Zelensky’s foolishness. Then Vance caused a serious problem. Vance is a young inexperienced guy who should have stayed quiet. If he had the deal would have closed.

When you have been under stress as the president of a country for three years there is only so much restraint you can exhibit when confronted with the never-ending Trump / Vance nonsense.

The only thing Zelenskyy was guilty of was of speaking the truth.

More analysis of yesterday's historic spectacle.

A prime requirement for serving in Trump's administration is being a Hall of Fame sycophant.

Therefore it is a great shock to Trump when he is not treated with the expected ultimate obsequiousness.
He then retreats to his inner child, throws a temper tantrum, and tells you to leave his house.

[yankees60]

I fear he may just have started the WW3 nuclear war. Given the history Ukrainians might rather die rather than surrender to Russia as Trump is telling Zelenskyy to do. Multiple Chernobyl's would spread contamination globally.

I’ll make no excuses for Trump’s methods or lack of decorum in front of the camera.
But if you look at your second sentence, what you’re really saying is that Ukrainians would willfully start WW3 and nuclear war rather than make concessions surrender.

Yes. Trump posting "doesn't want peace" -> doesn't want to surrender. Any more than if say Mexico invaded/took Texas because the US had demilitarized on promises of a security umbrella. More so when being instructed to surrender unconditionally - where whatever lines drawn today might be re-tested by Putin subsequently.

I suspect that Europe will direct towards the redrawing of border lines, ascend the remainder of Ukraine into the EU such that it comes under its common/collective defense and NATO will fade away as a relic. With much animosity towards the US (European independent production/development of military hardware/technology), along with de-dolarization and raised (reciprocated) trade barriers with the US. Former allies falling in line with much of already elevated dislike of the US, further widening the current $1Tn/year US trade deficit and where settlements are demanded in gold not dollars. Assay of Fort Knox/elsewhere US gold will I suspect reveal low grade gold, bars smelted from former Americans coins, not the regular 0.9999 fineness as per audited European bars, such that 250 million ounces assumed $759Bn gold value may be just $500Bn or less, barely enough for six months of trade deficit cover.

In short could backfire massively for the US - relatively quickly (2025), compared to spending less to hold Putin to account and the subsequent upsides from that. Feels however very much like Putin has something on Trump.

"Yes. Trump posting "doesn't want peace" -> doesn't want to surrender. Any more than if say Mexico invaded/took Texas because the US had demilitarized on promises of a security umbrella. More so when being instructed to surrender unconditionally - where whatever lines drawn today might be re-tested by Putin subsequently."

Seems like a quite reasonable analysis!

[yankees60]

Very sad to watch Zelensky blow it so badly. IMHO He should resign so the war can end. Also Trump was skillfully handling Zelensky’s foolishness. Then Vance caused a serious problem. Vance is a young inexperienced guy who should have stayed quiet. If he had the deal would have closed.

Intentional/by-design, planned throwing Zelenskky out of the White House and immediate cessation of military supply by the US .... because that's what Putin instructed. Trump could and should have stamped immediately upon Vance, instead he let it run for the TV's before even jumping in himself. A choreographed quarter hour show. Zelenskky has said thanks to many and often, yet Vance kicked off with a 'have you ever said thanks' comment. When Vance was asked about had he been to Ukraine he replied that he'd read things and seen things on TV/social media.

I've stated it many times that Vance is a person of obvious high intelligence. But he's had ZERO integrity once he put power ahead of it after repudiating all the previous truths he'd stated about Trump.